Fudoh's ode to old display technology

[Ed Oscuro]

34" Sony BVM:

What's the model number on this, if I might ask? That's inches, 4:3 by any chance?

[philexile]

Sorry, its actually 32 inches and its 16:9. The model number is Sony BVM-D32E1WU. Its pretty amazing. I highly recommend it to anyone that can manage to get one that is in good shape.

[Ed Oscuro]

I've been playing around (finally!) with essentially the same setup - but a very different monitor. SNES mini and games, but on both of my PVM-20L2MD-STs.

Pictures can be deceptive, but the images I get on these monitors look basically the same as phil's BVM-D32 shots. I have not found any option to disable the comb filter for composite, but I wouldn't want to - I've only seen line-crawling artifacts only a couple of times, with diagonal lines scrolling across the screen (in Pac-Man 2's attract mode, I think). The rest of the time things are golden. I've had a rather unusual setup of games to test though - Super Empire Strikes Back (finally got it working), Pitfall: The Mayan Adventure, Pac-Man 2 again, Pilotwings, Wild Guns. None of these is exactly like a typical scroller, and the scrolling games tend to have some stuff going on (Pac-Man 2's environments are often lower-contrast, though detailed; Super ESB has effects and other stuff happening; Pitfall has a kind of dark atmosphere and has a lot of up-and-down and less side-by-side movement).

Really, having moved from a SNES serial # UN29something to the mini, there's exceptionally little video degredation. Every pixel is perfectly defined. I'll have to compare some more, but I am actually totally happy with the mini in composite...even though I know that the mini is more or less an official clone system with a number of subtle differences, I'm playing in mono until I find my RCA to mini-stereo y-cable, and I'm playing in composite. But really I don't see any reason to care.

I'll have a look at Genesis (also Mega Drive 1 with Splatterhouse 2) sometime, which should be a tougher test. I think NES and A/V Famicom will look pretty good too, or so I hope.

Speaking of things - on one of my units there's a little mark (actually a couple marks, though the smaller one is quite small) and appear brownish when I shine a light into the monitor. Not sure if coatings are damaged, or if the glass itself is chipped. I'm not going to go crazy about it - when playing a number of games I only rarely could even see it, and sitting closer to head-on makes it harder to see than if looking from somewhat above. I never spotted the mark when playing Pilotwings, which is pretty incredible considering that game has lots of solid color fields.

The only other thing that has me scratching my head, and I wish I could look at an image of the monitors in use where I picked them up, is that the right side of the SNES image on both monitors very gently slopes inwards - about a pixel width. It's not enough to distract from gameplay and it's by far within the typical 5% tolerances for curvature one finds even in precision made lenses, but it does puzzle me. I'm wondering if this is something about the mini, or the power being used here, or just something that's standard. Think I spotted it with the regular SNES via RGB also.

In short, things are pretty good!

[LEGENOARYNINLIA]

In short, things are pretty good!

Indeed. A good quality composite or S-video signal from a "retro" console combined with a (non-consumer) quality tube with a great comb filter = amazing results.

[cicada88]

I am picking up 2 PVM monitors locally, and while I plan to go RGB eventually, the main source I have to test is an AV Famicom.

For people in the US, is there a store that will have RCA to BNC connectors locally. Radio Shack maybe? I want to test these out today!

[andy251203]

Radio Shack should have them but they will charge an arm and a leg. I would just buy some off of ebay and choose the seller that's closest to you.

[bobrocks95]

Yeah, RadioShack charges like $3 or $4 a connector. Way too much for something so simple.

EDIT: $5... http://www.radioshack.com/product/index ... Id=2104082

[Zets13]

Dunno where you live, but Fry's Electronics should have some. From their website looks like they might be about $2 each if buying individually.

[MushiMaster]

The BVM's 240p picture is much closer to a digital LCD display with emulated scanlines than it is to classic CRT. I
- power consumption (~250W at medium contrast setting)

Hello

I took this quote from the original post, i currently have a consumer grade sony trinitron but after hearing about sony bvm's and pvm's I have been wanting to upgrade, however this post kind of worries me as my games imo look terrible on my LCD even with emulated scanlines does this mean a bvm is not for me?

