Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[BIL]

You guys always forget the Atari Lynx version of Ninja Gaiden...

Which one? NGIII's just a pixellated NES port and the arcade game's a beltscroller. Ignored but not forgotten! :3

[cicada88]

You guys always forget the Atari Lynx version of Ninja Gaiden...

Which one? NGIII's just a pixellated NES port and the arcade game's a beltscroller. Ignored but not forgotten! :3

haha. Yeah, I'm definitely not going to recommend any. Just thought I'd throw a wrench

[CIT]

Cleared KAGE today. Took some time to get used to it after playing Ninja Gaidens for about three weeks (even though it's a lot easier overall), as the gameplay really is quite different; slower and more methodical, actually closer to Castlevania than the directly inspired NGs. Most enemies require a couple of hits to kill, and the power-down can really mess with you early on, when you don't know the stages and enemies yet. But I love how the game incentivizes precision and efficiency of the player. Once you know what you're doing the game really opens up and becomes like a well-choreographed ninja ballet — just the way a ninja sidescroller should be!

BTW, Kage really reminded me of Raf World, both in terms of pacing as well as graphics style and the post-apocalyptic atmosphere. It is the better game though.

[blackoak]

@CIT, I should really revisit KAGE, and stop expecting it to be another Ninja Gaiden. Good to hear it was satisfying once you got into it.

@BIL, how do you handle the fire spewing "dragon" things in stage 2 of Holy Diver? Everything before that is pretty trivial, but I can never get past the succession of those. I think trap15 was saying to just run past them...

[trap15]

I take my time on them. Slowly step forward until they spawn, then blow the hell out of them with the double-shot. They always take a large leap before spewing fire, so that's your cue to get to a different elevation, which is helpfully laid out for each of the dragons.

[BIL]

Was messing about with Kage myself today, wanted to see how it felt after lots of GB Ninja Gaiden. Suffice to say GB is pretty much Kage Jr - very similar enemy and level designs, but simplified so that you can get good routes down and authoritatively mow through the game in a fraction of the time. Not a very hard or deep game but the quality is unmistakable - it still feels ninja as hell ghosting through each stage without taking a scratch. Reminds me of stuff like Elemental Master, where even if it's technically an "easy" time, it keeps you so busy that tedium never gets a chance to set in.

The FC game is a good complement to twitchier stuff like the FC NGs. It really doesn't do their popcorn frenzies or off the cuff killing on the run; even very minor foes tend to block your path, requiring some deft technique to take out cleanly. This can feel very stop/start at first, particularly with the powerdowns after four hits, but the stages absolutely fly past once you get good routes down. Good example is that turret battery early in stage 4 - after initially picking forward between salvos, it feels so awesome tearing through it with the max sword and grenades (that you now know are waiting there to be chucked!).

Holy Diver's ghastly DEATH GHIDORA zombiedragons, yeah - the game's first really nasty heavy-type enemies, and they're Blizzard-proof too! Like trap suggested, you can take your time luring them out from the right, while you stay out of their firing line (your back is clear throughout that entire corridor). That's a critical bit of info on their hop-fire behaviour. In the air they're harmless (provided you're not close enough to get bumped), on the floor, don't be lined up with them. Once you know how to keep them at a safe distance/position, Twin Fire will take them out pretty easily. The bats in that tunnel complicate things, of course... you can Blizzard them while dealing with Ghidoras but I prefer to go without and use the MP on Twin Fire, taking bats down with default shot between dragons. The bats don't have much of a horizontal reach, making it fairly easy to ignore them until the deadlier enemy is taken out.

...Holy Diver is such a goddamn nightmare. You could practically write a separate FAQ for each stage.

[CIT]

Just cleared Jigoku Gokurakumaru. I like how the game is perfectly designed around the swinging mechanic and stages are super fun indeed, but on the flipside I found the bossfights a bit lacking in terms of tactical finesse. Also, the sound is a bit weak in spots. Overall a cool game, but not quite up to standards set by the Ninja Gaidens and Kage.

[BIL]

You're on quite a roll!

