Does the technical side of gaming kind of bring down the fun

[bobrocks95]

If anything, dropping VGA is probably the more problematic recent loss of a connector, though thankfully affected users should be fewer as people upgrade their PCs.

All the poor Dreamcast owners...

[Josh128]

Quality issues are one thing, but a good monitor or television for handling composite can salvage most of the signal.

Most of what I am now concerned with is stuff that I put on a distinctly higher tier - things that affect my reaction or health. Reducing eye strain, across the spectrum of gaming, is going to be more a matter of dealing with 3D games properly. Of course there are edge cases where you could get some eye strain from old consoles but this is going to be pretty rare overall.

They really screwed the pooch (or us US gamers) when they decided to eliminate S-Video ports from HDTVs

That mainly affects users of y/c devices, which are relatively few and far between. Probably owners of large VHS format video collections were more influential here - still not enough to warrant that extra materials cost on HDTVs.

Most HDTVs already have a much better option than S-Video available in YPbPr component, into which you can transcode RGBs pretty easily. This means that only the few rare systems which can't do RGBs or YPbPr are left out, like the N64. Actually I'm not sure if I can think of any others.

If anything, dropping VGA is probably the more problematic recent loss of a connector, though thankfully affected users should be fewer as people upgrade their PCs.

Both N64 and SNES. The original model SNES was RGBs capable, but I have one, the output is not as good as SVideo. Yeah, I also have a huge VHS collection. That aside, have you really ever seen an HDTV where NES composite is acceptable?

[andykara2003]

The 1-chip SNES models have a much better RGB output.

[Ed Oscuro]

If anything, dropping VGA is probably the more problematic recent loss of a connector, though thankfully affected users should be fewer as people upgrade their PCs.

All the poor Dreamcast owners...

Didn't mention because some games are playable in RGB, and if you have a DVI input, you're good to go. VGA to HDMI converters are available, though I don't know how well they work.

Both N64 and SNES. The original model SNES was RGBs capable, but I have one, the output is not as good as SVideo.

So you want S-Video but not RGB.

what.

the what is strong in this one.

[BazookaBen]

Didn't mention because some games are playable in RGB, and if you have a DVI input, you're good to go.

DVI is much more rare on TV's than VGA, especially from the mid-2000's and beyond. It was pretty much only a thing before HDMI caught on. Even then, the DVI was digital only, you couldn't pass an analog signal to it.

So you want S-Video but not RGB.

what.

Well, S-video is just a much easier option for most Americans. Depending on the TV, to use RGB you at least need a YUV transcoder.

[Ed Oscuro]

Depending on the TV, to use RGB you at least need a YUV transcoder.

I feel the hollow ring of my own echo.

I'm sure you're right about the rarity of DVI on panels but remember we're in Josh's fantasy scenario here, and any modern implementation of DVI on the back of a regular HDTV would almost certainly have to be able to accept analog.

[Josh128]

If anything, dropping VGA is probably the more problematic recent loss of a connector, though thankfully affected users should be fewer as people upgrade their PCs.

All the poor Dreamcast owners...

Didn't mention because some games are playable in RGB, and if you have a DVI input, you're good to go. VGA to HDMI converters are available, though I don't know how well they work.

Both N64 and SNES. The original model SNES was RGBs capable, but I have one, the output is not as good as SVideo.

So you want S-Video but not RGB.

what.

the what is strong in this one.

No, take your "facetious" glasses off and read what I wrote. The original US NTSC model SNES has RGB out of the box, but its so blurry its essentially broken. This should be common knowledge around here. The S-Video output is far superior. Its not my problem though, as I have a SNES mini I modded for RGBs output and its beautiful. The whole point is though, I was forced to buy another SNES to get decent RGB-- if my TV had SVideo, Id have been satisfied with the SVideo from my original console.

Same with my Dreamcast and N64, no SVideo input on the set meant I needed RGB. Right now, Im using RGBs on all of my systems, except PS2, Wii, and GC, which are using component.

[Josh128]

Depending on the TV, to use RGB you at least need a YUV transcoder.

I feel the hollow ring of my own echo.

