Dyslexic stage syndrome.

[Captain]

Does it sometimes feel or seem that the stages in a shmup are in the wrong order?

Diying like hell on stage 3 but stage 5 is an easy no-miss?

Game requires lots of use of its (if any) special mechanics in one stage, but the next one is just a boring shooting fest?

Lately I've seen this happen in far too many games. For example, Stage 6 of Hellsinker is much harder than stage 7, am I not wrong?

I think that devs try to force a certain gameplay style on every stage, they think about what the player will have to do to survive, but do not actually think about the difficulty of whatever they try to force.

[trap15]

Code: Select all

<REDACTED> it's called "bad difficulty scaling"
<REDACTED> can this guy stop posting for a few hours?

I don't disagree.

[Captain]

redacted

There is literally only two people this could be. Don't try too hard.

[davyK]

Getting past level 3 of Mushi Futari feels a bit like getting over a bump. Level 4 is tough but doesn't feel harder than level 3 -feels far more manageable (even though I haven't got to the lvl 4 boss yet on 1 credit).

[amdiggywhut]

Mushi Futari

Came in here to say this.

[DestroyTheCore]

Mushi Futari

Came in here to say this.

That was the first game that came to mind as well.

[cave hermit]

Getting past level 3 of Mushi Futari feels a bit like getting over a bump. Level 4 is tough but doesn't feel harder than level 3 -feels far more manageable

Agreed.

[Ed Oscuro]

redacted

There is literally only two people this could be. Don't try too hard.

well I'm Spartacus

[Noah!]

anyway so i can see a few intentional reasons for balancing stages like this. of course they might be bullshit reasons but at least they're reasons.

1) it can lead to better pacing, giving the game a sort of rhythmic push and pull. this likely matters more and more the longer the game gets—especially once you start approaching the hour mark like with hellsinker.

2) having a stage which you already have the skills for is a nice way of affirming your improvement.

which could tie into what you said about devs encouraging different gameplay styles. imo level design is interesting because you're trying to make something fun to play but you're also trying to make something that prepares the player for what's to come. hence why early stages tend to be doable with basic skills (shoot, dodge) while later stages start relying on increasingly-peripheral elements of the game's design (don't just hold down shot but use laser, positioning, timing bullet cancels, controlling your rate of fire, etc). so yeah unevenness can come simply in virtue of some elements being easier to learn than others, and it gets tricky if you have a difficult one which combines with others in cool ways. if you push it back then you have much less time to explore its full potential.

(though this is actually a somewhat different point and i'm curious if you could give some examples of what you mean)

3) you gotta remember that the genre has its roots in trying to get you off the machine asap. so e.g. raizing games tend to give stage 2 a noticeable difficulty bump, especially for scoreplayers. beginners get a life or two sapped and limp out toward the 10-minute mark (iirc the ideal intersection between player satisfaction and machine turnover), while experts who might normally play for 30 minutes now gotta fight to make it past 5.

this is probably also the reasoning behind futari stage 3. cave is the product of straight decades of arcade experience, so i'm assuming they've figured out that it's best for the gloves to come off as the 10-minute mark approaches.

and personally, i kind of like having an early-game peak instead of having to stay on autopilot for three stages before something interesting happens. even if the next stage or two is easy, the holy shit we have a run now effect kicks in and you're invested.

4) a personal theory, but game overing on the penultimate stage is like fuuuck whereas game overing on the final stage is like oh shit i can do this. even if it's a lie, it gets players to try again. so in the case of futari stage 4, they might've eased it up to induce that effect.

5) though it could also be, like, sometimes you're making a game and just run out of time

[trap15]

Is there a way to bookmark posts? Because that's a lot of good game dev knowledge there.

[SapphireDensetsu]

Because that's a lot of good game dev knowledge there.

seconded

[mastermx]

Because that's a lot of good game dev knowledge there.

seconded

Thirded

[Squire Grooktook]

Personally, I never found Futari stage 3 to be harder then 4. The only tricky part is the roly worms at the end, and I never found them that hard once you get a feel for them. Still something that can fuck you up if you're not playing well. I think stage 4 is more or less equally as hard on a moment to moment basis, it's just longer and more fatiguing (in a good way). On average I find myself dying more frequently on 4 then 3.

