Loops with the best extra content

[Ebbo]

So this tangent over the other thread got me thinking: what shmups do have the best loops content wise?
By content I mean things like ramping up difficulty (bullet speed/density etc.) or introducing completely new stuff, such as extra bosses or maybe even new gameplay mechanics.

My example isn't from a shmup but Punch-Out!! for Wii actually has pretty extensive "second loop" where you battle all the fighters again, each with altered moveset and new tricks up their sleeves. Is there a shooter equivalent close to that one?

[Cagar]

Did you make this thread to bait me to post that your own game project, FINAL BOSS, has the best loop extra content that I've seen?

[n0rtygames]

Did you make that post so I could ask if it's normal to imagine people saying the name of that game in the voice of a very excited Japanese gameshow announcer? Because capitalising FINAL BOSS in the middle of a sentence just kinda does that.

[iconoclast]

The only good loops are the ones that increase the difficulty by reworking every single bullet pattern as opposed to having every enemy throw a sloppy mess of suicide bullets at you. Dodonpachi and Daioujou are perfect examples of a loop done right.

[Erppo]

The only good loops are the ones that increase the difficulty by reworking every single bullet pattern as opposed to having every enemy throw a sloppy mess of suicide bullets at you. Dodonpachi and Daioujou are perfect examples of a loop done right.

Yeah, DDPs are pretty much the best example of loops. The loop feels like fresh new content because it plays so differently. Also the adjustions in game rules make it so that the first loop doesn't get trivially easy as soon as you get competent in the second so the whole game remains interesting.

[MathU]

Hah, I've actually been meaning to make a thread like this for a while. "What games actually do looping right?"

One of the problems with looping is when you have to play pretty much the same thing over again. Then it becomes a matter of slogging through content you've already mastered just to get to the content that's actually dangerous and exciting for you. I almost always think turning the higher loops into simply a higher difficulty mode selector is a better idea. What I absolutely can't stand is in games like Cho Ren Sha 68K or a lot of CAVE games where they force you to play through the same damn thing twice to finally reach the penultimate challenge at the end of the game. It's one thing to reward player skill with an uber final challenge, but focusing on people who can spend the longest without going to the bathroom or have the most patience for banal repetitiveness just feels like an unnecessary method of dividing good players from "great" players. It's really a damn shame because I love fighting Cho Ren Sha 68K's final boss but it really just starts feeling like work when you get to that second loop.

However, one thing that does make loops more tolerable is when the loops are actually a different game instead of the same thing with some lazy suicide bullet mechanics or slightly tweaked formations and what not. Two games which I think do this the best are Kingdom Grandprix and Gradius Rebirth. In Kingdom Grandprix you have the option of choosing between two or three levels for each race in the first loop, and then on the second playthrough of the game you go through all the levels you didn't play through the first time (minus the first level). In Gradius Rebirth all the levels except the final one are radically different between its three unique loops.

[DocHauser]

I haven't seen the loop of Double Wings for myself, but according to a blogpost I read...

The second loop contains a strange combination of the same levels plus some new sections if you do not die. The moment you die, the rest of the level returns to the same as the first loop

[pegboy]

The original Legend of Zelda. The "second loop" is basically an entirely reworked and much harder game.

[Jaimers]

What I absolutely can't stand is in games like Cho Ren Sha 68K or a lot of CAVE games where they force you to play through the same damn thing twice

I understand Cho Ren Sha but I can't think of many Cave games where the second loop is 'the same dang thing'. Cave loops usually have significant differences in enemy patterns and how you deal with them, how you optimally route the stages and they also often have different mechanics. But yeah in CRS the difference is so minimal that it's basically the same thing over again.

I like the Ura loop in Ketsui since the second loop is basically a completely different game from the first loop.

[SuperDeadite]

Fire Barrel gets a lot more interesting on the 2nd loop.

[Strikers1945guy]

Fire Barrel gets a lot more interesting on the 2nd loop.

What do Irem second loops usually look like anyways? Faster enemies / bullets? Or more bullets? Im guessing no suicide bullets obviously. FB is generally pretty easy in the first loop right?

[MathU]

IREM 2nd loops range from mildly more interesting (R-Type III) to ludicrous difficulty spike (Image Fight). Usually what gets changed is enemy aggression and health, more attacks, and sometimes more enemies show up. I like that they never do suicide bullet junk at least. They're generally not different enough that the games wouldn't be better off with a simple difficulty selector. R-Type III being a great example; that game really needs an option to start on the second loop.

[SuperDeadite]

IREM 2nd loops range from mildly more interesting (R-Type III) to ludicrous difficulty spike (Image Fight). Usually what gets changed is enemy aggression and health, more attacks, and sometimes more enemies show up. I like that they never do suicide bullet junk at least. They're generally not different enough that the games wouldn't be better off with a simple difficulty selector. R-Type III being a great example; that game really needs an option to start on the second loop.

Fire Barrel works a bit differently. Enemies from later stages show up in earlier stages, but it's done in a way that stylistically looks good and doesn't feel forced. Very much feels like a ''Special Version'' of the original game. Kind of like Metal Slug 2 vs X.

[Strikers1945guy]

IREM 2nd loops range from mildly more interesting (R-Type III) to ludicrous difficulty spike (Image Fight). Usually what gets changed is enemy aggression and health, more attacks, and sometimes more enemies show up. I like that they never do suicide bullet junk at least. They're generally not different enough that the games wouldn't be better off with a simple difficulty selector. R-Type III being a great example; that game really needs an option to start on the second loop.

Fire Barrel works a bit differently. Enemies from later stages show up in earlier stages, but it's done in a way that stylistically looks good and doesn't feel forced. Very much feels like a ''Special Version'' of the original game. Kind of like Metal Slug 2 vs X.

