Does the technical side of gaming kind of bring down the fun

[Kyle]

NES/SNES/Genesis is 99% of what I care about aside from the Cave 360 shmups.

Have an RGB PCE that annoys me because of jailbars. Also have an RGB N64 that I don't ever touch and a Saturn I might play if there was an ODE released for it.

[andykara2003]

240p is doable on the plasma, looks better than the average LCD, but still several leagues below a good CRT for me. 480i is useless.

What's your opinion on how the Samsung's 480p compared to a good CRT like my NEC XV29? I love my NEC & am looking for a backup for 480p I'm pondering whether to get the 51" Samsung or to hold out for another NEC...

[Xan]

I have the 43" myself... 480p is good, I like it, 16:9 stuff only though. My only gripes with it are that you can't switch overscan off on analog inputs and that white text on black backgrounds looks horrible because there is some sort of crazy interpolation going on (which I don't notice much at all with game graphics and text with less contrast).

[andykara2003]

Thanks v. much for that - why 16:9 only out of interest?

[Xan]

I'm a bit picky about playing games on screens with fitting aspect ratio for the game, it's something about immersion for me... and on the plasma you really have to use grey bars to be safe, that kills the immersion even more for me.

Oh, and if you care about lag, Wii pointer games do feel a bit laggier compared to a CRT, but it's right about where most modern games are still playable I think.

[andykara2003]

I'm a bit picky about playing games on screens with fitting aspect ratio for the game, it's something about immersion for me... and on the plasma you really have to use grey bars to be safe, that kills the immersion even more for me.

Same here - that's why I can't quite get into the idea of having an XRGB mini on my flat panel for 240p..

Oh, and if you care about lag, Wii pointer games do feel a bit laggier compared to a CRT, but it's right about where most modern games are still playable I think.

Cheers, I was going to ask about that

[Josh128]

I'm a bit picky about playing games on screens with fitting aspect ratio for the game, it's something about immersion for me... and on the plasma you really have to use grey bars to be safe, that kills the immersion even more for me.

Same here - that's why I can't quite get into the idea of having an XRGB mini on my flat panel for 240p..

Oh, and if you care about lag, Wii pointer games do feel a bit laggier compared to a CRT, but it's right about where most modern games are still playable I think.

Cheers, I was going to ask about that

Andy, have you seen the DKC video showing the lag vs CRT that I posted in the F4500 thread?

[andykara2003]

Sorry Josh I can't seem to find it - would you mind posting a link to the page?

[austin532]

Found it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOoi8jw01oU

[andykara2003]

Found it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOoi8jw01oU

Thanks very much

I'm so tempted to get the 43" version of this - the lag seems quite pronounced on the video though :/

[evil_ash_xero]

The thing that bums me out, is that I just cannot get into old systems on HDTVs. I have an XRGB3, and I think Super Nintendo/Genesis look pretty good. They still look too "sharp" for my liking. Lots of people like the pixely look, but I don't at all. I have a 36 inch Trinitron, and was worried that my NES would be pixelated on it. Nope. They just looked nice and smooth on the CRTs.

I really wish they would make some new ones.

I mean, can't someone put out a 20 some inch for enthusiasts? Surely, it can't be that hard to make them? Maybe they don't, since it's still so easy to find them.
Maybe in the year 2050, and most CRTs are dead or dying...then maybe they'll make one. But most of us will be dead by then, so.....

And something always doesn't work. The scanlines on the XRGB3 are kinda cruddy. So, I hook it into my SLG. Well, with my particular TV, the scanlines disappear. They work with a 360/Wii U/etc., but with an XRGB3...nothing. When stuff like this happens (and it happens too often), I just get disheartened. Like...god damn. What next?

Right now, I about have my SDTV set up all done. Just a couple of cables have to come in, and I need one more CSY 2100 (and I'll have to get it modded for audio). But then, it'll be done. Hopefully it will last. I get really paranoid, like "should I play this? Is it worth it? I don't want to fry it too soon". It's ridiculous.

I'm thinking about getting a receiver and some speakers to up the sound quality. I'm worried about interference though. Hrmm.....
Any advice on that? I was wanting some bookshelf speakers.

Have an RGB PCE that annoys me because of jailbars.

I have a PC Engine Duo, that I got from DoujinDance, a couple of years ago. And those jail bars are annoying. I sent out a PC Engine Duo R to "The Steve" to do some work on that one, and he did a "jailbar removal". It seems like it's better, but there's still some jail bars there.
It is frustrating.

