Capcom Brawlers!

[Shatterhand]

I usually say Capcom kept 2 or 3 at most basic formulas for their 1x1 fighting games and kept reusing them, while SNK actually tried a lot of different stuff with their games on this genre, being very inovative many times.

But as far as Beat'em ups go, IMO Capcom are not just the masters of the genre, but they also tried a lot of different stuff with the games. I do agree too, the games don't feel all the same at all.

[1983parrothead]

I like some of Battle Circuit's soundtrack. Right now, especially this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lSeGCns_9M

[Hagane]

Indeed.

So, I got a clear on Armored Warriors. The funny thing is that I beat it on the first credit I played yesterday, but the replay always desynched at stage four. I tried again on Shmupmame 2.2, but it took me quite a few tries to get another 1CC. Here it is:

https://www.mediafire.com/?a3g7nd8ow6kr8aw

The quality is just adequate, not much of interest besides perfecting stage 6 boss. It's decent for an early clear I guess, though.

I'm working on a FAQ for it, and for the genre in general. I'll probably post something the next time I log on.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

So, I got a clear on Armored Warriors. The funny thing is that I beat it on the first credit I played yesterday, but the replay always desynched at stage four.

That must have been painful.

In your opinion, is it true that Armored Warriors is one of the tougher arcade beat 'em ups?

[Hagane]

Not at all, I beat it in about one month of play (one or two hours a day). It's a punishing game for sure, damage is sky high and there are almost no life recovery items, but once you figure the system out and with some beat em up basics it's not that hard. Basically, I based my strategy round mobility for defense (you can get away very fast due to dash speeds) and speedkilling on offense, using subweapons for support (in my replay I stick to the flame thrower to immobilize enemies and extend combos). Laser Blade has almost no recovery and its specials are excellent, and the Treads speedkill anything easily.

In short, once you know what to do, you will not get hit that much so the unforgiveness that makes most of the difficulty goes away.

[jamesmtn]

Another non-Capcom game to check out would be Denjin Makai II, which is my favorite in the genre. On-topic, my favorite of Capcom's games is probably Battle Circuit, sucks there was never a home port.

[CDexWard]

Another non-Capcom game to check out would be Denjin Makai II, which is my favorite in the genre. On-topic, my favorite of Capcom's games is probably Battle Circuit, sucks there was never a home port.

Denjin Makai series looks really great. How is it difficulty wise?
These games are infuriating to play. In shmups I can always see that it is my fault when I die but bmups still feel really cheap for me. Enemies seem to always have a higher attack range than my character. And today I got literally raped by Rob Halford in Crime Fighters.

[Skykid]

Just watched a guy clear The Punisher in the arcade. Always knew that game was tight, but now I think it's amazing. Capcom put so much variety into it and it's stuffed with clever timing tricks and exploits. I especially like the way the guy used every weapon he could lay his hands on for maximum damage.

Hard game though, right down to the wire on a few occasions but I could tell he'd done it plenty of times before..

After that I had my first go on 64th Street. Hmm. Two hammer weilders in the train seem ridiculously unreasonable for such early bosses. :'(

[CIT]

Denjin Makai series looks really great. How is it difficulty wise?
These games are infuriating to play. In shmups I can always see that it is my fault when I die but bmups still feel really cheap for me. Enemies seem to always have a higher attack range than my character. And today I got literally raped by Rob Halford in Crime Fighters.

Denjin Makai II / Guardians is awesome, one of my favorite belt-scrollers. I suck at the genre, especially the Capcom games (only been able to 1CC Final Fight 2, and that's not even an arcade title), but I was able to get to the final stage of Guardians after not too long, so I'd say it's pretty moderate.

[CDexWard]

Some more questions: Do people actually play these games for score? And how is it overall. If I get good at one of them, can I beat others quickly or is it the same as shmups and I will have to put a lot of time into each game? So far I like at least a dozen of brawlers but they only are fun if you are good at them and I don't have the time to put 30+ hours into each game, I would rather stick to two or three then.

[Skykid]

The odd bit of loot adds to the score and in Knights of the Round the shiny points stuff is more intrinsic to success, but I don't think brawlers are played for score otherwise. If you get a 1cc your score is going to rock no matter what.

[Ruldra]

If I get good at one of them, can I beat others quickly or is it the same as shmups and I will have to put a lot of time into each game?

I'd say you do need to spend time with each brawler and learn the specifics of each game to be successful, rocking at one brawler won't make you automatically good at another. But if you're familiar with the fundamentals of the genre - learning how to hit enemies without being hit back, always have all enemies at one side of the screen, using safe attacks and avoiding unsafe ones, identify patterns in the boss AI and exploit them, etc - you'll make progress much quicker than the average player.

