YUV cables for SNES, Genesis and perhaps Dreamcast

[mobyone]

Hello,

Just read a news about this new kind of cable so it could interesting for some of you: http://www.retrocollect.com/News/hd-ret ... ables.html

From my understanding, it could be useful if you don't want to use SCART cables but I don't expect a rendering difference between SCART and YUV cables.
If you are using an XRGB mini, SCART is still more convenient.

As they are saying, for dreamcast purpose, it could be cheaper than a VGA box and most of recent TV don't have VGA input anymore (european TVs for sure)


Paul.

[Ed Oscuro]

BuckoA51 has made a couple comments already (one on the 'tube and one on the article) - I added some input as well.

HD Retrovision is close to running afoul of the law here. They should look up a review of "Time Warner Cable, Inc. v. DIRECT TV, Inc. , 497 F.3d 144 (2d Cir. 2007)," for example, this one. For example: "The District Court found that the Internet Advertisements' facially false depictions of cable's picture quality could not be discounted as mere puffery because consumers were generally confused about HD technology which could lead them to actually rely on the images in deciding whether to hook up their HD television sets to DIRECTV or analog cable." Add in the good folks behind "HD Retrovision."

They might have a good product but I will not support them unless they either change their name or add something to the product information stipulating they only carry a standard-definition picture.

We should all put some pressure on these guys and also get the word out by social media to push HD Retrovision to do the right thing and change the misleading statements and advertising on display here.

[CkRtech]

Oh man...

Reading the YouTube comments at this point (good ones!) illustrates the inevitable storm should this thing get a lot of attention. The possibility is quite high that people see "HD," "Component," and say to themselves, "Hey - I have those plugs on my HDTV. This should work perfectly."

But then I guess the other question is - how will the word get out? Will it get out mostly via forums like this one and many others? If so, I think that those of us in the know are going to write posts like Ed just did and add explanation where necessary that it is just not that simple.

Or will gaming websites do a write-up about the cables and hit a much larger audience? If that is the case, it is up to those journalists to drop the YMMV asterisk into the article or even write the article with a cautionary slant. I am sure there are plenty of people that have read past articles regarding RGB and upscaling on those sites - for instance, about the framemeister - and simply written it off because they don't want to drop the cash or even mess with new cables and upscalers, etc.

This comes off as a simple one cable fixes all push, and it could end up turning "shut up and take my money" into "hey, wait a second..."

[Pasky]

Just a cable with a BA6592F or variant within it. This was advertised a while back on assembler games.

[blizzz]

So what does it actually do? Just transcode RGB to component? That is a horrible idea, as Nintendo found out with the Wii VC. Support for 240p component is not common and they had to patch 480i into their emulator. And calling that 'high definition' is just ughh...

Edit: Read the Youtube comments. I'm not sure if they are just incompetent or real scammers.

[antron]

So what does it actually do? Just transcode RGB to component? That is a horrible idea, as Nintendo found out with the Wii VC. Support for 240p component is not common and they had to patch 480i into their emulator. And calling that 'high definition' is just ughh...

I wouldn't say it's a horrible idea, if your TV supports 240p over component it can be downright awesome. But definitely not HD (despite the Genesis having "High Definition Graphics" lol. )

But there is no reason to put the transcoder in the cable. Just get a SCART to Component box so you can connect all your consoles.

[Fudoh]

Saw this today as well and was at first wondering what they're doing. The cables have just built-in transcoders, yes.

In their FAQ they adress the 240p incompatibility problem and they claim it's nearly gone these days. And they've basically announced a linedoubling cable there as well.

[ms06fz]

While I can appreciate the issues here surrounding the limitations of a product like this and misuse of the term "HD" - I have been hoping to get just such a product. (Actually my plan so far was to get Viletim's component board once it's available and install it in the housing from an N64 RF modulator) If the price is decent I may give 'em a try.

[Ed Oscuro]

So long as it works correctly, I have no problems with what they've made - they don't need to thoroughly educate consumers, and buyer beware also applies. But I think I can spend a little bit of attention to try to save them from their own short-sighted advertising. There is a big difference between saying "here's something anybody can use" and claiming that it will do something it will not.

Dunno what response they will make to me, but the fact is clear that the one guy posted that this "transcodes to HD" right in the comments on the video (and also in Google+) and they didn't correct that.

[blizzz]

I'm not saying that an RGB to component transcoder is useless, but the way they advertise it is problematic. Transcoders are useful for CRT TVs with component input and for easy recording. For LCD TVs this might work ok, but in most cases it will be a bad experience or not work at all. Far away from a true plug-and-play solution.

