When did Arcade games stopped having scanlines?

[the_importer]

Before or after SEGA's NAOMI system?

[Iron Peach]

When arcade operators began replacing CRTs with cheaper and more available lcd panels. Even I had to look twice at the Pac-Man machine to know what was under the bezel...

[the_importer]

When arcade operators began replacing CRTs with cheaper and more available lcd panels. Even I had to look twice at the Pac-Man machine to know what was under the bezel...

That's not really answering the question. I could indeed replace a CRT monitor out of any old arcade cabinet with a LCD panel, but the game would be upscale. Games wit scanlines were programmed with that in mind.

[kamiboy]

When 31khz arcade games started showing up. Prolly in the late 90's.

Though I believe that mid res (24khz) games didn't have scanlines either. That strange resolution was mostly used by SEGA, since the late 80's.

[Crafty+Mech]

When 31khz arcade games started showing up. Prolly in the late 90's.

Though I believe that mid res (24khz) games didn't have scanlines either. That strange resolution was mostly used by SEGA, since the late 80's.

And Atari System 2: Paperboy, 720, Championship sprint, etc..

Med Res monitors had scanlines, just much less noticeable. VGA CRTs have scanlines as well, but they are very fine and difficult to notice unless you are right up against the tube.

[Xan]

X68000 and Namco System 12 could do 24 kHz as well, AFAIK.

[kamiboy]

That is correct, a few Japanese personal computers were capable of 24khz.

[system11]

There is no correct answer, varies on a per game basis. Flatscreens appeared more as more PC hardware went into service.

[the_importer]

There is no correct answer, varies on a per game basis. Flatscreens appeared more as more PC hardware went into service.

Well then let's go by my favorites then:

-CPSI
-CPSII
-CPSIII
-Model 1
-Model 2
-Model 3
-NAOMI
-MVS

[system11]

There is no correct answer, varies on a per game basis. Flatscreens appeared more as more PC hardware went into service.

Well then let's go by my favorites then:

-CPSI
-CPSII
-CPSIII
-Model 1
-Model 2
-Model 3
-NAOMI
-MVS

All of these came out when CRTs were the standard issue. Flat screens started to appear in dedicated machines much later on, and then eventually in generics like the Viewlix.

[Ed Oscuro]

For the sake of clarity, you mean flat panel displays, right? I don't think there are any flat screen CRTs in arcade machines, or at least not in any well-known generic cabinets.

"By each game" is more or less the answer I was thinking of. When you move to progressive-scan displays - 240p is really just a timing hack and meant to run on interlaced displays - blank scanlines don't appear. Of course I suppose we can be really pedantic and say that any game with raster displays will have scanlines, since each line of resolution is a scanline (at least on CRT, where the electron beam scans across the screen).

But to back up a second - any game that has no blank lines of resolution will lose blank scanlines. I think this started in earnest around the Dreamcast era, maybe a bit earlier as with some of the early high-res 3D Sega stuff, when you had 31KHz displays and more powerful 3D hardware allowing more detail to appear in common cabinets. But there certainly were unusual examples much earlier, and of course whole classes of hardware, like the classic vector displays, don't fit into this discussion at all.

[the_importer]

For the sake of clarity, you mean flat panel displays, right? I don't think there are any flat screen CRTs in arcade machines, or at least not in any well-known generic cabinets.

"By each game" is more or less the answer I was thinking of. When you move to progressive-scan displays - 240p is really just a timing hack and meant to run on interlaced displays - blank scanlines don't appear. Of course I suppose we can be really pedantic and say that any game with raster displays will have scanlines, since each line of resolution is a scanline (at least on CRT, where the electron beam scans across the screen).

But to back up a second - any game that has no blank lines of resolution will lose blank scanlines. I think this started in earnest around the Dreamcast era, maybe a bit earlier as with some of the early high-res 3D Sega stuff, when you had 31KHz displays and more powerful 3D hardware allowing more detail to appear in common cabinets. But there certainly were unusual examples much earlier, and of course whole classes of hardware, like the classic vector displays, don't fit into this discussion at all.

I guess this has indeed gotten confusing, so let me clarify. When I say scanlines, I do mean black lines in between 2 lines of images, what we know with NTSC consoles to be 240p. I don't count interlace (480i) to have scanlines do to the fact that they flicker so fast that we don't really see them. Basically, I'm trying to find out (or more like remember), if the old arcade games I use to play had those black line like our old game systems, hence why I listed my favorites.

[Ed Oscuro]

When I say 480i, I mean the video system allows 240p. 240p is just 480i with the lines' timing altered so each line appears on the same physical space every time, instead of alternating as in the 480i standard.

So if you have a 480i game with that altered timing, it's going to have blank (black) scanlines. If you have a 480i game that runs interlaced - there have to have been some - you won't see that.