I'm sure you're right about the rarity of DVI on panels but remember we're in Josh's fantasy scenario here, and any modern implementation of DVI on the back of a regular HDTV would almost certainly have to be able to accept analog.

What are you talking about Ed? My fantasy scenario? Come on.

[bobrocks95]

I noticed a huge improvement going from S-Video to RGB on my non-1Chip SNES. Colors were much more vibrant and accurate, and there was less blurring, especially between high contrast colors like text on dark or colored backgrounds, or bright colors which would smear over S-Video. A 1-Chip looks even better, but I don't know how S-Video would look better than RGB on the original model...

[Josh128]

I noticed a huge improvement going from S-Video to RGB on my non-1Chip SNES. Colors were much more vibrant and accurate, and there was less blurring, especially between high contrast colors like text on dark or colored backgrounds, or bright colors which would smear over S-Video. A 1-Chip looks even better, but I don't know how S-Video would look better than RGB on the original model...

RGB on the original model is downright blurry, the S-video is sharp as a tack. Compared the two on my old 36" JVC SDTV, using my RGB to component converter. The image had strange color bleed and overall blur, which was not the case with the Genesis or N64 using the same RGB setup. Even so, I refrained from buying a mini until I tried my old SNES on my new plasma, still looked bad. Got a mini, wired it for amp-less RGB, the difference was night and day.

Even on my N64, which has great looking RGB, S-Video is just a tiny bit sharper. Colors are not as rich, but the edges are slightly sharper. Technically as to why this is? Not sure, but there are many users out there on many different types of equipment who have had similar experiences with S-Video vs RGB.

While close on the N64, the already poor looking RGB from the SNES makes it a no contest. I certainly didnt buy a SNES mini and go through the trouble of modding it because I wanted a 5% improvement. My original SNES's RGB just plan looks bad.

[Ed Oscuro]

I've used an RGB SNES, not a 1-chip but a revision made probably not terribly long before that, on a real RGB monitor and it looks great. The shots at RetroRGB, which is my point of reference for SNES revisions I haven't experience in person here, mainly point towards a color difference. There might be some bleed at edges but they aren't shifted or affected by dot crawl (which is still a thing in S-Video - as memory serves the line edges of the menu view in Super Metroid is a good place to spot this), so the picture elements stay where they're supposed to overall, even in this worst case.

I'm very doubtful that, using an appropriate display, that S-Video ever has an advantage over RGB on systems that natively render in RGB, except where it comes to color reproduction preference (which I don't agree with but that's beside the point).

I'm sorry you took umbrage at my use of the word "fantasy," Josh, but I mean that clinically only. I wanted to invoke the idea of something like fantasy football picks - it's not a bad thing in my view. At the same time, it's not reality. It is technically a fantasy to think that companies are going to keep up the price of materials by including obsolete connectors and support components. I think it might be nice to have S-Video processing, maybe by including a splitter cable going from S-Video to some of the component connectors which then can treat the inputs as Y/V, but for all the millions of TVs sold in a year the traditional s-video connectors would see essentially no use, and any manufacturer can view that as a discrete chunk off their bottom line.

In terms of "the most good for the most many," I think affected parties can look at getting a decent transcoder. $50 should do it. For VHS users, many of these users already have devices with s-video input and transcoding, like a DVD recorder. Many years ago I bought a Datavideo DAC-200 for similar purposes.

Of course it's not as nice as having it built into all panels, but for the company, that's translating to at least cents off each unit sold, and probably the equivalent of many thousands of dollars for something that will mostly get laughed at and sage chin rubs from the elders.

[Josh128]

I've used an RGB SNES, not a 1-chip but a revision made probably not terribly long before that, on a real RGB monitor and it looks great. The shots at RetroRGB, which is my point of reference for SNES revisions I haven't experience in person here, mainly point towards a color difference. There might be some bleed at edges but they aren't shifted or affected by dot crawl (which is still a thing in S-Video - as memory serves the line edges of the menu view in Super Metroid is a good place to spot this), so the picture elements stay where they're supposed to overall, even in this worst case.

