SaGa: misunderstood, or just crap?

[sethsez]

This series is quite successful in Japan. In America it bombs hard every time and gets scathing reviews. Defenders of the series think it's the best damn thing since sliced bread, and haters think Kawazu killed their dog and should have been fired after Final Fantasy II.

Why the disparity?

I do not consider myself, in any way, a SaGa fan. The Gameboy games were okay for what they were, but overall Kawazu's games have always struck me as great ideas marred by terrible execution. The promise they showed was always overshadowed by a wall of stats that were never explained, and events that seemed damn near random. Unlimited Saga was not "hardcore" in my opinion, it was just stupid.

Then I played the new Romancing SaGa. With this game, everything suddenly clicks into place for me. Randomness gives way to a logically evolving world. A big wall of stats gives way to a damn clever character progression system. Everything that makes SaGa SaGa is still here in full force, but it's all finally explained, in depth, in the game and manual. The game finally makes sense, and as a result I've been having a blast with it.

However, it still requires a lot from the player. It doesn't give you a story, you have to go out and get it. It doesn't give you goals, you have to find them or make them yourself. This was annoying in previous entries due to their general clutter, screwy pacing and obscure systems, but here I find it refreshing.

So. SaGa. Discuss the series, the newest entry, how Unlimited Saga made you wake up in a ditch at 2AM with a fresh case of genital warts, whatever.

[Tomtom]

I have had some good times with SaGa Frontier. Though I didn't have the patience to play through more than one scenario (Blue), I had a good time with that one. I like the ability learning system, and I think it makes more sense than your typical RPG. Given your review, I think I'll have to pick up Minstrel Song one of thse days.

Also, I have Unlimited SaGa, and while it takes a lot from the earlier games, it loses a lot of the gameplay if you ask me. It takes way more patience than I've got to get anywhere in that game. The music is outstanding, however.

[sethsez]

Minstrel Song is basically SaGa Frontier, tweaked and refined to make more sense. I hated Frontier but really enjoy this, and I can't see any Frontier fan who wouldn't love it.

[UnscathedFlyingObject]

I know someone who likes Frontier a lot, but he also likes a lot of shizz too, so I dismissed the game as shizz. I'm afraid he'll infect half a town with his anal warts if he farts around too much.

[sethsez]

Frontier was, indeed, shit. This is far better because it's actually balanced and doesn't assume the player knows everything.

You still need to buy DQ8, btw.

[Ganelon]

I was a huge fan of Frontier due to its amazing scope. Atmosphere was amazing (the urban cities, ghettos, industrial areas, and even castles all felt cohesively connected), there was a good quantity of characters (screw the crave for character over-development nowadays), music was fantastic (any game where there's the same 1 battle tune for 7 different playthroughs that doesn't get old earns my respect), and freedom/difficulty/length totally changed depending on who you picked and what you wanted to do.

Now, if I was a casual JRPG fan, I'd be put off by "undeveloped" characters, "poor" graphics, and no explanation of where to go. I'd be frustrated that I was stuck, couldn't learn new skills, and would hate the game (although this point is valid in Lute's unfinished, no explanation scenario).

So yeah, big thumbs up for me and an understanding that mainstream RPGers still prefer to be spoonfed through their games.

[sethsez]

I was a huge fan of Frontier due to its amazing scope. Atmosphere was amazing (the urban cities, ghettos, industrial areas, and even castles all felt cohesively connected), there was a good quantity of characters (screw the crave for character over-development nowadays), music was fantastic (any game where there's the same 1 battle tune for 7 different playthroughs that doesn't get old earns my respect), and freedom/difficulty/length totally changed depending on who you picked and what you wanted to do.

Now, if I was a casual JRPG fan, I'd be put off by "undeveloped" characters, "poor" graphics, and no explanation of where to go. I'd be frustrated that I was stuck, couldn't learn new skills, and would hate the game (although this point is valid in Lute's unfinished, no explanation scenario).

So yeah, big thumbs up for me and an understanding that mainstream RPGers still prefer to be spoonfed through their games.

Eh, my problem with Frontier had nothing to do with the open-endedness. After all, you find people who hate SaGa but love Fallout or Morrowind. The issue is how it handled the open-endedness... there were only a few things to do here and there, rather than a world full of stuff to do, so most of the "open" stuff was just empty space. Additionally, the game did an absolutely piss-poor job of explaining its mechanics (no, I don't consider explaining the rules of the game to be spoonfeeding, I consider it to be fair play). The ambition was always there, but for me the execution had been lacking.

Romancing SaGa fixes both of these. The world now has enough to do to justify its existence (you still have to search for quests, but at least there are quests to be found), and the mechanics are explained in-depth, both in the manual and the game itself.

[TVG]

i had great fun with saga frontier 2, great music, storyline, graphics, chars, etc...pretty hard too. in fact i played trough it twice and stopped at the last dungeon each time.
damn, makes me want to replay it, too bad i lost it

[Moogs]

I've heard several times now that Romancing SaGa is the most accessible game in the series, but I distinctly remember SaGa Frontier II being the most playable. Granted, I played the game some five years ago, but I can't recall ever coming across something in the gameplay that made me scratch my head and want to give up.