And you've now just increased the price on the PCB tenfold with this little bit of interesting info

[SuperDeadite]

IREM 2nd loops range from mildly more interesting (R-Type III) to ludicrous difficulty spike (Image Fight). Usually what gets changed is enemy aggression and health, more attacks, and sometimes more enemies show up. I like that they never do suicide bullet junk at least. They're generally not different enough that the games wouldn't be better off with a simple difficulty selector. R-Type III being a great example; that game really needs an option to start on the second loop.

Fire Barrel works a bit differently. Enemies from later stages show up in earlier stages, but it's done in a way that stylistically looks good and doesn't feel forced. Very much feels like a ''Special Version'' of the original game. Kind of like Metal Slug 2 vs X.

And you've now just increased the price on the PCB tenfold with this little bit of interesting info

You're more right then you *may* know. Back when I bought my Fire Barrel, 3 others had been sitting on Yahoo for months. Then I made a little video of it (this was back when the game was totally broken in mame still), and all 3 boards sold within a week.... >_<

[Kollision]

I thought the mirrored stages of Under Defeat were a really nice touch.

[Ebbo]

In Gradius Rebirth all the levels except the final one are radically different between its three unique loops.

While I really liked this, I was slightly disappointed when I realized the three loops are also accessible through difficulty selection (hard = second loop, very hard = third loop). I know it sounds rather nitpicky but I still appreciate the effort and on the other hand it allows starting from the more harder loops without playing through the game multiple times.

About games with infinite loops: what games go on the longest without the difficulty maxing out? If I remember correctly, Gradius V maxes after 13 or so loops. Are there games that go even further?

[Plasmo]

Final Boss.

[Some-Mist]

only 2nd loop I've been able to play (excluding batsugun ofc) is Progear... and it's balls to the wall insane. suicide bullets and a time trial-esque 2nd loop where you start from the beginning if you lose one life........

[pegboy]

In Gradius Rebirth all the levels except the final one are radically different between its three unique loops.

While I really liked this, I was slightly disappointed when I realized the three loops are also accessible through difficulty selection (hard = second loop, very hard = third loop). I know it sounds rather nitpicky but I still appreciate the effort and on the other hand it allows starting from the more harder loops without playing through the game multiple times.

About games with infinite loops: what games go on the longest without the difficulty maxing out? If I remember correctly, Gradius V maxes after 13 or so loops. Are there games that go even further?

Gradius V maxes out on loop 10, and each loop takes around 65-70 minutes to complete.

I've heard Gradius rebirth never maxes out, as the number of suicide bullets continues to go up by +1 for each loop, and I'm not sure there is a cap or not.

[Chaos Phoenixma]

If it maxes out at 10, what's the point of those loop 256 vids on Youtube for V? Unless the point is, hey I can play loop 256 for some reason.

[Capintec]

I thought the mirrored stages of Under Defeat were a really nice touch.

+1

[pegboy]

If it maxes out at 10, what's the point of those loop 256 vids on Youtube for V? Unless the point is, hey I can play loop 256 for some reason.

The difficulty maxes out at loop 10, however the game goes on forever (like all Gradius games). I think the loop counter stops at 255 or 256, but the game itself still goes on forever.

[TJB]

I actually really enjoy Progear's 2nd loop, you can't really afford to die especially when you're in the home stretch of a stage, it makes for some extremely tense moments.

(For the uninformed, dying in Progear's 2nd loop takes you back to the beginning of the stage if you're not up to the boss of that stage)

There's also the other changes, additional enemies or shuffling of patterns, but that's kind of a given seeing as it's a CAVE game. Other than that I'm not too experienced in games that loop.

[Squire Grooktook]

Old topic, but I've been working towards a 2-all of Kingdom Grandprix lately, and I have to concur that that games extra loop content is very special.

Part of it is that, as mentioned, the game forces you to choose from the stages you didn't play through on the previous loop. But it also works so well because you essentially need to speedrun the first loop to unlock the second, which adds quite a bit of thrill and urgency to the first, and ends up making the second feel more like the elite second half of an epic adventure then simply recycled content.

Also some nice long term strategy in choosing your routes on the first loop, in preparation of what you'll get on the second.

[Cee]

Gradius iv has a great rearranged well balanced 2nd loop and im not usually a fan of loops but this one does it perfectly imo.

[AntiFritz]

Old topic, but I've been working towards a 2-all of Kingdom Grandprix lately, and I have to concur that that games extra loop content is very special.

Part of it is that, as mentioned, the game forces you to choose from the stages you didn't play through on the previous loop. But it also works so well because you essentially need to speedrun the first loop to unlock the second, which adds quite a bit of thrill and urgency to the first, and ends up making the second feel more like the elite second half of an epic adventure then simply recycled content.

Also some nice long term strategy in choosing your routes on the first loop, in preparation of what you'll get on the second.

By speedrun do you mean actually try to race and not just come last because you were playing it like a shmup?

[Special World]

This is my first time hearing about Final Boss. Just played it for the first time. I am absolutely floored. You guys are doing such a fucking good job, holy shit.

ED: I actually feel like I can't ever really love a loop. Unless you have a very very short game that infinitely loops as part of its design, I think a loop is better done as an unlockable alternate difficulty or mode, or whatever. Having back to back loops really undercuts the quick-play appeal that makes shooters so enjoyable, imo. Then again I'm a scrub who can't achieve any loop and dislikes them only in theory.

[copy-paster]

The original Legend of Zelda. The "second loop" is basically an entirely reworked and much harder game.

Recca also doing that, it requires reset the game after beating normal mode.

[Squire Grooktook]

Yes, Final Boss is the best.

By speedrun do you mean actually try to race and not just come last because you were playing it like a shmup?

Actually try to race. You need to take first place to access the loop.