Dunno if you saw it, but Jigoku has a hidden post-credits message from our hero advising the kids of early 90s Japan to watch for his next adventure. It's a shame it never happened, I think it could've been a real classic with a little refinement to the controls and difficulty curve. For the former, the short jump takes a little too featherlight a touch to execute (odd, given how perfectly they nailed the much more unique somersault's input). For the curve, I think the game could've introduced the final stage's truly demanding acrobatics a bit earlier. Stage 3 strongly hints at it with the total focus on vertical ascent, but 4 kind of loses the momentum with a return to more standard-issue action. I would've liked the finale to be a real gauntlet, burning hoops and all.

I actually like the game's second boss the best of the set. The tracking laser options are good fun to keep ahead of while dealing with the unpredictable target himself. The fifth's massive robot looks spectacular but boils down to "punch and jump," rather anticlimactic. All's forgiven with the stage itself though, great fun scaling 5-2's tower of bones.

For my own sidescrolling exploits, I finished Order of Ecclesia's main game over the last couple evenings. I never got into the previous two DS outings, and didn't like HOD/AOS much either, but Hagane's recommendation of OOE several months back piqued my interest. Ended up really enjoying it - I know it got some criticism for the relatively linear areas, but I prefer them and their focus on combat with meaty enemies to yet another castle. And when the castle eventually does show up, you've already got all your basic navigational tools, so the game remains primarily a seek and destroy affair with wandering reserved for hidden treasures (a few really well-obscured).

Difficulty seemed just right with some memorable monsters and bosses more than capable of punishing mistakes, controls are as impeccably smooth as SOTN's, and the weapons have a tremendous sense of impact - always a big plus for me. Loved massacring screenloads of cave trolls with the scythe super. Some very cool special weapons in there too. The speed boost glyph is a joy to run rings around enemies with, and I liked exploiting Dominus Agony's health-sapping "overdrive" mechanic to inflict bursts of immense damage. Still haven't cleared the two COTM-style optional areas either, or most of the villager sidequests.

The more muted artistic tone is far more to my liking as well. As noted a few posts back I particularly enjoy IV's bleaker settings, and OOE's dilapidated residences and misty forest paths are totally in that vein. Shanoa is a great lead character design, too, stylish and convincingly tough. I was playing a ROM I stuck on my flashcard on a whim, but will be picking up a copy for my collection shortly. In many ways this is the sequel I wished SOTN had gotten. Other than the small screen, but that's obviously not its fault. Will be interested to see if an official TV-out solution from Nintendo ever materialises, otherwise may well look into the Nisetoro mod.

[Squire Grooktook]

Thanks for the Castlevania recommendations earlier. I think I have to agree that Bloodlines is probably the best overall. Though CV1 is also a pretty good contender, though mostly because of that last triumvirate of bosses.

I like the idea of light/heavy attacks in Bloodlines, but are they really that useful? I'm not seeing much purpose to the heavy attacks so far.

Also yeah OOE is pretty fun, and probably second best (or even tied) for best game aesthetically after SOTN. I'm particularly fond of the sunset mansion where you fight Goliath, and the misty manor where Albus resides (incidentally, both places where "Hard Won Nobility" plays). I also like how they finally have a use for grounded attacks in that game, since it's easier to chain them, making up for the inability to move freely.

I'm a bit partial to Dawn of Sorrow though. IMO of all the classic CV Metroidvania's, it's by far the most polished and best designed. Great bosses, good difficulty curve, just the right length, lots of different useful abilities and varied enemy types, etc. etc. Probably tied with OOE for me, though maybe I could get a three way tie going if I played Circle of The Moon again.

Portrait of Ruin is enjoyable too for me, but it's too uneven. For every genuinely enjoyable painting, there's a total snoozer to follow it up. And for every awesome, challenging fight, there's at least one that's far too easy (though this gets a bit better late game). Fun but inferior to OOE I think.

Outside of Circle of The Moon, I don't like the two GBA games either. For AOS, Outside of getting to fight Julius and Chaos (one of the most awesomely lovecraftian boss designs I've ever seen), most of the boss fights and environments are terribly forgettable. Harmony of Dissonance is probably a worse game, but I actually find it a tad more interesting sheerly for it's relentlessly gloomy atmosphere.