I'm very doubtful that, using an appropriate display, that S-Video ever has an advantage over RGB on systems that natively render in RGB, except where it comes to color reproduction preference (which I don't agree with but that's beside the point).

I'm sorry you took umbrage at my use of the word "fantasy," Josh, but I mean that clinically only. I wanted to invoke the idea of something like fantasy football picks - it's not a bad thing in my view. At the same time, it's not reality. It is technically a fantasy to think that companies are going to keep up the price of materials by including obsolete connectors and support components. I think it might be nice to have S-Video processing, maybe by including a splitter cable going from S-Video to some of the component connectors which then can treat the inputs as Y/V, but for all the millions of TVs sold in a year the traditional s-video connectors would see essentially no use, and any manufacturer can view that as a discrete chunk off their bottom line.

In terms of "the most good for the most many," I think affected parties can look at getting a decent transcoder. $50 should do it. For VHS users, many of these users already have devices with s-video input and transcoding, like a DVD recorder. Many years ago I bought a Datavideo DAC-200 for similar purposes.

Of course it's not as nice as having it built into all panels, but for the company, that's translating to at least cents off each unit sold, and probably the equivalent of many thousands of dollars for something that will mostly get laughed at and sage chin rubs from the elders.

Perhaps my issues with the SNES 1 were somehow related to my component converter, but since everything else looks great through it, Im strongly inclined to think otherwise.

[Josh128]

I noticed a huge improvement going from S-Video to RGB on my non-1Chip SNES. Colors were much more vibrant and accurate, and there was less blurring, especially between high contrast colors like text on dark or colored backgrounds, or bright colors which would smear over S-Video. A 1-Chip looks even better, but I don't know how S-Video would look better than RGB on the original model...

Bob/Ed, just posted new some pictures illustrating the problems of the original model SNES RGB out in the F4500 thread. Also included some SVideo shots from one of my CRTs, and you can clearly see the white bleed present on the RGB out is not present in the SVideo shots.

Regarding the SVideo, I was not able to show a direct comparison on the CRT because it does not have component inputs, but during my original testing the RGB looked even worse on my old 36" JVC CRT (which I no longer have) than they do on the F4500 plasma, so I dont know what I else I can do to show you.

[Josh128]

I've used an RGB SNES, not a 1-chip but a revision made probably not terribly long before that, on a real RGB monitor and it looks great. The shots at RetroRGB, which is my point of reference for SNES revisions I haven't experience in person here, mainly point towards a color difference. There might be some bleed at edges but they aren't shifted or affected by dot crawl (which is still a thing in S-Video - as memory serves the line edges of the menu view in Super Metroid is a good place to spot this), so the picture elements stay where they're supposed to overall, even in this worst case.

I'm very doubtful that, using an appropriate display, that S-Video ever has an advantage over RGB on systems that natively render in RGB, except where it comes to color reproduction preference (which I don't agree with but that's beside the point).

Actually, dot crawl is not a thing in SVideo-- SVideo eliminates it, based on both my experience on SNES, Gamecube, DVD players and DirecTV receivers and the technical reasons as to what causes dot crawl. The difference is extremely easy to see in 480i content, but if you look close at certain colors you can see it 240p as well-- when switching from a composite to SVideo out the dot crawl is clearly present in composite, especially in older sets lacking a good comb filter-- but its entirely absent in almost all cases using S-Video. There are some exceptions where the set itself or the outputting device may not do a good job of either separating or recombining the separate Y/C from Svideo, thus still showing some interference products or dot crawl, but this is definitely the exception and not the rule.

This is because dot crawl is caused by crosstalk between the chroma and luma signals muxed together in a composite signal. S-Video on the other hand, physically separates the chroma and luma signals, PRECISELY so they dont interfere with each other. This is the actually the ENTIRE POINT of S-Video!!

Your in the UK no? Im in the US-- SVideo was the only option we had for YEARS prior to component being included on sets in the late 90's and early 2000s-- and I used it extensively on my DVD players, DirecTV receivers, SNES, PS1, and Gamecube until the component options became available. When I tell you I have seen it eliminate dot crawl, you can take that to the bank, my man!