I gotta give Kawazu credit for making his games aesthetically pleasing, though. They're almost always gorgeous, and the music is always great.

[thesuperkillerxxx]

I didn't get frontier, but in all honesty, i only had a few hours in it. The topic will probably make me pick it up again, as it has been about 8 years...

Now to hijack the thread:
Is this what your disks of SaGa Frontier look like? This was purchased new and sealed at a babbages in North Carolina



Craziest shit I ever saw. played just fine though, at least every bit I ever played.

[Zach Keene]

Yeah, that's what my SF disc looks like. I'm not sure what you're finding unusual...

[Moogs]

The fact that the bottom of the disc is blue, not black.

[Zach Keene]

I couldn't tell if that was from the lighting or not. Mine is definately black.

[mrMagenta]

huh, i thought you meant the cheezy 80s spacerock band.. i think they might be misuderstood.

[UnscathedFlyingObject]

Why are the PSX disks black? I always wonder.

[sethsez]

So that it's harder to make a legitimate looking bootleg.

Also, I'm loving this game now. All SaGa games should have been like this, and I can't wait to see what happens with the series next.

[sjewkestheloon]

i've picked up the saga games for the ps1 many times but never bought em. i am however very interested in rpgs that stray a little from the norm so i'll probably pick them up when i'm done with grandia (which i just strted last night).

[sethsez]

Heh, they stray a lot from the norm, at least if your frame of reference is Japanese RPGs.

[MovingTarget]

Thats wierd, I just started playing unlimited saga again last night. I liked it before and I like it now.

I think it is a very misunderstood game, but the reasons are too numerous to explain. To get the most out of this game you need a very open mind, and patience in abundance. Its incredibly rewarding.

I think the battle reel is ingenious

[Obiwanshinobi]

So I'm a number of hours into Romancing SaGa: Minstrel Song. Been putting it aside for a while now, disheartened by the skanky presentation (it's not all bad; for example I'm glad to see sharp, unfiltered textures - a rarity on PS2 - here and there).
I'd say it's a Morrowind that doesn't suck. Wish I could come up with a better compliment (for my money Morrowind blew), but there it goes. I also wish it had SOME story as with my character of choice - Barbara - there's none so far. I mean, really, good stories certainly didn't spoil Fallout 1&2 and Arcanum, and while Gothic hardly had a story to write home about, at least I cared about its characters. Here, when I lost one of my party members in a dungeon, it seemingly took me a couple of battles more to realise he was missing. If that sounds like a description of a fool friendly game to you, that is correct. It's actually not that easy to suck at it, even if you can't be bothered following its teachings. It's a game that gives you candy all the same, whether you're trying to be smart or just spamming the hell out of a powerful combination (once you have enough funky attacks to find one, and those are like rare drops you find/learn by grinding).
At this point I'd say it excels in three things:
1) Enemies levelling up with you - the idea wasn't new, but the execution here is spot-on. It just feels right to me.
2) Illusion of depth - how deep is depth you can to a large extent ignore and keep progressing? This is wearing thin already. Quicksave in dungeons is fine and all, but it does remove the incentive to learn the system's intricacies. It's like "whoa, my dudes pulled off that awesome attack again, so I must be doing something right, yeehhaw", and when a party member dies, I can just restart and load quicksave. Weapon fatigue isn't very punishing either. Tha game got easier once I stopped being preservative and started giving it all I've got. Again, how deep is that?
3) Many things to discover. There is some wandering into the unknown to be done here alright. Morrowind caricatured the concept rather than carried it out. Divine Divinity (the first one) did it well and so does Romancing SaGa thus far (whether I'll ever finish either is another thing).

[BryanM]

The GB games were the best the platform had to offer in the genre. You had Last Bible, and you had SaGa, and then a few million years until pokérmom. There is an elegance in them - slap together a team, go kill stuff, find riches and treasure.

Later offshoots where you're having a story force fed down your throat, icky.

[Obiwanshinobi]

I don't dislike SaGa's primordial charms (not having to endure cutscene rituals is a refreshing change). The thing is, I started Fallout 2 twice and every time lost focus on my way through its expansive wolrd full of Unfinished Business™. Same thing is not unlikely to happen here, but I'm enjoying it so far.

[Jockel]

Romancing SaGa 2 was afaik considered the shining high point of the series, too bad it doesn't have a fan translation (at least none that i know of).

[BryanM]

Gideon has it on his stack. So one year someone will take a week to finish it and it'll slam against your head unexpectedly.

[Limbrooke]

Gideon has it on his stack. So one year someone will take a week to finish it and it'll slam against your head unexpectedly.

Interesting, let's hope it gets slammed into someones head sooner rather than later. I've heard good things about it too and it looks alright from what I've seen.

[Sumez]

This thread made me buy Minstrel Song

[Matsunaga]

I hated Saga Frontier. Never attempted another one after that debacle.