Also if you like OOE, I highly recommend Rogue Legacy. It's basically what would happen if OOE's combat was improved and taken to its logical conclusion. Perfect mix of very light (randomly generated) exploration and heavy arcade style beat downs with well designed foes and treacherous platforming level design. The bosses (ALL OF THEM) are amazing examples of balancing rng with strategy too: you can think the fights through for better results, but you're never safe from the need to pull a random dodge. It can even be played like an arcade game, as aiming for a low death run will cause the game to be become 1/3rd as long, clearable in one sitting easily. Balls hard though.

[BIL]

Since they immobilise targets while damage is being dealt, Bloodlines' heavy attacks are very useful for tagging on an extra hit where normally the target would escape. For example, if a circling ghost is just at the limit of your striking distance, instead of going for two light attacks with the second whiffing, just stick a heavy attack on it for a guaranteed kill. They're also good for shutting down and demolishing heavy enemies like minotaurs and axe armours (provided you've not got other threats demanding consideration). Light attacks will give them far more time to retaliate, besides taking longer to finish the job. There's also a correctional use - if you start up an attack a bit too early, holding the button can extend it just enough to connect.

The flip side is, of course, light attacks are handy when time is critical, say batting away an incoming fireball then immediately regaining control to leap and downstrike an incoming bat. The light/heavy option is also very good to have when dealing with the game's Bone Pillars, particularly the enormous one early in stage 5. Since only the bottom one can hit a crouching player, but the bottom several will target and fire regardless, you'll find the ability to alter attack tempo to sync with the fireballs of each new arrival at the bottom welcome.

It's a rather understated, subtle mechanic that allows a bit of extra finesse - I really like it. I should say I use John 99% of the time, so I've no idea if the above applies quite as strongly to Eric (though his heavy attack gets a flashy animation, so there's that!). Eric also has an odd spear twirl executed by holding the button, then switching direction. Not sure if you can do anything neat there. I need to use Eric more in general actually... I'm a one character/ship kind of player so this is the status quo for me. I only just discovered Rondo's Maria after ten years or so.

Harmony of Dissonance's sheer garishness kind of drew me in on a recent-ish replay. I found it dog-ugly at release, and still don't think it's terribly good as a game, but man... these days all the blood red, canary yellow and lime green (often simultaneously!) almost reminds me of Dario Argento's obsession with gel lights in his lurid slasher flicks.

Thanks for reminding me about Rogue Legacy, I remember now you mentioned it before. I've got a godawful way of putting stuff off! It took me months to get around to OOE, haha. That sounds amazing.

[Squire Grooktook]

Also for HOD, even if the music isn't as catchy (and VERY lo-fi, dammit), there's something strangely...oppressive about a lot of the tracks.

Actually that might be the reason I didn't notice the light/heavy difference in Bloodlines: I've been playing with Eric (due to interest in his anytime invincibility frame move), and I don't think the heavy gives a damage boost for him. Actually, I'm not sure how damage works with him yet. Sometimes I get 1 damage from a heavy, sometimes I get 2 from a light. I think it might be based on enemy proximity to the halberds blade when struck or something, not sure.

[BIL]

John's the more offensively-geared character, as far as I can tell. Eric has the advantage of a polevault that can escape or bypass situations John will have to avoid getting into to begin with, and he can also strike directly overhead or 45' above without leaving the safety of the ground. OTOH John can hit stuff that's much higher in the air (really shows vs stage 5's boss), and his special, while obviously needing an overhead ceiling, is much more suited to aggressively killing stuff or getting within range to do so, in addition to working as a bypass (stage 4 boss's rushing attacks are a prime example).

edited three times! don't you love it when you think you're posting a new message but you're actually editing your last one?

[CIT]

I think the GBA/DS Castlevanias got better with every successive iteration, culminating in the truly excellent Ecclesia (actually everything from Aria of Sorrow was really good, imo). Circle of the Moon and Harmony of Dissonance are kind of tossups. I really like CoM's magic cards, but hate the sticky controls that seem lifted out of a B-grade SFC anime tie-in (like the wasted potential of Hyper Iria). HoD plays nice enough, but is structurally boring and the low-bitrate sound turn already dull compositions into aural torture.

