Explain Downscaling to me like Im a 5 Year Old American Kid

[chronicdog]

Its really sad, I think Im getting older or maybe just... dumberer. Ive read this page: http://scanlines.hazard-city.de/ but remain pretty clueless.

It seems to have all the information I need, but Im too dumb and too American to understand it. No, this isnt a troll post... sadly, Im serious.

Ive never seen an "RGB" connector in my life and never even heard of it outside this forum. I know what VGA is, as well as composite, svideo, and component.

Since buying an old Sony CRT, I have also learned that not all component inputs accept 480p, this was news to me when I tried plugging in my Xbox 360 via component.

WHAT I WANT: a simple (lets just say IDIOT PROOF) way to send the 480i/480p output of my Xbox 360 to my Sony CRT as a 240p signal. This is for retro arcade games and shmup imports.

I have the 360 VGA cable, if that helps, because from looking at the pics of all the boxes on the confusingly unhelpful page written by the very smart man, VGA and BNC and RGB are all that exist.

CLIFF NOTES: My TV does not accept VGA, BNC, or RGB type connections. It has component, composite, and Svideo - that last one is occupied by my Retron3, which looks great by the way. ^_^

[Fudoh]

Unless you can find one of those incredibly rare Super Emotia GX units, which would take your 480p VGA signal and directly output 240p component for your TV, going 31khz VGA to 15khz component is quite a stretch and usually not worth the effort. The GX is the only simply, idiot proof and good way to directly get 240p component from a 480p VGA signal. Without it, you would need a 480p VGA to 240p RGB scan converter along with a RGB to component transcoder.

Of course you know that 480i component from your 360 will work as it is - without any conversion.

We recently found that the Extron RGB interfaces can also be used to trick your TV into handling a 480i component signal as 240p component, but this only works well with a handful of games. It's not a true 240p conversion. On the other hand the method is cheap. $30 maybe.

[chronicdog]

Fudoh, thanks so much for replying. You seem like a pretty smart guy - so when I tell you Im dumb, and you tell me to buy something, Im going to listen to you.

So I copy/pasted "Super Emotia GX" into ebay and got this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/261666585565

So I did the only logically idiotic thing and bought it immediately, even though it doesnt say "GX." I mean, the listing says "SCANLINES" and it has S Video output, how wrong could I go? It might be rare! (Dont use this word around collectors, it causes irrational behavior).

CLIFFNOTES: Fudoh is the messiah. I bought some box for $130 and it might do something. PS: Not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

[Fudoh]

The Super Emotia (non-GX) does not have a component output, just composite, s-video and RGB.

If you're fine with s-video, you're good. If you wanted component, you would need an additional RGB to component transcoder.

In the long run consider getting an RGB interface as well. You can read on my website (you linked to it above) about tweaking the Emotia's output by using a RGB interface up front to shift the image by one line. It makes a visible difference and it's not this expensive. You'll be able to see the effect with 360 games that support vertical shifting from the game options already. An interface would provide the same effect for all sources.

[chronicdog]

"RGB to component transcoder" hmmm, I'm OK with Svideo but Id like to see what you suggest. I searched around on Amazon and ebay but they seem to be all SCART connectors, not BNC.

By the way Fudoh, when you are on your deathbed, let the thought that you made the world a better, happier, more fun place, help guide you towards the light. ^_^

[HydrogLox]

...
Since buying an old Sony CRT, I have also learned that not all component inputs accept 480p, this was news to me when I tried plugging in my Xbox 360 via component.

WHAT I WANT: a simple (lets just say IDIOT PROOF) way to send the 480i/480p output of my Xbox 360 to my Sony CRT as a 240p signal.
...
CLIFF NOTES: My TV does not accept VGA, BNC, or RGB type connections. It has component, composite, and Svideo

I feel compelled to ask a "silly" question - what evidence, if any, do you have that your "old Sony CRT" even supports a 240p signal via component? For example my Sony KV-27FS100 Trinitron Wega fits the description of your TV - but according it's manual:

• Y, Pb, Pr Inputs — A component video input connection for a superior picture quality (480i only). (page 9 of 64)

But as already remarked by Fudoh even that component input (480i) can be utilized by the Xbox 360 and Xbox 360S (and will yield the best ("idiot proof") picture quality on that TV set - note: you cannot use component with the current retail model, the Xbox 360E).

Connect Xbox 360(S): Using Xbox 360 Component HD AV Cable

Note Set the switch to HDTV only if your TV or monitor supports a screen resolution of 480p or higher.