[Squire Grooktook]

If I get good at one of them, can I beat others quickly or is it the same as shmups and I will have to put a lot of time into each game?

I'd say you do need to spend time with each brawler and learn the specifics of each game to be successful, rocking at one brawler won't make you automatically good at another. But if you're familiar with the fundamentals of the genre - learning how to hit enemies without being hit back, always have all enemies at one side of the screen, using safe attacks and avoiding unsafe ones, identify patterns in the boss AI and exploit them, etc - you'll make progress much quicker than the average player.

It really depends on the game, too. Unlike shmups, some brawlers are based around instantaneous enemy attacks for which you simply need to know the enemy ai. You could theoretically sight read through some of the hardest shmups on a blind run, but there are many brawlers where I don't see that happening. Depends on the game though, some completely avert this.

[Ex_Mosquito]

There are a couple of ways to play Final Fight for score.

1: Get max value from the oil drums by collecting Diamonds. This be done with very specific timing. There is an interesting thread explaining this over at the Marp forums http://forums.marpirc.net/viewtopic.php ... 63&start=0

2: Milking enemies on the last boss. There is a trick that allows the last boss to be frozen unable to move or fire those annoying darts. There is a glitch in the game with projectiles/daggers that if there are too many on-screen at once it doesn't allow the enemies to spawn them anymore. You can force this by constantly grabbing a knifemen, forcing him to drop a knife, and repeat. Eventually there will be so many projectiles on the floor that the knifeman can't generate them anymore. (There is a glitch on level 2 of Daimakaimura that uses this same max sprite limit glitch) To freeze the last boss uses this projectile sprite limit glitch. If you notice when the last boss (I've forgotten his name :/) fires his crossbow he is basically firing 10+ daggers in one go - the absolute MAX that can be on-screen. To glitch him out all you need to do is to bring a knife from the previous wave of enemies and throw it against the wall so it rebounds and lands on the floor, then when you get his energy low enough for him to start firing his crossbow, because he requires the memory space of the maximum amount of projectiles to do a single burst of his crossbow the extra dagger on the floor glitches him out and he gets frozen mid-fire until you hit him From then on it's just a matter of rinsing the enemies that spawn on the screen until the time runs out and you lose a life, and then just repeat until you're on 0-lives and 0seconds on the clock and then just finish off the last boss.

[Skykid]

^ His name is Belger and that's one of the most awesome tricks I've ever heard of in Final Fight.

[Ex_Mosquito]

It's pretty neat. I'll do a vid sometime tomorrow of it along with the Daimakaimura glitch. I actually first learnt of it in 09' watching a Final fight ninja playing in HEY! I'm surprised it's not more well known.

[Ex_Mosquito]

Here is a short video of the Final Fight Belgar Freeze glitch. I made a mistake in my previous post about bringing in a single dagger from the previous wave of enemies. I was thinking of a different game, in fact you need 6 daggers on the floor to glitch him out. This is done by grabbing a knifeman and headbutting him to drop the knife *repeat. I also included a few Ghouls n Ghosts glitches.

http://youtu.be/eKTQwDUmFIk

[Skykid]

http://youtu.be/eKTQwDUmFIk

These are great, thanks for sharing.

[Hagane]

If I get good at one of them, can I beat others quickly or is it the same as shmups and I will have to put a lot of time into each game?

I'd say you do need to spend time with each brawler and learn the specifics of each game to be successful, rocking at one brawler won't make you automatically good at another. But if you're familiar with the fundamentals of the genre - learning how to hit enemies without being hit back, always have all enemies at one side of the screen, using safe attacks and avoiding unsafe ones, identify patterns in the boss AI and exploit them, etc - you'll make progress much quicker than the average player.

Learning the genre's basics indeed won't make you instantly great at another game, but just as in every other genre you will have a much easier time with further games you play. Learning the basics is a must to make progress easier.

The beat'em up FAQ I've been preparing is almost ready and hope to post it next week, and Ill be listing all the basic stuff that you can use in every game.

Just watched a guy clear The Punisher in the arcade. Always knew that game was tight, but now I think it's amazing. Capcom put so much variety into it and it's stuffed with clever timing tricks and exploits. I especially like the way the guy used every weapon he could lay his hands on for maximum damage.

Hard game though, right down to the wire on a few occasions but I could tell he'd done it plenty of times before..