[BIL]

HOD actually has one of my absolute series favourites in "Offense and Defense" (Marble Corridor). The sense of two halves locked in escalating conflict, piling on tension until a catastrophic breakdown before everything begins anew is classic VGM mini-theatre. I also love the positioning of that call and response dynamic over a dispassionate, relentless rhythmic pulse.

Other than the decent Entryway theme "Successor of Fate," though, it totally outclasses the rest of the soundtrack. I don't mind the buzzy tone too much (kinda reminds me of MSX Gradius music, albeit nowhere as charmingly handled), but a lot of its compositions are just weak, most damagingly of all the boss tracks. And despite it having one of my series faves, it also has Luminous Cave, perhaps the only Castlevania music I'll immediately mute my speakers for.

[trap15]

Look at all this wrong hate on HoD's music. By far one of the best GBA soundtracks imo. It might be lo-fi and chippy sounding but at least it's not hideous farting samples that the GBA is well-known for. Composition is great and is always a great mood setter. Dunno what else you could ask for.

[BIL]

Messed about in Vampire Killer with Eric a bit earlier today. Immediately noticed the game handles his weapon hitbox differently than John's whip - seems pickier. I'm used to jumping towards the destroyable wall right after the hellhound miniboss, and leisurely smashing the whole thing with a quick whip. Do this with Eric at too close a range, and you'll completely whiff with his spearhead uselessly going offscreen. Seems the spearhead has to connect (overlap) with a target, where John's whip is all business.

Having said that, provided he connects Eric still employs heavy/light attacks just like John, scoring two and one hits respectively. I totally forgot to note as well, not all enemies can be hitstunned and thus comboed. It makes sense to launch a subweapon at a beholder, minotaur or axe armor, followed by a heavy attack - it'll all pile on for huge, immobilising and probably fatal damage. Armed skeletons, bone pillars and bone dragons aren't fazed by hits, nor will they register more than one hit at a time, so it's useless to attempt similar stun+kill tactics. Instead you want to hit them quickly and deftly while keeping a safe distance.

Also noticed Eric's spear has a taller hitbox than the whip. He can hit at least two bone pillar segments per attack, three if you're attacking 45' upward. I'm an inveterate single character gamer but I'm really enjoying the slightly different perspective Spear Guy puts on a run.

[CStarFlare]

I lost my copy of HOD almost immediately after buying it, so I'm almost completely unfamiliar with how it plays or sounds. Offense and Defense makes me wish they were still making Dracula Battle discs, though.

[BIL]

Hmm, weird. Just tried recording a quick demo of Eric's light/heavy attacks using my trusty guinea pig, Basement Ghost. Turns out that although you can still extend Eric's attack duration by holding the button, you'll actually inflict two hits by default in most cases. The exception seems to be a vertical strike, shown below in light and heavy versions respectively. Seems that in Eric's case, holding the button is primarily for setting up his spear twirl, where John can only land a single hit without doing so. I like that the two weapons actually handle differently, as opposed to merely fast/weak and slow/strong variants of a single template.



Just a scratch.



DIE MUHFUCKA

[Squire Grooktook]

Interesting. I find the spear twirl is most effective as a defensive tool against close range zakos that rush you. For example, against Medusa heads or the gargoyle skeletons that circle you while scaling Piza, I will frequently attack in the opposite direction and then twirl as they approach. It gives you a massive and very long lasting attack hitbox that almost completely covers you and shuts them down.

[BIL]

Forgot to say, got a big kick out of seeing Nobuya Nakazato's name in OOE's credits! An even bigger kick than the game including arrangements of "The Tower of Dolls" (for its tower of gears) and "Riddle" from X68k and Densetsu respectively. The latter is the Wicked Child of its game, a masterpiece overshadowed by legendary stage 1 BGM. Towering baroque intensity and technique befitting a formidably long, treacherous penultimate stage.

Also, DORAKYURA really went Full Rugal in this game, didn't he? Stylist recommended by Richard Branson, a reverse Genocide Cutter (unfortunately looking a tad "ministry of silly walks"), Soul Steal as the HCB rushing command throw... also on the John Cleese front, I'd never really thought about it until now - in 20+ years of the series prior, you never see Dracula walk anywhere. I preferred him like that tbh, walking's for chumps.

edit: oh rofl. Frequent Dracula VA Norio Wakamoto actually voiced Rugal in KOF 2002. No wonder it felt so familiar dodging those rushing grabs.