They also advertise their cables as the "best possible output" while they are obviously a tiny bit worse than RGB cables by design and far away from a good scaler.

And we're not going to tell you "Trust us, it's there." Instead, let's have a look at some zoom-ins from the SNES.

They pretend to educate their customers, but after that they show a comparison between composite and component. You would at least expect S-Video, which would be very close to their component picture.

Their target audience are obviously people who are not well informed, but these people will expect a sharp 720p picture based on their marketing. On my Sony TV it would work, but it would have screen tearing and input lag. On most of my other devices with component input it wouldn't even show a picture. They won't have many happy customers if they really sell it.

[CkRtech]

In their FAQ they address the 240p incompatibility problem and they claim it's nearly gone these days.

They weren't very specific about that. What they said was actually rather ambiguous:

Indeed, that is true. The input stages in some TVs & display devices were not properly designed and do not accept 240p/288p timing signals over the component video connection. However, based on new trends in how TVs are designed, we believe that this problem is becoming increasingly rare with newer sets. Regardless, we have a future product in early development which will completely eliminate this concern.

I assume the future product that they mention is the linedoubling cable to which you were referring, Fudoh. Hopefully, this is available at launch. The ambiguity of the 240p issue "becoming increasingly rare (not eliminated) with newer sets (how much newer?)" does not really give a good idea of what era of sets will likely work with it.

Also - how many people own "newer" sets vs those that have had their HDTV for awhile? I don't really know the answer, and I have no idea what sort of concern I should have if say I wanted to literally recommend these cables to friends that aren't interested in upscalers.

On the BA6592F front, I modified a SNES for Component using the built in encoder (S-ENC). It looks decent (colors from that native component output mod are known to be rather...not quite accurate) when I tested it through the iScan HD, but it would not take with the component input on the elgato Game Capture HD. I sheepishly e-mailed elgato about that at the time I did the mod, and their response was that they weren't going to make an effort to support it since it wasn't a native output of the system.

Unless Retrovision's circuit is more compatible or elgato made a software/firmware update since I last tried the Component SNES, I think it is fair to assume that users won't be able to use the Game Capture HD to stream SNES gameplay.

...but hopefully they can!

[Pasky]

Very few capture cards will accept a 240P input. None of the USB external devices will that I am aware of.

The BA6592F and it's variant (forgot the name) have pretty poor color transcoding. You get very weak yellows and everything tends to be more purple.

[Ed Oscuro]

And we're not going to tell you "Trust us, it's there." Instead, let's have a look at some zoom-ins from the SNES.

They pretend to educate their customers, but after that they show a comparison between composite and component. You would at least expect S-Video, which would be very close to their component picture.

Not just that, but they are playing around with aspect ratio / pixel mapping magic that is not at all a feature of these kinds of cables. The "zoom-in" I saw from the video suggested an emulator screenshot more than real game footage; it might BE real game footage captured off a real HD screen, but how they got it to that picture was assuredly not a hassle-free experience.

Their target audience are obviously people who are not well informed, but these people will expect a sharp 720p picture based on their marketing.

This is also confusing. There is no reason to target people this way, because those people will still notice something is wrong, get pissed, and then this company will likely have to disappear in a puff of shame. There is no reason they should be actively marketing it in a way ensured to piss off people who know what's going on.

[Pasky]

It's fairly obvious they're looking to make a few hundred orders and bail. Is the company even registered in any state or did they simply make a name and claim a company? Probably just a DBA.

[Ed Oscuro]

I'm hoping that their response will reveal something more about their intentions here. But I wanted them to know up front that the gaming community won't stand for a pile of garbage, and that their honeymoon will be basically nonexistent if they don't show a little good faith.

[RGB0b]

I saw these cables when the company first launched the website. I've always had mixed feelings...

Many people don't want to bother getting an RGB monitor (or upscaler) and just want to use the CRT they already own to play their old consoles. If their TV doesn't have SCART inputs (pretty much none in North America do), I usually suggest S-Video, since I don't often see a big picture quality difference between S-Video and RGB (converted to component) on your average consumer-grade CRT (not talking about high-end TV's). For these people, if their CRT has component inputs that accept 240p, the Genesis cable might be a good solution, since an unmodified console only outputs composite and RF.

Other then that, I'm not sure if these cables would ever be a better choice over RGB SCART. If their next release outputs 480p with no lag, then I guess there's a few more scenarios they'd be a good choice...but it always comes down to money: Most people either want to get the best output from their systems and don't mind spending a few hundred, or they just want to use the equipment they already own and spend the least amount of money possible. If you're looking to save money (or just buy something to use until you find a nice RGB monitor), you can get SNES S-Video cables for $6 shipped. I can't really think of a scenario I'd want to use these instead.