And if you have a game that runs a higher resolution, like some kind of 31KHz signal with 480 progressive lines of resolution or more, the blank space you see between scanlines, if any, is going to be down to the model of tube and the resolution running on it. My old Windows 95 PC + no-brand PC monitor shows very definite scanlines, though they're for progressive content and considerably different from 240p type blank scanlines.

Going by your list, maybe the Sega Model 2? That one certainly supports progressive resolutions. Though, like system11 said, there could be some games that run 240p on hardware that is primarily meant to be 480p or similar (though the Model 2 was expensive enough I doubt this was done).

Speaking of things, where's the scanlines in all these screenshots? That is one funky looking monitor for the Tec War photoset, too.

[the_importer]

That video probably answered part of my questions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_4RN0ui6z0

These people hooked SF Alpha to a Super Gun and in turn into a SONY Trinitron CRT. The game is running at 480i since there's no visible scanlines. So unless the Super Gun upscales to 480i, looks like CPS2 games weren't programmed with a 240p resolution in mind, only their console ports like on Saturn and PS1 got the downgrade.

On the other hand, NEO-GEO MVS games seem to have been programmed with scanlines in mind: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFkQdrKksks

[muckyfingers]

That video probably answered part of my questions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_4RN0ui6z0

These people hooked SF Alpha to a Super Gun and in turn into a SONY Trinitron CRT. The game is running at 480i since there's no visible scanlines. So unless the Super Gun upscales to 480i, looks like CPS2 games weren't programmed with a 240p resolution in mind, only their console ports like on Saturn and PS1 got the downgrade.

On the other hand, NEO-GEO MVS games seem to have been programmed with scanlines in mind: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFkQdrKksks

No, the scanlines are certainly there on SFA, you just can't see it because of the loq quality video. Also scanlines are more pronounced depending on the display being used. For example a Sony PVM vs an NEC XM29. The NEC monitor will have thick, fat, and very noticeable scanlines when running the exact same game vs a PVM.

[kamiboy]

Only 240p games have what we call scanlines. Once arcade games started adopting other resolutions, namely 31khz, scanlines ceased to exist.

Look up the signal specs of arcade hardware, if it is 31khz it does not produce scanlines.

[system11]

Only 240p games have what we call scanlines. Once arcade games started adopting other resolutions, namely 31khz, scanlines ceased to exist.

Look up the signal specs of arcade hardware, if it is 31khz it does not produce scanlines.

Yes it does, it's a visual flaw in the image arising from how CRTs work.

Additionally physical screen size and model makes a huge difference, on some older machines even a low res image produced barely visible scanlines, while running the same game on a much more modern screen with less haze/bloom around each line of the picture makes them more pronounced. For an extreme example of this run something like Donkey Kong on a 29" Toshiba trisync, looks horrible - there's as much scanline as image leading to a dull lifeless picture. Exact same game on a 19" in a Nintendo cocktail cab and the lines are barely visible.

So the only possible answer to the OP question is 'when the games stopped shipping with CRTs', which is a fuzzy line. luckily for him he only seems to care about stuff up to Naomi age, and all of that was CRT.

[kamiboy]

I disagree, what the OP, and most users here, define as scanlines are only visible in a 240p signal displayed on certain CRT's, especially on vast majority of CRT's used in the arcades back in the day, which is where the OP's interests seem to lie. Sure, that is not the correct use of the term, but it is the one oft used.

I assume the OP is fishing for a clear answer in layman's terms that disregards finer details rather than a fuzzy one where we break out the magnifying glass and give a lesson in the true meaning and technical details behind the term scanline.

Of course I am just assuming here, so by all means, OP, do let us know what interests you more.

[system11]

I disagree, what the OP, and most users here, define as scanlines are only visible in a 240p signal displayed on certain CRT's, especially on vast majority of CRT's used in the arcades back in the day, which is where the OP's interests seem to lie. Sure, that is not the correct use of the term, but it is the one oft used.

I assume the OP is fishing for a clear answer in layman's terms that disregards finer details rather than a fuzzy one where we break out the magnifying glass and give a lesson in the true meaning and technical details behind the term scanline.

Of course I am just assuming here, so by all means, OP, do let us know what interests you more.

You can't just make up definitions. He asked when games stopped having scanlines. Answer: when CRTs stopped being used. That is the only answer, every CRT has scanlines and the size/model/age/resolution/condition/adjustments all affect how clearly these can be seen - as such it's a nearly meaningless question unless you purely consider the display technology in use. I have a 31khz game which is PC based where the scanlines are clearly visible because the CRT is a monster 38".

[kamiboy]

Well, when words are used in a new context enough many times they come to adopt a new meaning.

The term scanline is used very often here in the hardware section and it is almost always used to refer to the easily visible thick black space between two raster lines when a 240p signal is displayed on certain CRT monitors. I have almost never seen it used to describe a generic raster line drawn on a CRT, which is the correct technical definition.

The OP himself explained that the former was what he was referring to.

I'd say that we need a new word to describe the former, but why bother when hardly anyone uses scanline to refer to the latter.