The Punisher is a very cool game with lots of stuff to do, but it's not really hard; it's probably the easiest Capcom game in the genre, precisely because of all the tools at your disposal. Your character can do everything well, from grabs to moving around and using weapons. He's all archetypes in a single character so he has no weaknesses at all, and grenades really help in boss battles if you have trouble against one of them. Being able to use every single melee weapon as a long ranged projectile is a crucial mechanic because it gives you a safe way to get in and attack enemies from afar, and should be abused as much as possible for a quick 1CC.

re: scoring in beat'em ups

Sadly, scoring in these games is very random due to random item drops. It's a shame because with a little of logic you could perfectly add a decent scoring to any brawler, but for some reason Capcom insisted in tying scoring to random items.

It really depends on the game, too. Unlike shmups, some brawlers are based around instantaneous enemy attacks for which you simply need to know the enemy ai.

Learning AI patterns isn't such a relevant thing. A lot of enemies do attack you very fast, but you only get hit if for some reason you charge at them blindly from the front at very close range. Spacing, positioning and crowd control are much more important, and many fighting game bsics translate to belt scrollers.

As an aside, I've been torturing myself with FInal Fight. The more I play it, the more I think that anyone who thinks this is a great game hasn't spend much time with anything after it. Too many oversights that got solved afterwards. No invincibility post knockdown is almost gamebreaking; if you get knocked down you are 90% dead. Bosses with 0 frame invincible half screen attacks and throw ranges that are longer than your katana's. Stupidly strict desperation move inputs. Slow as fuck walk speeds. Low damage output for your characters unless you resort to infinites. Enemies that can keep hitting you indefinitely unless you do a desperation move since most of them don't knock you down. And FUCK Holly Woods / El Gados and their Dhalsim like ranges. ANd there are many more stupid things I won't mention for the sake of brevity.

I've been able to reach Abigail once, but died when I lost my katana and my range advantage with it. I will keep playing it because I'm dumber that the game.

[Squire Grooktook]

It really depends on the game, too. Unlike shmups, some brawlers are based around instantaneous enemy attacks for which you simply need to know the enemy ai.

Learning AI patterns isn't such a relevant thing. A lot of enemies do attack you very fast, but you only get hit if for some reason you charge at them blindly from the front at very close range. Spacing, positioning and crowd control are much more important, and many fighting game bsics translate to belt scrollers.

Perhaps I phrased it poorly with enemy ai, but a challenge of pure spacing is oftendependent on knowing enemy range, speed, movement options, patterns, etc. if you enter a room with a boss who has near instant attacks, there's not much you can do if you don't know how much reach he has on his attacks, when he can do them, etc.

Like I said though, some games (especially the more evolved ones that you mention) avert this. For example AVP has the projectile attack and a large variety of other moves that can be used to perform relatively safe pokes on enemies until you understand their patterns better. King Dragon's and Knights of the Round have slower, more telegraphed enemy attacks and allow you to instantly block them on reaction.

I totally agree that understanding fighting game-esque concepts of spacing and punishing will definitely help mastering the genre.

[Hagane]

You can get by in most games by hitting at maximum range slightly from below or above, and you will never be hit if you time your attacks right. Using weapons that extend your attack range also helps. Of course in boss fights and some dumb games like Final Fight (though to be fair even in that game you outrange almost everyone with a katana or pipe) there's some more memorization, but generally there's no need to reverse engineer enemy AI and you must base your game on correctly managing your enemy crowds instead - if you play well (attacking from max range or from the sides, outranging them or using knockdowns to your advantage, using weapons and throws effectively, among other basics) they will not get the chance to hit you with fast or slow attacks.

I'll try to be as through as I can on the FAQ about those basics; once you get familiar with them you'll see just how accessible the genre really is compared to most other arcade games.

[Ruldra]

I've been able to reach Abigail once, but died when I lost my katana and my range advantage with it. I will keep playing it because I'm dumber that the game.

Abigail is exactly where things start to fall apart for me. Even after learning his patterns via savestates it's still a pretty tough fight, it's rare for me not to lose a life. Then stage 6 proceeds to finish me off as you go a very long way without any food items.

What character are you using?

[Hagane]

I use Cody, mostly for his knife (great for the annoying Gados / Woods), good neutral knee bash throw and various infinites.

I have a strat for Abigail that works as long as you do it right, which I've not had the luck to do on a run yet but worked on practice: pick the katana just before the fight (guaranteed pickup as far as I've seen) and wait for him to come at you. You can beat everything he does due to the katana's range, from the charge to punches and grabs, but the hard part is not getting hit by his friends and then losing the weapon. If you beat the first wave of enemies, you can kill Abigail before the fat guys come in. Just don't go hit him when he gets up because he has like 1000 invincibility frames when he gets up and it's a free throw for him.