Some more info to back up the dot crawl issue below:

However, no comb filter can totally eliminate NTSC artifacts and the only complete solutions to dot crawl are not to use NTSC or PAL composite video, maintaining the signals separately by using S-Video or component video connections instead, or encoding the chrominance signal differently as in SECAM or any modern digital video standard as long as the source video has never been processed using any video system vulnerable to dot crawl.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-Video

http://lyberty.com/encyc/articles/svideo.html

http://www.michaeldvd.com.au/Articles/V ... Crawl.html

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/18-dvd-pl ... osite.html

http://www.ehow.com/facts_5682064_s_vid ... cable.html

[Ed Oscuro]

So you can read Wikipedia and eHow too? I thought that only the ancient sages knew of these holy texts.

Even if I have written something technically untrue, there is absolutely no call for a response like this, no matter how much sand has lodged in your orifices based on the less than completely trusting responses to your own many questioned statements here.

I'm not going to blow up and insist that everybody should immediately credulously believe my admittedly years-old memory (I even wrote "as memory serves," what more do you want?), but it is interesting how you've repeatedly stated things like "the pictures serve it no justice" and have tried to use your own unverifiable experience as the final word on any subject when we have questions, but when I bring up something that is only tenuously connected to the overall discussion here (RGB vs. S-Video, which honestly is not a discussion worth having even once, yet again - I've already said that I'm willing to agree that S-Video could be preferred for one reason or another, and in general I'm happy to say there's no problem testing out all varieties of connection on hardware for personal preference) you bring down the fuckin hammer! Wikipedia and eHow! Holy shit you put the eKibosh on me sir!!

If you want to be trusted and not universally hated then let's take a deep breath and start being reasonable and declawed a bit, huh?

I am afraid I cannot test exactly for the situation I described because I don't have the same television (a cheap decoder could explain some video anomalies). In fact I realize since I've written that, that perhaps the problem is that I was trying to get S-Video out of a SNES mini, though that doesn't agree with my memory that it was nevertheless improved.

It's also worth mentioning that there are some reports of "dot crawl" on S-Video systems, i.e.:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/18-dvd-pl ... osite.html
https://twitter.com/flarerdb/status/430084783004073984 (though again, could be a case of mistaken identity)

[Xan]

Is this a pissing contest now?

[Ed Oscuro]

I've been reminded that I tend to get into these, and I try not to, but don't shoot the messenger saying what everybody else has noticed about Josh's posts. As I see it, I'm just saying that we ought to live and let live here. There's no reason to get super agitated over people saying wrong things if you can correct them, but we should all know that these questions also aren't always straightforward.

[Josh128]

So you can read Wikipedia and eHow too? I thought that only the ancient sages knew of these holy texts.

Even if I have written something technically untrue, there is absolutely no call for a response like this, no matter how much sand has lodged in your orifices based on the less than completely trusting responses to your own many questioned statements here.

I'm not going to blow up and insist that everybody should immediately credulously believe my admittedly years-old memory (I even wrote "as memory serves," what more do you want?), but it is interesting how you've repeatedly stated things like "the pictures serve it no justice" and have tried to use your own unverifiable experience as the final word on any subject when we have questions, but when I bring up something that is only tenuously connected to the overall discussion here (RGB vs. S-Video, which honestly is not a discussion worth having even once, yet again - I've already said that I'm willing to agree that S-Video could be preferred for one reason or another, and in general I'm happy to say there's no problem testing out all varieties of connection on hardware for personal preference) you bring down the fuckin hammer! Wikipedia and eHow! Holy shit you put the eKibosh on me sir!!

If you want to be trusted and not universally hated then let's take a deep breath and start being reasonable and declawed a bit, huh?

Not sure what you found so offensive about my post, except maybe for the large caps (OK yes, they are aggravating). Otherwise I dont see what so offensive about it, other than it did not agree with what you wrote about S-video vs. dot crawl.

I only listed some references because once again, a lot of people around here seem to be content to make "matter of fact" statements in direct opposition to my own statements (such as the SNES 1 RGB vs S-Video deal). So, rather than just make short "matter of fact" statements right back, I cite a few references to back me up-- so now other than tell me Im wrong on whatever I say, you also want to limit me on, or tell me how, I should explain why I say what I say?