[the_importer]

I disagree, what the OP, and most users here, define as scanlines are only visible in a 240p signal displayed on certain CRT's, especially on vast majority of CRT's used in the arcades back in the day, which is where the OP's interests seem to lie. Sure, that is not the correct use of the term, but it is the one oft used.

I assume the OP is fishing for a clear answer in layman's terms that disregards finer details rather than a fuzzy one where we break out the magnifying glass and give a lesson in the true meaning and technical details behind the term scanline.

Of course I am just assuming here, so by all means, OP, do let us know what interests you more.

Actually, you hit the nail right on the head, I couldn't have pout it better myself.

[system11]

Well, when words are used in a new context enough many times they come to adopt a new meaning.

The term scanline is used very often here in the hardware section and it is almost always used to refer to the easily visible thick black space between two raster lines when a 240p signal is displayed on certain CRT monitors. I have almost never seen it used to describe a generic raster line drawn on a CRT, which is the correct technical definition.

When words are used incorrectly lots of times it just means they're incorrect and more people need educating.

As you say the 'scanline' is actually the bit you can see anyway, when you can see scanlines it's because they're thin enough and spaced out enough that you can make out the fact that they're individual lines, which as I've said wasn't always the case due to screen sizes and adjustment, and indeed how far people are sitting from them..

The signals from old arcade games aren't even 240p anyway, they're a vast number of slight variations which can be displayed on a 15khz screen - this has been one of the constant issues for emulation and why it's impossible to achieve a perfect display for some games without using a CRT.

But then we come back to the point that half way up I already answered his question, visible scanlines went away when CRTs did and all the systems he cared about in that list would have had them on display hardware of the time to some extent.

This is a hardware section. Let's keep it technical and correct, it's no place for people deciding to agree that trees are blue, because they just aren't.

[emphatic]

Sometimes I wonder if people haven't seen a CRT IRL. Sure, high res games on a HD CRT are less visible than the thick ones on a low res CRT, but THEY ARE STILL THERE.

[kamiboy]

I disagree, what the OP, and most users here, define as scanlines are only visible in a 240p signal displayed on certain CRT's, especially on vast majority of CRT's used in the arcades back in the day, which is where the OP's interests seem to lie. Sure, that is not the correct use of the term, but it is the one oft used.

I assume the OP is fishing for a clear answer in layman's terms that disregards finer details rather than a fuzzy one where we break out the magnifying glass and give a lesson in the true meaning and technical details behind the term scanline.

Of course I am just assuming here, so by all means, OP, do let us know what interests you more.

Actually, you hit the nail right on the head, I couldn't have pout it better myself.

Then I hope you got your answer. 31 and 24khz arcade games don't have scanlines. There was no hard limit for when arcade boards switched to 31khz as 240p actually remained a favourite long after technology made higher resolutions economically feasible.

[Crafty+Mech]

Well, when words are used in a new context enough many times they come to adopt a new meaning.

The term scanline is used very often here in the hardware section and it is almost always used to refer to the easily visible thick black space between two raster lines when a 240p signal is displayed on certain CRT monitors. I have almost never seen it used to describe a generic raster line drawn on a CRT, which is the correct technical definition.

When words are used incorrectly lots of times it just means they're incorrect and more people need educating.

As you say the 'scanline' is actually the bit you can see anyway, when you can see scanlines it's because they're thin enough and spaced out enough that you can make out the fact that they're individual lines, which as I've said wasn't always the case due to screen sizes and adjustment, and indeed how far people are sitting from them..

The signals from old arcade games aren't even 240p anyway, they're a vast number of slight variations which can be displayed on a 15khz screen - this has been one of the constant issues for emulation and why it's impossible to achieve a perfect display for some games without using a CRT.

But then we come back to the point that half way up I already answered his question, visible scanlines went away when CRTs did and all the systems he cared about in that list would have had them on display hardware of the time to some extent.

This is a hardware section. Let's keep it technical and correct, it's no place for people deciding to agree that trees are blue, because they just aren't.

Quoted for truth + infinity!

[Crafty+Mech]

ur answer. 31 and 24khz arcade games don't have scanlines. There was no hard limit for when arcade boards switched to 31khz as 240p actually remained a favourite long after technology made higher resolutions economically feasible.

Using your definition of a scanline (the blank space between raster lines) 31k and 24k CRT monitors do have scanlines, they are just fine and harder to see (in particular for VGA). The effect is more pronounced on a Medium Res arcade monitor, and you don't need a magnifying glass. If you look at a medium res arcade game like PaperBoy in person, you will see scanlines!

[Ed Oscuro]

There hasn't been any insistence on people changing their terminology when people talk about scanline generation. To accomodate the question I prefer the term blank scanline which gets at the meaning and is still technically correct.

FWIW, on many high-resolution CRT monitors there weren't visible inter-scanline lines any more than there are on LCD panels, especially ones from the era.