Also, I agree with everyone's opinion here that their website is misleading. It actually reminded me of this product (anyone outside of the US ever see this?):

http://youtu.be/mKYKyIObXyM

[blizzz]

From the Youtube comments:

As a small organization, your input is invaluable; we sincerely appreciate your help.

In the most basic reply, we can't feel good about misleading our friends and fellow enthusiasts of classic gaming. Nor do we want to.
[...]
So we made a simple decision: we must better represent what the actual product does in order to avoid any confusion.
[...]
we need to ensure we properly convey what it is our cables accomplish - how they really work to improve the game experience, albeit not to HD resolution, but to provide the best and clearest connectivity to HDTVs as possible.
[...]

Looks like they understand that their marketing is misleading. Though they still call it the best connectivity to HDTVs as possible, while they acknowledge in other replies that XRGB products are superior.

The lag due to deinterlacing on Majora's Mask is a toss-up. We have no guarantee that if you hooked up the 480i directly into your HDTV via component, the HDTV's processing will be all that much faster than your SCART->HDMI box. However, newer TVs usually do have a "Game Mode" of some kind which turns off a lot of the processing to decrease your input lag. Again, it's not something you should count on without testing first. On a brighter note, we do have a product in the works that would fix this issue for you.

This is quite interesting. They're basically saying that they plan to release a product that will deinterlace / scale a signal with less lag than an average converter. Only time will tell how this turns out.

Edit: Just saw this blog post: http://www.hdretrovision.com/blog/2014/ ... ck-comment
Kudos to them for reacting to community feedback and being honest. I still would like to know what TVs they tested to say that modern TVs have higher compatibility with 240p.

[ms06fz]

If you're looking to save money (or just buy something to use until you find a nice RGB monitor), you can get SNES S-Video cables for $6 shipped.

All the SNES S-Video cables I've bought for that kind of money have been complete garbage. No shielding. By the time the signal gets out the other side, it's pretty much composite.

Is there some reliable source for decent SNES S-Video cables at a decent price? 'cause as things stand, unless the cable is made by Nintendo, Hori, or (presumably) Monster, I expect it to be trash. In my experience a decent-quality SNES S-vid cable is more like $40 unless I buy two composite cables (which are cheap) and make my own (about $20 each, once all the various source materials are factored in).

Personally, this kind of cable is something I've wanted. I'm not prepared to go for a good upscaler or an RGB CRT at this time. Going to component could be a nice little improvement over S-Vid, though. As long as the price is reasonable...

[Ed Oscuro]

Edit: Just saw this blog post: http://www.hdretrovision.com/blog/2014/ ... ck-comment
Kudos to them for reacting to community feedback and being honest. I still would like to know what TVs they tested to say that modern TVs have higher compatibility with 240p.

That is a step in the right direction, and it seems it made the pressure effort worthwhile.

I'm still going to wait for some more feedback on these, but even if the transcoder is a bit junk it would be better than nothing. It would save a fair bit of money buying a Kramer or one of the other big transcoder boxes (though I doubt the results will be as nice).

[RGB0b]

Is there some reliable source for decent SNES S-Video cables at a decent price?

Racketboy used to sell cheap ones that I never had any problems with, but I guess Nick closed his store. Sadly, all the ones I've seen from eBay are hit-or-miss: Some have been totally fine, others not so much.

Personally, this kind of cable is something I've wanted. I'm not prepared to go for a good upscaler or an RGB CRT at this time. Going to component could be a nice little improvement over S-Vid, though. As long as the price is reasonable...

I think it really depends on the set. If you have a nice Loewe or Proscan CRT, I imagine you'd notice a difference. Those sold for a lot of money new though. Most sub-$1000 (when new) consumer CRT TV's I've seen showed very little difference between a SNES 1-CHIP via S-Video and RGB (via RGB to component converter). I guess it could just be the sets I used.

I'd like to give these a try either way, just to see.

[creamygarlicdip]

If you're looking to save money (or just buy something to use until you find a nice RGB monitor), you can get SNES S-Video cables for $6 shipped.

All the SNES S-Video cables I've bought for that kind of money have been complete garbage. No shielding. By the time the signal gets out the other side, it's pretty much composite.

Is there some reliable source for decent SNES S-Video cables at a decent price? 'cause as things stand, unless the cable is made by Nintendo, Hori, or (presumably) Monster, I expect it to be trash. In my experience a decent-quality SNES S-vid cable is more like $40 unless I buy two composite cables (which are cheap) and make my own (about $20 each, once all the various source materials are factored in).