If your component cable is missing that switch then scrounge around in some GameStops (or ebay) for a used one - they were packed in with the original Elites, many of which have succumbed to RROD by now. With that cable you should be able to get the best picture out of the Xbox 360(S) with an 480i set.
However you have to understand that some games were not designed to run on a 4:3 aspect ratio screen - so in addition to getting "penalized" with the lower resolution, occasionally you will have to put up with letterboxing (in some rare circumstances possibly even windowboxing) which tends to degrade the image even further.

[gray117]

• Y, Pb, Pr Inputs — A component video input connection for a superior picture quality (480i only). (page 9 of 64)

^ what we call 240p isn't really recognised as a proper progressive signal, hence manufacturers don't ever tend to refer to it at all - many on screen displays will still name the signal type as 480i or similar...

Have you tried a 15khz 240p signal via your component on your tv? You may be pleasantly surprised to find it actually works - no guarantees, but I suspect it will

What I suspect the manual is actually specifying is that 480p (and above) will not work. i.e. 31khz signals.

[CkRtech]

and too American to understand it.

...seriously?

[Fudoh]

What I suspect the manual is actually specifying is that 480p (and above) will not work. i.e. 31khz signals.

most definitely. I haven't heard of single 15khz tube that wouldn't accept 240p.

[bobrocks95]

You probably would have been just fine with component 480i out of your Xbox (unless you're really desperate for scanlines). You need an official cable that has a switch to go between SD and HD though, or the xbox will default to 480p.

[muckyfingers]

S-Video out of those Emotia's are crap, sadly. You will need this cable

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Male-RGB-Euro-S ... 2ed9a6fe96

and this RGB to component transcoder

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-SCART-RGB-t ... 337dfa167b


Connect those to the Super Emotia output and enjoy scanlines on your SDTV CRT.

[Fudoh]

S-Video out of those Emotia's are crap, sadly

really ? Never tried.

[muckyfingers]

S-Video out of those Emotia's are crap, sadly

really ? Never tried.

Yes, very poor colors and alot of color banding, didn't look much better than the composite out. I installed a CXA2075 (RGB to S-Video converter) into mine and it was a HUGE difference.

[Sixfortyfive]

What I suspect the manual is actually specifying is that 480p (and above) will not work. i.e. 31khz signals.

most definitely. I haven't heard of single 15khz tube that wouldn't accept 240p.

It's very rare, but they apparently do exist, as I have experience with exactly 1 such SD CRT that doesn't know how to handle 240p signals. It would flicker on and off as if it was having sync issues. It was a really cheap, really small set that wasn't from a notable manufacturer, though.

[austin532]

and too American to understand it.

...seriously?

Hey, I know what it feels like and can relate to it.

[CkRtech]

Hey, I know what it feels like and can relate to it.

Well....OK.

[BazookaBen]

S-Video out of those Emotia's are crap, sadly. You will need this cable

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Male-RGB-Euro-S ... 2ed9a6fe96

and this RGB to component transcoder

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-SCART-RGB-t ... 337dfa167b

I disagree. I think he should use the Xbox VGA cable>Super Emotia, followed by a BNC to VGA cable

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VGA-Adapter-To- ... 418ad9d476

and a vga to component converter, like:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Audio-Authority ... 7675.l2557

Since he's an American with American hardware, no need to deal with the scart stuff.

[muckyfingers]

S-Video out of those Emotia's are crap, sadly. You will need this cable

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Male-RGB-Euro-S ... 2ed9a6fe96

and this RGB to component transcoder

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-SCART-RGB-t ... 337dfa167b

I disagree. I think he should use the Xbox VGA cable>Super Emotia, followed by a BNC to VGA cable

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VGA-Adapter-To- ... 418ad9d476

and a vga to component converter, like:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Audio-Authority ... 7675.l2557

Since he's an American with American hardware, no need to deal with the scart stuff.

I have experience with the items I linked and was satisfied with the quality, so I recommended them.

[chronicdog]

OK guys, I really appreciate all the help here. Im sad to hear about the SVideo output being crap. But, I just spent $130 to get a LOW RES signal from my Xbox 360. Whats another $50?

So BNC to VGA cable, then VGA to component converter box. Can you guys recommend me a VGA to component box? Is all this transcoding going to introduce noticeable (>20ms) lag?

[chronicdog]

I installed a CXA2075 (RGB to S-Video converter) into mine and it was a HUGE difference.