Then again, we're talking about original, right?

[BulletMagnet]

The only tricky part is the roly worms at the end, and I never found them that hard once you get a feel for them.

The stage 3 boss also seems to take significantly longer to die than stage 4's, unless that's my imagination at work.

[Bananamatic]

there's no way in hell stage 3 is harder than 4 in original

if you want to see some real difficulty rollercoaster, look at futari ultra with the stage 2 boss being the hardest outside of larsa, midbosses that are mostly an autobomb or luck based and some patterns that are even easier than their original counterparts

the stage 4 boss is also way too easy, the stage 2 one is several times harder
also TLB larsa being much easier than the dragon form which is a complete life drain

[Squire Grooktook]

The only tricky part is the roly worms at the end, and I never found them that hard once you get a feel for them.

The stage 3 boss also seems to take significantly longer to die than stage 4's, unless that's my imagination at work.

The last pattern is definitely harder then anything in stage 4. Not sure if he's longer overall, but yeah he's probably harder.

[BIL]

Is there a way to bookmark posts? Because that's a lot of good game dev knowledge there.

Dunno if the forum software has the feature, but you can copy the link from the little Post-It Note icon next to the post's date/time info (upper right), then bookmark that in your browser. I'm always doing this with Hardware forum posts. ^_~

Gun.Smoke has a noticeably uneven difficulty curve over its ten stages, with two harsh spikes that might prove extremely discouraging if you don't realise the intensity dips after them. Stage 3 is as hard, usually harder, than anything after. Stage 6 is both balls-hard and for some reason at least three times the length of every other stage.

Particularly with the way the game unspools its ten Wanted posters at the start of a run, you might have the impression after stage 3 that you're in for a nightmare, when in reality you've seen much of the worst the game can do.

[IseeThings]

As I've said in previous threads I don't really have anything against a game having good dynamics, lull you into a false sense of security then hit you hard again when you're less focused etc.

Just ramping the difficulty to 'full on all the time' is boring, it's no better than when the audio is full 11/10 all the time, and graphics are nothing but relentless explosions - it looks pretty in screenshots / videos but is actually less impressive than using such things properly.

For that reason cases where Level 4 is easier than Level 3 could be a design decision, not only to catch the player off-guard when it gets tough again, but also to make them appreciate the game more, give them time to take things in etc. Also in a well designed game you might have a stage which is easier to survive, but more difficult to score - what criteria are you actually basing 'difficulty' on in the first place?

[BareKnuckleRoo]

The last pattern [of the stage 3 boss] is definitely harder then anything in stage 4. Not sure if he's longer overall, but yeah he's probably harder.

To a beginner or someone who doesn't understand the pattern, I'd agree. It looks scary as hell. I certainly was afraid of it when I was new to Futari.

But when you understand how it works, it's pretty easy actually. The boss fires AIMED orbs at you which are tap dodgeable. The brighter pink bullets fired off are static - just start at on side of the screen and make tiny tap dodges, adjusting slightly with a longer tap dodge if one of the static bullets is flying towards you.

Evem without paying attention to the static shots you should get through this with just tap dodges like 60% of the time.

[To Far Away Times]

I saw the opening post and had a feeling there would be a lot of posts about Futari. Stage 3 is definitely a kick in the nuts compared to stage 4 and stage 5 (atleast up until the final boss).

[PC Engine Fan X!]

Try playing the second loop of Vapor Trail PCB and you'll find out that the bullets move faster than your ship does -- did Data East intend for ace VT players to ace both loops on a single 1CC session back when it debuted in the game centers/arcades worldwide? Not really as it was primarily designed as a quarter muncher, yen muncher & pence muncher much to the delight of arcade owners/operators. Of course, when profits weren't doing as well, it was simply a matter of swapping out the stale & aging VT PCB with another different Jamma PCB conversion kit + changing the outer marquee + all new control panel artwork to try to earn some more hard-earned $$$ from the arcade gamers. Rinse and repeat...the same ol' grind -- day in and day out for 'em arcade operators (not to mention if you were an arcade operator with a "street route" and having to check your games at retail locations and doing the usual emptying of the coin boxes and sharing the profits 50/50 with the various business owners fair 'n' square + swapping arcade cabs between locations if it needed be -- it's business as usual).

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~