Personally, this kind of cable is something I've wanted. I'm not prepared to go for a good upscaler or an RGB CRT at this time. Going to component could be a nice little improvement over S-Vid, though. As long as the price is reasonable...

snes/n64/gamecube s-video cables are all compatible with each other. so a good gamecube s-video cable from ebay would work for the snes.

[BuckoA51]

I think they're biting off more than they can chew if they really expect to produce their own one-size fits all linedoubler.

[ms06fz]

All the SNES S-Video cables I've bought for that kind of money have been complete garbage. No shielding. By the time the signal gets out the other side, it's pretty much composite.

Is there some reliable source for decent SNES S-Video cables at a decent price?

snes/n64/gamecube s-video cables are all compatible with each other. so a good gamecube s-video cable from ebay would work for the snes.

Well that's the trick isn't it? Getting a "good" gamecube, N64, or SNES S-vid cable, as opposed to some cheap unshielded crap. Even Gamecube is old enough at this point that the official Nintendo cables are no longer particularly common in the sea of third-party junk.

A real SHVC-009 cable seems to go for around $40. A bit steep considering I'm only really paying for Nintendo's proprietary connector. (Good-quality standard S-video cables and RCA audio cables can be had for under $5)

I've wasted enough money on crappy Nintendo S-vid cables at this point that I don't trust the ones I see online unless they're official Nintendo, or one of the few decent third-party brands.

[Pasky]

I think they're biting off more than they can chew if they really expect to produce their own one-size fits all linedoubler.

Yup. Gonna take a very fast ADC and dac, and a fpga or CPLD which will make the cost unfeasible. They'll probably go with some off the shelf one and throw it in some cable box like that silly dreamcast cable prototype they picture or they're just blowing smoke to get more kickstarter hype.

[DarkAries]

Very few capture cards will accept a 240P input. None of the USB external devices will that I am aware of.

The BA6592F and it's variant (forgot the name) have pretty poor color transcoding. You get very weak yellows and everything tends to be more purple.

Actually a Live Gamer Portable can handle 240p over component. It's a recent patch and I forget if it's still on their site since it was causing some issues for a few people, but there do exist USB cards that can handle 240p component. Now it being usable with their Stream Engine so you can use it in anything besides XSplit or RecCentral is a different matter entirely.

[blizzz]

They have launched their Kickstarter: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/hd ... ent-cables

For $35 you get one of their (not shielded) cables. They are very clear about what the cables do and that there might be compatibility problems on HDTVs.

[Ed Oscuro]

They asked me to write them back - well, I have put it off while I mulled this over.

Given this product, their name and their "into the HD era" tagline make about as much sense as the "Permanent Paints" company selling paint that washes off in the rain. If I have an old AM radio, can I plausibly say that I've "brought it into the HD era" by just putting it in the corner and not trashing it? The tagline still implies something is happening that is not, which is unfortunate.

And there's the shirt with ol' Mario getting the HD makeover, which is again completely misleading.

About the cables themselves, I'm more worried about the quality of the chip inside. I don't think regular component cables need especially much shielding, so what they are saying is mysterious. It's probably a question more of where they fall on this graph.

From their FAQ:

Don't compatibility issues exist between 240p/288p signals and the component video inputs of certain TVs?

Indeed, that is true. The input stages in some TVs and display devices were not properly designed and do not accept 240p/288p timing signals over the component video connection. However, based on new trends in how TVs are designed, we believe that this problem is becoming increasingly rare with newer sets.

[antron]

just would like to point out this post on page 106 of the NESRGB thread:
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p1039121

I was browsing around the net tonight when I stumbled across a neat web site and a cool idea for the NESRGB modding scene.

Imagine you have Nintendo multiAV port and an extra button/switch. The switch selects between RGB out and component out. This can be done using the tiny PCB that can be purchased here: http://www.tg16pcemods.com/.

Comments?

You'd be disappointed by the performance of that thing. Why do people still build crappy transistor based circuits when high speed opamps are readily available?

Better to wait for this one. Good performance, no adjustments. I've send them to a few people for testing already.

[Ed Oscuro]

So, is tim commenting on this design? Something similar? Interesting how it even has a "keychain" hole on it.

[RGB32E]

So, is tim commenting on this design? Something similar? Interesting how it even has a "keychain" hole on it.

The hole matches the hole on the NESRGB12 revision boards over the RGB encoder. The R-C add-on can be installed with headers over the RGB encoder. I think this has already been covered in the NESRGB thread. Works really well for generating the chroma signals to use with luma for component output. As long as Tim releases the R-C for the NESRGB, there will be little reason to use a different solution for component output from a NESRGB system.