How much would this mod be and is it a lot of work to complete? For me the difference between component 240p and Svideo 240p seems very small (tested this on my PS2 with PS1 games)

[chronicdog]

But as already remarked by Fudoh even that component input (480i) can be utilized by the Xbox 360 and Xbox 360S (and will yield the best ("idiot proof") picture quality on that TV set - note: you cannot use component with the current retail model, the Xbox 360E).

Connect Xbox 360(S): Using Xbox 360 Component HD AV Cable

Note Set the switch to HDTV only if your TV or monitor supports a screen resolution of 480p or higher.

If your component cable is missing that switch then scrounge around in some GameStops (or ebay) for a used one - they were packed in with the original Elites, many of which have succumbed to RROD by now. With that cable you should be able to get the best picture out of the Xbox 360(S) with an 480i set.
However you have to understand that some games were not designed to run on a 4:3 aspect ratio screen - so in addition to getting "penalized" with the lower resolution, occasionally you will have to put up with letterboxing (in some rare circumstances possibly even windowboxing) which tends to degrade the image even further.

Yes, I understand all that. For me, the jittery 480i signal is OK in game with some games, but it makes the 360 menus pretty hard to look at, and text painful to read. I do have a 42" plasma, and it looks great on there in 720P. But older titles, specifically stuff like Metal Slug games, D&D Chronicles of Mystara, Pac Man, Paperboy, Robotron, and many Cave games, aside from being played windowed, just dont look "right."

[muckyfingers]

I installed a CXA2075 (RGB to S-Video converter) into mine and it was a HUGE difference.

How much would this mod be and is it a lot of work to complete? For me the difference between component 240p and Svideo 240p seems very small (tested this on my PS2 with PS1 games)

If you are doing the work yourself, it's only going to cost you like $10-15 in parts and time. If not doing the work yourself, it's better to buy the 2 items I linked. A transcoder will have no perceivable lag, it's just changing the 240p RGB to 240p YUV (component), not upscaling it or anything like that.


Also test out your unit in S-Video and see if you are happy with it, it could be that just my particular unit was crap on S-Video.

[chronicdog]

Monoprice 107113 Component YpbPr to VGA Converter its $45 on Amazon, is what Im looking at buying. It seems these boxes are pricey and not too popular anymore these days.

[muckyfingers]

Monoprice 107113 Component YpbPr to VGA Converter its $45 on Amazon, is what Im looking at buying. It seems these boxes are pricey and not too popular anymore these days.

No. You need the other way around, VGA to component, not component to VGA.

[chronicdog]

Ha, yeah sometimes when Im paddling out in my canoe on the seas of reality, both oars dont touch the water, tonight I definitely have that feeling. It seems the Monoprice VGA to Component box has some pretty bad reviews, with reports of washed out blacks and other issues. So my options are gamble on some used unknown item on ebay ($20-35), spend even less and get VGA to SVideo which can be had for $10-20, or go for something else thats probably at least $50. Any suggestions, I mean I already dropped $130 so Im "pot committed" as we say in poker, I might as well not screw it up now and get something thats gonna work 100% perfect and be great.

The $15 Svideo mod for my Emotia seems appealing, but Id have to dig out my soldering iron. And lets be frank here, Im no Wizard of Sod. "Ohhhhh!!!" ***AndrewDiceClay voice***

[muckyfingers]

Ha, yeah sometimes when Im paddling out in my canoe on the seas of reality, both oars dont touch the water, tonight I definitely have that feeling. It seems the Monoprice VGA to Component box has some pretty bad reviews, with reports of washed out blacks and other issues. So my options are gamble on some used unknown item on ebay ($20-35), spend even less and get VGA to SVideo which can be had for $10-20, or go for something else thats probably at least $50. Any suggestions, I mean I already dropped $130 so Im "pot committed" as we say in poker, I might as well not screw it up now and get something thats gonna work 100% perfect and be great.

The $15 Svideo mod for my Emotia seems appealing, but Id have to dig out my soldering iron. And lets be frank here, Im no Wizard of Sod. "Ohhhhh!!!" ***AndrewDiceClay voice***

If you get the items I linked, you'll be set.

[Fudoh]

Monoprice 107113 Component YpbPr to VGA Converter its $45 on Amazon

besides being the wrong direction, that's not a pure transcoder, but a scaler. And it doesn't work with 15khz signals.

[BazookaBen]

I can also vouch for the quality of the Audio Authority 9A60, but those aren't always easy to find for cheap. You kinda have to wait for one to pop up for auction on Ebay.

But if you think about going with one not mentioned by me or muckyfingers, make sure you do your research. Use Google. If you're too dumb to use Google, you have bigger problems than getting 240p from an Xbox.