[Ghegs]

I picked up something called Heisei Tensai Bakabon, a licensed game based on a 60's/70's manga. It's a bit like Prince of Persia with the way the main character handles, and how he has plenty of animation to him. The stages aren't quite as interesting as in PoP and though they change graphically a lot, they're more or less the same practically. They do have plenty of hidden items, which is fun. Still a decent title though it's definitely a conteder for a "weird Japanese games"-list. Might even be considered a kusoge in Japan, but then, I'm the kind of person who thinks Spelunker is pretty awesome, so.

I bought the game because it's apparently going to be a challenge in Game Center CX, so I looked up a video to see what it's like and purchased the game without even trying it out first, heh.

[Squire Grooktook]

Forgot to say, got a big kick out of seeing Nobuya Nakazato's name in OOE's credits! An even bigger kick than the game including arrangements of "The Tower of Dolls" (for its tower of gears) and "Riddle" from X68k and Densetsu respectively. The latter is the Wicked Child of its game, a masterpiece overshadowed by legendary stage 1 BGM. Towering baroque intensity and technique befitting a formidably long, treacherous penultimate stage.

Also, DORAKYURA really went Full Rugal in this game, didn't he? Stylist recommended by Richard Branson, a reverse Genocide Cutter (unfortunately looking a tad "ministry of silly walks"), Soul Steal as the HCB rushing command throw... also on the John Cleese front, I'd never really thought about it until now - in 20+ years of the series prior, you never see Dracula walk anywhere. I preferred him like that tbh, walking's for chumps.

edit: oh rofl. Frequent Dracula VA Norio Wakamoto actually voiced Rugal in KOF 2002. No wonder it felt so familiar dodging those rushing grabs.

Speaking of Dracula 3/Densetsu, am I the only one who thinks the Nes version of "Dead Beat" is punchier then the original Famicom version? Most of the tracks (despite nostalgia clouding my vision) I have to admit the Famicom is pretty good, but Dead Beats climax feels a lot more wicked on the nes.

[BIL]

Although I prefer the FC music overall, I don't consider it quite a clean sweep either - I think "Aquarius" sounds more beautiful in its softer NES incarnation, where the VRC6 rendition has a slight harshness that doesn't benefit the song. Not enough to ruin it or anything, but I prefer the vanilla NES one.

On the other hand, Vampire Killer ("Deja Vu") sounds pretty good in NES but MFN amazing on FC with the brighter treble and punching rhythm section. I think the more intensely technical compositions like "Clockwork," "Riddle" and the two iterations of "Big Battle" truly shine in VRC6, too - every note has amazing clarity. The last in particular reaches an ecstatic fury I never felt from the NES version, and has since become my favourite final battle BGM of the traditional series.

[CIT]

So. I cleared Master System Ninja Gaiden today:



I'll summarize my observations with a few bullet points:

- The game has Ninja Rykenden III's same slightly floatier controls and ability to grab on to ledges (but here without being able to move along them).

- The sword has a pretty long reach and large hitbox, kinda like NR III's powered up sword, which I really liked.

- No more grabbing on to walls, now you can do a Batman/Super Shinobi II style walljump, and stages have plenty of areas where this is the only way to proceed.

- Enemies have spawn-points, just like NR I&II.

- Subweapons got rearranged a bit. Windmill is gone and art of the fire wheel is now a homing shot. There are also two regular shuriken of varying strength and the invincible fire wheel.

- The game is very generous with Ninpo, once you max it out (which frugal players should be able to do by stage 2 or 3), the counter stops decreasing and you have infinite subweapon use (yes, even the invincible fire wheel!)

- The most difficult part of the game are the many hairy platforming segments, as you'll usually fall right to your death and the game has no extends. Overall difficulty is comparable with NR III.

- Bossfights are pretty unspectacular. OK, that's the case with the other NRs as well, but the final boss coulda been somewhat more imposing than that floating skull. I did like the Oyabun boss, who just sits there, while his yakuza minions try to storm you from all sides.

- Graphics are simultaneously better and worse than on Famicom — more colors and details, but no effects like parallax scrolling.