[bobrocks95]

Economy of scale is one good reason to not make any CRTs. Unless they're manufacturing several hundred thousand, it's going to be way too expensive for any company to bother. There are several other reasons of course, but the gist is that company money is better spent researching new display technology or trying to improve current popular ones (LCD, OLED).

[CkRtech]

I have a PC Engine Duo, that I got from DoujinDance, a couple of years ago. And those jail bars are annoying. I sent out a PC Engine Duo R to "The Steve" to do some work on that one, and he did a "jailbar removal". It seems like it's better, but there's still some jail bars there.
It is frustrating.

Based on the reading I have done concerning mods for the PC Engine, I have held off doing an RGB mod on my Turbo Duo and still use composite.

My opinion might be spot on with the theme of this thread - I would much rather enjoy the games in "yuck composite" than have would-be-wonderful RGB and just be looking directly at jailbars while playing - essentially "bringing down the fun" so to speak.

[evil_ash_xero]

I have a PC Engine Duo, that I got from DoujinDance, a couple of years ago. And those jail bars are annoying. I sent out a PC Engine Duo R to "The Steve" to do some work on that one, and he did a "jailbar removal". It seems like it's better, but there's still some jail bars there.
It is frustrating.

Based on the reading I have done concerning mods for the PC Engine, I have held off doing an RGB mod on my Turbo Duo and still use composite.

My opinion might be spot on with the theme of this thread - I would much rather enjoy the games in "yuck composite" than have would-be-wonderful RGB and just be looking directly at jailbars while playing - essentially "bringing down the fun" so to speak.

You get used to it.

Also, when there is a lot of colors on screen, they aren't very noticeable. It's mainly on white screens, or just solid color backgrounds. Which is a lot of games, I know.

[Josh128]

The thing that bums me out, is that I just cannot get into old systems on HDTVs. I have an XRGB3, and I think Super Nintendo/Genesis look pretty good. They still look too "sharp" for my liking. Lots of people like the pixely look, but I don't at all. I have a 36 inch Trinitron, and was worried that my NES would be pixelated on it. Nope. They just looked nice and smooth on the CRTs.

I think you might appreciate how 240p systems look on the F4500 plasma we've been discussing in the thread dedicated to it. Some of the latest posts show some rather nice 240p photos. A simple CSY-2100 clone is all thats needed to get that look on this set, as its what Im using for my SNES/MD/NES/N64 systems, and I have photos of all of them except the MD (but 22point8 has that covered in his latest post).

[cuttingagent]

For someone who feels that weird need to have emulators for almost every console ever running, I actually really hate fumbling with stuff. My room is a huge mess of cables and I don't even have a TV or any consoles. I have to have my stick for awesome games, and a 360 controller for stupid games that only code support for it, and a PS3 controller for PS1 games. I mounted my flatscreen monitor in its own box with panels cut out for display, controls and venting, just so I could TATE it. Again I hate messing with stuff but once the game is running I don't regret the work it takes. Some people will buy a Neo Geo cab because they refuse to play their favourite games any other way, and some people are happy to play Zelda LTTP on their laptop keyboard in windowed mode. I'm no purist myself I do have a pretty strong inclination to put out extra effort to play the game exactly how I want to play it. It does complicate life a bit.

[scottmog]

I can see why others wouldnt want to get involved with all this RGB business. But honestly that only means they have not seen this king of clarity with their own eyes. Who uses wii component cables and says "Hell no! I want my composite cables back, its to clear."

I understand it is expensive but to me as a person who does not want a CRT and wants only a single LCD TV in my apartment the framemeister and RGB is perfect.

[Josh128]

I can see why others wouldnt want to get involved with all this RGB business. But honestly that only means they have not seen this king of clarity with their own eyes. Who uses wii component cables and says "Hell no! I want my composite cables back, its to clear."

I understand it is expensive but to me as a person who does not want a CRT and wants only a single LCD TV in my apartment the framemeister and RGB is perfect.

I was very reluctant to get into the RGB modding, etc at first...then I plugged my NES via composite into my new plasma about a year ago-- it looked so bad I almost fainted . Ive since gone RGB on every retro system I own and couldnt be happier with the results.

[mvsfan]

has anyone ever asked micomsoft why they dont just sell their xrgb outside of japan?

surely theres a market for it in the USA and Europe. look at all the guys that are importing them.

every person i talk to says the same thing - old game consoles look like crap on new tvs.



as far as the technical side spoiling things? - not really not for me.

Id have to say - only when something doesnt work.

If i build something and it works then all is good.

if it doesnt, it sucks.

[Xan]

I think most that play old games these days use emulators, that alone makes the market for devices like this quite limited. Maybe a broad marketing campaign could attract some people that still have classic consoles but Micomsoft is a small company from what I understand, that's why they don't bother with international releases.