You need to remember you were the one who chose to argue this whole S-Video point, not me. I simply stated an opinion (that I wished S-Video ports had not been dropped from HDTVs) and you absolutely could not resist the opportunity to tell me how useless you thought they were.

Personally, apparently unlike you, when someone refutes something I say I welcome as much info and references as they can muster to back it up, not something like "S-Video sucks, its a well known fact" and Im supposed to just shut up and take that as gospel?

[Ed Oscuro]

Personally, apparently unlike you, when someone refutes something I say I welcome as much info and references as they can muster to back it up,

Then perhaps we can lay to rest your arguments about S-Video being superior to RGB on the SNES.

I literally just said that I like to be corrected, but you've chosen just to parrot the words back at me. It's the matter of being respectful that's the issue, not pride. I'm not sure how you fail to see how incredibly condescending and offensive throwing in everything and the kitchen sink is here. Please, no walls of text to make a simple point. You're coming to an enthusiast website and you're going to lecture and amaze the natives (who run real pro CRT monitors) with eHow? You also missed the point - people have been fairly pointed in questioning some of your assertions, because some of the things you're saying (i.e. S-Video on the SNES is better than RGB) are not backed up by evidence...in the general case. I think people have been fairly reasonable in acknowledging that there may be unique cases or personal preferences here, so nobody is saying that you're wrong to prefer S-Video on a particular setup. But then you turn around and slam me over my qualified memory. Figure out what side you want to play here, but don't try to have it both ways.

[Josh128]

Personally, apparently unlike you, when someone refutes something I say I welcome as much info and references as they can muster to back it up,

Then perhaps we can lay to rest your arguments about S-Video being superior to RGB on the SNES.

I literally just said that I like to be corrected, but you've chosen just to parrot the words back at me. It's the matter of being respectful that's the issue, not pride. I'm not sure how you fail to see how incredibly condescending and offensive throwing in everything and the kitchen sink is here. Please, no walls of text to make a simple point. You're coming to an enthusiast website and you're going to lecture and amaze the natives (who run real pro CRT monitors) with eHow? You also missed the point - people have been fairly pointed in questioning some of your assertions, because some of the things you're saying (i.e. S-Video on the SNES is better than RGB) are not backed up by evidence...in the general case. I think people have been fairly reasonable in acknowledging that there may be unique cases or personal preferences here, so nobody is saying that you're wrong to prefer S-Video on a particular setup. But then you turn around and slam me over my qualified memory. Figure out what side you want to play here, but don't try to have it both ways.

So, when you posted "What? The What is Strong with this one" a few posts back, that was being respectful? No sir, I believe that was the the first disrespectful comment made in this thread, and it was made by you. "Let he who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone."-John 8:7

Whats your hangup with Ehow anyway? Can you be any more condescending? Should I have posted an MIT whitepaper instead? It was simply one of many references one that first pop up with a quick web search.

Also, yes, since I posted S-Video looks better than RGB on MY SNES 1, lets indeed put it to rest. Ive already posted pictures of how crap it looks, and how the issues present in it are not present in the same consoles S-Video. Lets do it.

[ApolloBoy]

Personally, apparently unlike you, when someone refutes something I say I welcome as much info and references as they can muster to back it up,

Then perhaps we can lay to rest your arguments about S-Video being superior to RGB on the SNES.

Goddammit he said on the early model SNES, not the SNES in general. And yes, earlier models of the SNES/Super Fami have pretty blurry RGB to the point where there's very little difference between the two outputs. I just tried a comparison on my Super Fami (which has an SHVC-CPU-01 board) and even I was hard pressed to tell the difference between S-vid and RGB. On the 1chip and mini however, RGB is definitely better than S-vid.

Whats your hangup with Ehow anyway? Can you be any more condescending? Should I have posted an MIT whitepaper instead? It was simply one of many references one that first pop up with a quick web search.

Ed tends to be pretentious as fuck most of the time, I'm not surprised.