[Ex_Mosquito]

The beat'em up FAQ I've been preparing is almost ready and hope to post it next week, and Ill be listing all the basic stuff that you can use in every game.

Nice! I wouldn't mind looking at that. I've thought about getting into more of the modern Capcom scrollers recently (well, early/mid 90's...) Final fight is the only one I've tackled and it sounds like I'm missing a lot of of the gameplay evolution. I guess it's like from WW to ST, almost?

[Hagane]

Final fight is the only one I've tackled and it sounds like I'm missing a lot of of the gameplay evolution. I guess it's like from WW to ST, almost?

You could put it that way. With something like Denjin Makai II you could even say it's like comparing WW with Guilty Gear.

If anyone cares, I have a preliminar version of the FAQ here. When I'm feeling less lazy I'll make a blog and post the final version with pictures. The images are still included and you can figure out where they belong. Lots of editing remain to be done, but you could get something out of it.

I tried Violent Storm and Night Slashers. Both are interesting games with interesting ideas that are both ruined by the same dumb mechanic: combo breakers for bosses. It's especially stupid for Violent Storm, since bosses can counter you even after a single hit, so all those interesting combos are useless against them and you have to stick to safe one or two hit attacks. Even more annoying is the choice to give them answers to everything and give them such fast walk speeds. A shame because with a few fixes they both could be rather good.

[Squire Grooktook]

IIRC wasn't Violent Storm changed for the worse in one region?

[andsuchisdeath]

IIRC wasn't Violent Storm changed for the worse in one region?

The US/Euro defaults don't yield extends.

The US region version has blood in the first loop too.

[Ex_Mosquito]

Final fight is the only one I've tackled and it sounds like I'm missing a lot of of the gameplay evolution. I guess it's like from WW to ST, almost?

You could put it that way. With something like Denjin Makai II you could even say it's like comparing WW with Guilty Gear.

If anyone cares, I have a preliminar version of the FAQ here. When I'm feeling less lazy I'll make a blog and post the final version with pictures. The images are still included and you can figure out where they belong. Lots of editing remain to be done, but you could get something out of it.

I tried Violent Storm and Night Slashers. Both are interesting games with interesting ideas that are both ruined by the same dumb mechanic: combo breakers for bosses. It's especially stupid for Violent Storm, since bosses can counter you even after a single hit, so all those interesting combos are useless against them and you have to stick to safe one or two hit attacks. Even more annoying is the choice to give them answers to everything and give them such fast walk speeds. A shame because with a few fixes they both could be rather good.

Wha, no comments?????

Nice! Excellent write-up! You worded it better than I ever could, brilliant stuff. Playing with little thought and randomly hitting buttons is how 90% of people play these games unfortunately. It's interesting what you said about playing on auto-pilot, I find myself doing this alot and I have to make a conscious effort to snap out of it and think, especially when I'm playing ST in verses.

[1up]

Would someone like to take a stab at ranking the CPS I+II brawlers from easy to hard depending on how hard to 1cc? (Feel free to correct the list I wrote down on the top of my head)

Alien vs Predator
Armored Warriors
Battle Circuit
Cadillacs and Dinosaurs
Captain Commando
Dungeons & Dragons: Shadow over Mystara
Dungeons & Dragons: Tower of Doom
Dynasty Wars
Final Fight
Knights of the Round
Magic Sword
The King of Dragons
The Punisher
Warriors of Fate

There's a lot of Capcom brawlers I haven't spend time on, but from the popular ones I find The King of Dragons the easier of the bunch. Mainly because of the Elf's ranged attack. It's also fascinating that some on here say The Punisher is easy. I get destroyed almost every time on the bus. I haven't spent more than a couple of hours on this game and maybe I haven't discovered the tricks yet?
Some of the hardest for me are the Dungeons & Dragons games because of the item management stuff. Figuring out what to use in what situation and rotating to the right item in the heat of battle....

[Squire Grooktook]

I recommend giving King of Dragon's a shot without Elf or Wizard (they're like playing Type Z in Crimzon Clover, completely broken). The game is a much more challenging and entertaining ride with any of the 3 melee classes, I actually prefer it to Knights of The Round (actually KOD probably one of my favorites, with the ridiculous length being my only real complaint). The hard mode settings on the dip switches also legitimately increase enemy agression and swarms, making for an even more engaging master course.