[mvsfan]

i thought everyone would be jumping on buying real consoles now that all the projects for them are coming out like the nesrgb and the hdmi kit.

I still havent found and emulator that doesnt have some video or sound issues.

[Ed Oscuro]

I mean, can't someone put out a 20 some inch for enthusiasts? Surely, it can't be that hard to make them?

Right now it requires infrastructure that was just demolished. Even the process of making the glass envelopes (the "tube") is fairly involved-looking and probably Corning doesn't have stuff just lying around ready to make this, ditto the photolithographic process for phosphor deposition can't be cheap either. All the other parts should be fairly easy to make. I'm sure the future will bring some surprises on making custom parts manufactureable at cost, but we're definitely not there now.

Also, the regulatory agencies are getting to be pains about a lot of stuff involved in CRT (heavy metals, power use, x-rays).

Personally I'd like to see a good resolution-flexible take on laser TV or DLP that approaches or even meets the CRT's ability to do multiple resolutions and timings natively, without involving processing or x-ray emissions. It's probably not going to be made by any big company because the future is all supposed to revolve around standards / marketing buzzwords and demand for this kind of output flexibility is probably not too high, though that may change if we get a mix of FHD, UHD, 5K and whatever in the market at the same time.

It's also nice to think that this would allow the use of projectors, rather than big bulky cabinets.

[Xyga]

or even meets the CRT's ability to do multiple resolutions and timings natively, without involving processing

That will never happen again on the side of displays, but it can be done with external processors, we just need a company willing to build the ultimate all-round machine including support for any kind of resolution<>resolution scaling, smooth adaptive sync, and no lag.
Made in Wonderland of course...

[Ed Oscuro]

Never is a fairly long time - right now, as I understand it, it doesn't seem likely that something with micromirrors would be made this flexible, as they seem to be developed with fixed angles. But it's possible something that twists or otherwise alters the mirror geometry (in the case of DLPs) could be made.

That said I do admit I'm giving scalers short shrift here, as ultimately the result should be identical with a good low-lag scaler compared with a directly scanning television, unless you care about CRT look / require a scaler to do that on a flat panel array and it's too complex to do quickly with your technology. 5K, here we come? OLED certainly looks good enough as a basic technology.

[Xyga]

Oh I would picture a scaler that works fine up to 4K (should be enough but why not 5K or 8K lol) and allows the use of external filters like those fancy crt shaders, wouldn't be too hard to create. Just super expensive.
The disturbing aspect is that we wish for something that does what a computer with emulators already does for much cheaper. What company would build an external standalone machine for the same job ? They'd just say "buy a computer and a *K oled, duh"

[evil_ash_xero]

i thought everyone would be jumping on buying real consoles now that all the projects for them are coming out like the nesrgb and the hdmi kit.

I still havent found and emulator that doesnt have some video or sound issues.

I actually like the way emulated games look, on my LCD. So, the NES HDMI is really exciting. If they can start to do this with other systems, and you can have the scanlines and interpolation (if you want it), and it's adjustable....and you can have this without the in between components causing lag. Well, then it would just be a matter of finding the right TV. Which is hard enough.

But the NES HDMI looks like some kind of dream my brain came up with, and someone else made. Can't wait to see how it looks/works.

As Bela Lugosi said "This simplifies EVERYTHING!".
But it's just the beginning. At least they didn't start with Atari or something. NES is kick ass.

[mvsfan]

well the original system would have to have digital video being output from the ppu.

that is how both the hdmi kit and the nesrgb work.

on the nes ppu there are 4 pins that were just grounded from the factory. But someone took a good look and figured out that those 4 pins were capable of outputting digital video if they were no longer grounded.

other systems would have to do that as well in order to give the kit something to interpret.

Right off hand, Im sure it could be done for the gamecube since gamecube outputs digital.

i wouldnt know about other systems like snes. if the ppu outputs analog only then it would have to be done another way.

i would think on an analog video only console they would have to convert RGB to Hdmi.

[Ed Oscuro]

digital video being output from the ppu.

that is how both the hdmi kit and the nesrgb work.

I thought that they were bypassing the PPU, since it can't output RGB, let alone digital video.

[mvsfan]

nes ppu cant output rgb. but the composite ppu does have digital video lines the 4 ext pins that are normally grounded can be switched on to output digital video.

[neorichieb1971]

nes ppu cant output rgb. but the composite ppu does have digital video lines the 4 ext pins that are normally grounded can be switched on to output digital video.

So a device made in 1985 can output a signal designed for 2015? Thats great.