[Ed Oscuro]

Look at this...three prickly people getting on each others' nerves. In my defense I'm not making out of school comments and offending people purposefully. To summarize what I think I should say now:

- Some of these system designs seem to have different optimized outputs. (NFG's look at the various Neo Geo revisions looks like a classic case of this - some appeared to have better composite or RGB, but not both.)
- I'm not ready to believe that S-Video on the SNES is ever better than RGB, even for a particular revision, based on what I've seen so far. It could be. But in general this is not a correct statement, especially if we're going to default to throwing around context-free Wikipedia links. Implementation matters! Cue Rorschach in his smelly coat jotting down "more research needed"
- What Josh's screenshots seem most likely to indicate to me is that there are lots of factors that could produce strange anomalies. Is it the system? aging psu? cable? transcoder? the display? Is this normal at all?
- The only general statement about quality I'm happy to agree with is that every combination of display type, system, cable and transcoder can output different quality, so nothing should be assumed to be the best always. With aging systems it might even vary from system to system.
- If I could have my wishes granted, I'd have liked RGB inputs in televisions rather than S-Video, if I had a choice. But it's always good to be reminded of what people actually have to work with.

Yes, I'm a little bit sensitive to being linkbombed with things I'm assumed not to know - for my part I will avoid making comments that are rude.

[neorichieb1971]

This thread is brilliant.. Its somehow answered itself without an answer.

[Kyle]

I enjoy this thread a good deal as well.

I'm trying to figure out what I'm doing. We're moving from our little starter house that I have littered with WEGAs and PVMs to a much nicer house where I don't think a CRT will fly. My HDTV has low lag and accepts 240p. I just don't enjoy the idea of gaming on it. There's something indefinable that makes it less attractive than the CRT. Maybe I just need to suck it up and get a Framemeister. I already have all of my consoles RGB modded. I'm just spooked I won't be happy enough with the end result. Thoughts?

[Xan]

I'd keep the CRTs for sure. As far as I'm concerned, Micomsoft needs to get their act together and release a unit without any compromises, but even then I'd prefer a CRT.

[Ed Oscuro]

If you suck it up, there's more room left for CRTs

Currently my thinking is like this:

240p = Wega or whatever most economical size of CRT you can get
Arcade and RGB sources specially = 20" PVM should be fine
480p and above = the best HDTV you can find

It's that last point that's the sticker, IMO. Still I don't think the one or at most two frames found on plasmas is going to ruin very many console games.

[Josh128]

I enjoy this thread a good deal as well.

I'm trying to figure out what I'm doing. We're moving from our little starter house that I have littered with WEGAs and PVMs to a much nicer house where I don't think a CRT will fly. My HDTV has low lag and accepts 240p. I just don't enjoy the idea of gaming on it. There's something indefinable that makes it less attractive than the CRT. Maybe I just need to suck it up and get a Framemeister. I already have all of my consoles RGB modded. I'm just spooked I won't be happy enough with the end result. Thoughts?

This is part of the reason Im so fond of the plasmas, especially the 720p/XGA ones. They are the closest thing to a flat panel CRT you can get. Ive always been a CRT guy, never even owned an LCD cause I just dont like how they look. I had to make a move last year and I went 51" 720p plasma-- Im very satisfied with it, and I DONT have a Framemeister, just a $50 RGB to Component converter. I have a 1080p one also, but I rather the 720p panel for all my gaming from NES to 360 ( I dont have PS4 or Xbone).

They are practically giving away the set Ive been preaching about on the other thread-- but pretty soon there wont be any new ones left.

[SGGG2]

Kyle, the solution here is obvious: Keep the CRT's (even if they're kept in storage) and buy a Framemeister anyway.

[Kyle]

Yeah the CRTs will go in storage regardless.

I've been playing around both with connecting to my current TV via the SCART to component box and emulators via Retroarch since I already have a TV on the PC. The picture on the converter isn't good enough. The emulators are okay but feel lame when I have just about every old console already RGB ready.

It sounds like for the price of the Framemeister I could get the plasma being discussed. I may go that route and get the Framemeister next if that doesn't do it for me.

[Xan]

240p is doable on the plasma, looks better than the average LCD, but still several leagues below a good CRT for me. 480i is useless.