- The plot is much simpler (interestingly it's almost the same as the Xbox reboot) and cutscenes are much shorter.

- The game draws on pretty much every trope in the Japan™ book. There's sumo wrestler, yakuza, komusou monks, you save a geisha — of course the daughter of a great samurai — and there's even a little Japanese geezer with a camera who tries to snap you. As the game's a PAL-exclusive, it's almost like the devs tried as hard as possible to meet every perceived expectation Europeans might have of a Japanese ninja game.

All in all, it's pretty amazing how well Sims actually nailed the Ninja Ryukenden concept. This is definitely a legit contender with pretty much all the hallmarks that make these games good. If you like the series you're gonna want to check this one out.

So far, I think this is how I'd rank the 8-bit ninja games I've played:

1. Ninja Ryukenden
2. Ninja Ryukenden III
3. Kage
4. Ninja Gaiden (SMS)
5. Ninja Ryukenden II
6. Jigoku Gokurakumaru

[andsuchisdeath]

The game may have been mentioned within some context in this thread before..

What are peoples opinions on Ninja Crusaders?

The first loop is an easy clear, but the game becomes a bit more challenging in the second loop. Doubling your weapon grants extends so dying at certain checkpoints can give the player quite a bit of padding for screwing up if you know what weapons are ahead.

I really enjoy the games crude (late 1990) presentation too.

[BIL]

All in all, it's pretty amazing how well Sims actually nailed the Ninja Ryukenden concept. This is definitely a legit contender with pretty much all the hallmarks that make these games good. If you like the series you're gonna want to check this one out.

Interest piqued for sure, will give this a look over the weekend. And the PCE version just to finally get it out of the way. Is it particularly complicated running SMS Ninja Gaiden on a non-PAL console + display? Have to admit that was always a slight dampner on my enthusiasm. Actually the same goes for Power Strike II, Rastan and probably something else non-NTSJC I'm forgetting.

The game may have been mentioned within some context in this thread before..

What are peoples opinions on Ninja Crusaders?

The first loop is an easy clear, but the game becomes a bit more challenging in the second loop. Doubling your weapon grants extends so dying at certain checkpoints can give the player quite a bit of padding for screwing up if you know what weapons are ahead.

I really enjoy the games crude (late 1990) presentation too.

I was tempted to pick it up for a long time, but have decided against it for now. The compact sprites and speedy, deadly, sharply responsive action/platforming has an immediate appeal, and a not unwelcome resemblance to the NGs, but ultimately I don't find it as recklessly thrilling. Instant deaths ultimately weaken the formula by defusing the classic terror of Dracula/Ryukenden's pitfalls. Bumping something and dying instantly is a less nerve-wracking prospect than a storming run being stopped cold by an unfortunate hit that sent your character plummeting to their death.

I had absolutely no idea there was a second loop, though - might revisit it now. The falcon/dragon transformations seemed wayyy overpowered in the first, do they have any counterbalances the second time around? edit: Of course simply not using them's an option - I preferred doing this in Devil's Forest(?)/stage 3 and its fun branch-hopping/turret-dodging.

[CIT]

Interest piqued for sure, will give this a look over the weekend. And the PCE version just to finally get it out of the way. Is it particularly complicated running SMS Ninja Gaiden on a non-PAL console + display? Have to admit that was always a slight dampner on my enthusiasm. Actually the same goes for Power Strike II, Rastan and probably something else non-NTSJC I'm forgetting.

Not particularly complicated. I just stick a European Power Base Converter into my NTSC-J Mega Drive, and I'm good to go. The game wasn't optimized for PAL, so you'll be getting the real deal in 60Hz. Ninja Gaiden doesn't have FM sound either, which would otherwise be the only reason to play it on a Japanese or 60Hz and FM modded European SMS.

[trap15]

I can confirm Power Strike II runs great on an NTSC SMS. Brilliant game too.

[BIL]

Nice, two more for the list. Thanks guys. ^__^

[Obiwanshinobi]

Doesn't Power Strike II run faster on NTSC systems? Not always the case with 8-bit PAL games [I read PAL NES Super Turrican runs the same on NTSC consoles, except the music plays at higher pitch (not even faster)].