Cave games ranked by difficulty

[Bananamatic]

stage 1 boss was harder in WL
i think the needle spambots in the stage 3 second half shoot more bullets in WL
stage 3 boss final attack has a second phase with slower/smaller/denser bullets in BL
2-2 boss is way easier in BL
hibachi now shoots small and large bullets during washing machine instead of only large ones

idk what else was changed but WL definitely feels harder

[Jonst]

^ all correct. For those that know how to play the game. My question remains though, aside from personsl taste, why isn't it standard in everyone's clear list's if its so easy?

It's a hori, and people don't seem to like the mix of bullet hell + hori.
I guess it's just that people don't play it. It isn't on mame either

Yeah, I've heard this a few times before, it's just that you don't hear this kind of stuff about deathsmiles. Sure, that's an easy game and some people don't like the theme but it never gets hate just for being a hori! And as for ak having a contrived/complex scoring system (for some) isn't espguda 2 fairly contrived? Again, I've never heard espgaluda 2 get hate for it.
It just pisses me off I guess because I love ak, it's well worth the initial effort to get into it. The weak excuses about why people don't like it always irritate me! (It's my problem).

[Jonst]

This might sound stupid but I just get confused with Akai Katana, often I just hit the wrong button and it leads to disaster. It feels really unintuitive to me.

What mode are you playing?

[Erppo]

Before, if a player picked up a bee icon worth 30% Hyper while at 99% full Hyper Gauge, they would gain 129% Hyper, enough to generate an item. However, the extra 29% did not carry over to the new bar, and was just thrown away. In Black Label, that extra 29% is now properly carried over into the next Hyper bar.

But this is not true. Bees don't carry over in either version. Why would it be a bug anyway? I don't really thing HG101 can be called a reliable source. The same text also claims the loop is harder in BL which is obviously nonsense.

[Skykid]

idk what else was changed but WL definitely feels harder

Yeah, for sure.

At my playing peak I'd just got the 1cc on BL at home and went to Casino for a mini meet and attempted to do the same on the WL in the cab for the entertainment of mah boyz.

Game kicked me out good about a third into stage 5 after which I remember declaring it was definitely tougher.

I never noticed the little bits you picked up on tho. Interesting.

[Skykid]

^ all correct. For those that know how to play the game. My question remains though, aside from personsl taste, why isn't it standard in everyone's clear list's if its so easy?

It's a hori, and people don't seem to like the mix of bullet hell + hori.
I guess it's just that people don't play it. It isn't on mame either

Yeah, I've heard this a few times before, it's just that you don't hear this kind of stuff about deathsmiles. Sure, that's an easy game and some people don't like the theme but it never gets hate just for being a hori! And as for ak having a contrived/complex scoring system (for some) isn't espguda 2 fairly contrived? Again, I've never heard espgaluda 2 get hate for it.
It just pisses me off I guess because I love ak, it's well worth the initial effort to get into it. The weak excuses about why people don't like it always irritate me! (It's my problem).

Akai Katana is a beautiful thing. Galuda 2 does get some shit for being unintuitive though, although I dont consider either it or AK to be overly difficult to get to grips with

AK Shin is where my heart lies. Just too cathartic when you let those blades fly.

[n0rtygames]

The weak excuses about why people don't like it always irritate me! (It's my problem).

It's more annoying when people act like you're some kind of drooling retard just because the game hasn't really "clicked" for you yet though. I just don't really dig AK... sorry. Not my game. Not gonna bash it, some people have fun with it..

One day we'll go back to playing shmups for clears and scores instead of arguing over which shmup is "da best"

Because it is clearly Mushihimesama Futari Black Label Original Mode

and I will not be told differently.

[Skykid]

One day we'll go back to playing shmups for clears and scores instead of arguing over which shmup is "da best"

Because it is clearly Mushihimesama Futari Black Label Original Mode

and I will not be told differently.

Nice troll guy.

[n0rtygames]

It wasn't a troll! I'm totally serious. Futari BL Orig is for some perverse reason one of my favourite Cave games/modes

You can have your interdimensional battleships and ninjas. I've got my flying bugs!

[Skykid]

It wasn't a troll! I'm totally serious. Futari BL Orig is for some perverse reason one of my favourite Cave games/modes

Wild stab, is that because it's super duper easy?

[Bananamatic]

It wasn't a troll! I'm totally serious. Futari BL Orig is for some perverse reason one of my favourite Cave games/modes

Wild stab, is that because it's super duper easy?

reminds me of people saying type D is their favourite in sdoj

[n0rtygames]

Wild stab, is that because it's super duper easy?

Actually... yes! That is precisely why I like it. It's an easy mode that you just clear once after using a couple of well placed bombs and never play again. Right?

But..... If you're playing it to try and improve your score, it's not exactly "super duper easy" - you're not allowed to bomb or die . I like point blanking, I like the constant rank increase if you're scoring well, I like shot the shot switching and I like the frustration of attempting to NMNB the game while crashing in to an enemy and wrecking my run having to start over.

[PAPER/ARTILLERY]

What mode are you playing?

Any of them really, I've almost cleared arcade but I struggle with all of them.

[Jonst]

What mode are you playing?

Any of them really, I've almost cleared arcade but I struggle with all of them.

I find arcade to be the toughest of the modes. Try climax/zetsu mode, it's a more balanced version of arcade with the slightly slower boss bullet patterns and extra shin stage. Arcade mode is my least favourite, still love it though!

[Jonst]

The weak excuses about why people don't like it always irritate me! (It's my problem).

It's more annoying when people act like you're some kind of drooling retard just because the game hasn't really "clicked" for you yet though. I just don't really dig AK... sorry. Not my game. Not gonna bash it, some people have fun with it..

One day we'll go back to playing shmups for clears and scores instead of arguing over which shmup is "da best"

Because it is clearly Mushihimesama Futari Black Label Original Mode

and I will not be told differently.

It's fine for people to not gel with it. The most common reason I've seen is... "It's a hori". That's a crap reason to say the whole game is crap based on that. It's like saying sdoj is crap because all the stages are blue!

[n0rtygames]

It's fine for people to not gel with it. The most common reason I've seen is... "It's a hori". That's a crap reason to say the whole game is crap based on that. It's like saying sdoj is crap because all the stages are blue!

I'm not sure.. I think the hori argument has some more validity. For me the dislike of AK is just down to the fact I haven't really sat down with the game and worked out how to play it properly I think and it doesn't feel so appealing when I do try.

But re: hori - I guess the games just feel different. Though ultimately when dealing with 4:3 res it's exactly the same play area just rotated 90 degrees.. It's probably the case that the same muscle memory doesn't apply perhaps? In a hori you're often manouvreing up and down vs left and right... I dunno, I don't play them as much.. but it's not quite as trivial as disliking the blue stages of sdoj since your entire viewport and control scheme are rotated to something that feels totally different..

I mean, you could really just not like horizontal shooters! I know I prefer verts overall

[Cagar]

Cmon Jonst, it's a Hori.
I think that verts feel more natural to everyone because the bullets are sort of like 'raining' down.
Think of a situation in real life where a slow, huge pink bullet is coming towards you; no matter the direction, from your perspective the bullet will always look like it's 'falling' towards you from up to down.
Even though no-one probably dodges pink bullets in real life as a hobby, I'm fairly certain that real life physics apply to video-games in this very convoluted way, which would explain why some things in games feel automatically more natural and why Call of Duty is the best selling game franchise.

[jepjepjep]

stage 1 boss was harder in WL
idk what else was changed but WL definitely feels harder

If you're a Type-B player, the hitbox was made smaller and centered on the ship in black label (to match the type-a hitbox). It's a big improvement imo.

[Jonst]

Ok. I get it you guys prefer vert! That's cool, I enjoy both... And I will always come out in defence of ak!!

... Don't write it off though, make time for it one day... Are you/have you given it a fair chance?

[To Far Away Times]

The weak excuses about why people don't like it always irritate me! (It's my problem).

It's more annoying when people act like you're some kind of drooling retard just because the game hasn't really "clicked" for you yet though. I just don't really dig AK... sorry. Not my game. Not gonna bash it, some people have fun with it..

One day we'll go back to playing shmups for clears and scores instead of arguing over which shmup is "da best"

Because it is clearly Mushihimesama Futari Black Label Original Mode

and I will not be told differently.

I have a hard time deciding if Black Label Original or Vanilla Original is my favorite. But either way, one of those two is my favorite CAVE game.

[Cagar]

Ok. I get it you guys prefer vert! That's cool, I enjoy both... And I will always come out in defence of ak!!

... Don't write it off though, make time for it one day... Are you/have you given it a fair chance?

I played it for a week straight when I got it, I literally had a bed which I played from next to a monitor. Cleared all modes of it easily, and did some mediocre scoring.

(the bed next to a monitor was not because of akai katana, but it helped)

EDIT: Now you made me want to play it again though, so good job I think

[Jonst]

I'm happy now cagar. Play it again and discover the joy of scoring well in it! (Whatever mode)

[Softdrink 117]

Before, if a player picked up a bee icon worth 30% Hyper while at 99% full Hyper Gauge, they would gain 129% Hyper, enough to generate an item. However, the extra 29% did not carry over to the new bar, and was just thrown away. In Black Label, that extra 29% is now properly carried over into the next Hyper bar.

But this is not true. Bees don't carry over in either version. Why would it be a bug anyway? I don't really thing HG101 can be called a reliable source. The same text also claims the loop is harder in BL which is obviously nonsense.

I could be mistaken, but I have heard here and elsewhere that WL's hyper drop system is bugged. I seem to recall an interview with IKD where he talks about it as one of the balance changes made to BL. I'm not sure about this hyper carryover thing -- I know for a fact that they do not carry in WL, but I haven't checked in BL to be completely honest. I do know, however, that the hyper drop rate in BL is much higher than that of WL in most sections of the game, and that this discrepancy has been attributed to code errors in the WL release.

As far as the loop difficulty being higher:

My understanding of BL rank vs WL rank is that WL starts higher and maxes lower, where BL starts much lower and maxes slightly higher. Since BL drops many more hypers than WL when played for score, in theory the loop and endgame will be more difficult. I'm personally not at a skill level where I can vouch for that. Also, BL does not take away your lives during the loop, which from what I understand is a major point of contention with WL's loop, which may artificially inflate the difficulty by comparison.

[Elixir]

WL has late hyper item drop bug and hyper overflow bug (excess hyper wasted and not added to next gauge), bosses have denser and faster patterns, 1 of the stages impossible to full chain (also bug), rank is more intense..

Rank is actually more intense in BL, because you're given more hypers more often which results in higher rank/score. Also, not being able to fully chain a stage in a *pachi game isn't even a bug.

Everything I quoted is objectively wrong, stay strong shmups forum

[Mortificator]

Think of a situation in real life where a slow, huge pink bullet is coming towards you; no matter the direction, from your perspective the bullet will always look like it's 'falling' towards you from up to down.

From your perspective it would look like a circle whose circumference is increasing.

[leadwing85]

Also, not being able to fully chain a stage in a *pachi game isn't even a bug.

agreed, not a bug, only bug concerns the hyper, the rest is just differences between wl and bl. it was something that cave decided to change after feedback from top Japanese players, and im referring to a bee placement on stage 3 that allows a full chain of the stage on BL, whereas on WL it is impossible.

[Erppo]

Also, not being able to fully chain a stage in a *pachi game isn't even a bug.

agreed, not a bug, only bug concerns the hyper, the rest is just differences between wl and bl. it was something that cave decided to change after feedback from top Japanese players, and im referring to a bee placement on stage 3 that allows a full chain of the stage on BL, whereas on WL it is impossible.

This is getting more and more confusing. The bee placements are identical in both versions.

E: I know it's still possible to chain 2-3 in WL by delaying the big ship just before the midboss instead of the BL method that relies on the mines the midboss drops. I have no idea if this is possible in 1-3 though.

[Some-Mist]

I love akai katana. When I first got it I spent a few weeks 1ccing arcade mode which was a blast. Hadn't played it since up until last month when I played slash mode for the first time which was pure bliss.

This is also coming from someone who's favorite cave game is progear tho

[Jonst]

^ about time, some ak love!! Well, that makes sense from your point of view. I read somewhere that the same designer worked on both games, ak is seen as a sort of sequel to progear.

[Elixir]

im referring to a bee placement on stage 3 that allows a full chain of the stage on BL, whereas on WL it is impossible.

Here is how to chain DOJ WL 1-3 into midboss, it has nothing to do with the bees. You change your story with every new post, it's quite monotonous.

WL is harder than BL, obviously, but not for the reasons you've mentioned.