[BazookaBen]

I am picking up 2 PVM monitors locally, and while I plan to go RGB eventually, the main source I have to test is an AV Famicom.

For people in the US, is there a store that will have RCA to BNC connectors locally. Radio Shack maybe? I want to test these out today!

Just so you know, not all RCA>BNC connectors are very high quality. The first set I bought were very finnicky, and wouldn't maintain the connection unless you held the cables at a certain angle. So if you buy online, buying the cheapest might be a little bit of a gamble. Then again, the Radio Shack connectors are stupid expensive.

So maybe try Fry's.

[Fudoh]

BVM <> LCD/XRGB comparison: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 76#p881876

That's exactly what I was refering to, nothing more, nothing less.

[cicada88]

I paid the convenience tax. It ended up actually being like $8 from Radio Shack....ugh

[BazookaBen]

I paid the convenience tax. It ended up actually being like $8 from Radio Shack....ugh

Well, they're probably better quality than the 10 I got from Hong Kong for $5

[Yamato]

The BVM's 240p picture is much closer to a digital LCD display with emulated scanlines than it is to classic CRT.

i currently have a consumer grade sony trinitron but after hearing about sony bvm's and pvm's I have been wanting to upgrade, however this post kind of worries me as my games imo look terrible on my LCD even with emulated scanlines does this mean a bvm is not for me?

In general, it seems to be as sometimes people have to mind that they are watching XRGB LCD - BVM comparison shots on a PC display, which should be a LCD display in most cases. This influences how the picture looks to one's eyes, obviously.

From an objective point of view, the BVM 240p picture is indeed very close to a digital LCD display with emulated scanlines. You can see it on those pictures Fudoh referred to. But in reality it is still not the same. A comparison shot that you study on a LCD display just can not resemble what a CRT picture looks in reality. Of course it gives you a good idea of the excellent BVM quality. But comparing them in reality would still be different, of course.

As I stated earlier this year in this topic the BVM picture looks extremely better than my Sony consumer Trinitron from around 1998. The BVM offers by far the best CRT picture quality I have ever seen. It is simply perfect to my eyes. But when I say "perfect" I do not mean it in an emulation alike "too perfect" way.

With emulators the big and razor sharp pixels look so extremely well defined that it ruins the overall appeal to a lot of retro gamers. Same can (!) happen to some people when playing with the Framemeister on a huge LCD. Although, the Framemeister-LCD-combo still looks much more appealing when comparing it to an emulator from my point of view. It looks more organic and like the real thing. I can't describe it any better.
More input lag can be another aspect if you're sensitive to it.

With the BVM on the other hand, the 240p picture is just as perfect as a CRT picture can be to my eyes. It is still pure CRT goodness by all means (phosphors, real hardware scanlines which actually depend on the brightness level, the bright and vivid colors and so on and so on...). There is something to the picture that no LCD with emulated scanlines could replace for me up to this day.

That's why I prefer a BVM instead of my Framemeister for retro gaming up to this day.

For me there was no reason to keep my consumer Trinitron for gaming in my setup. It's not that it is bad, but the BVM just has the better picture, better colors etc. The only reason would have been the bigger picture size of it (29 inch compared to a 20 inch BVM).

Cheers
Yamato

[Xyga]

There is something to the picture that no LCD with emulated scanlines could replace for me up to this day.

Why yes, it's the variable luminosity/intensity that goes with the colors and shapes each dot.
There's no way to simulate this on a flat panel unless a very high resolution in conjunction with some kind of dynamic hardware + software formula is used.
Something that has yet to be invented.

And the several inferior properties of LCD flat panels still play a role; response time, colors, contrast, black depth, etc.
Some LCDs match the performance of CRTs in some areas, but never all areas.
Plasma was the closest but has been discontinued.
Now we have to wait for something else, better than LCD, like OLED or whatever will take the lead in the future.

PS: LCDs can be pretty awesome with some work, but I guess it's considered too much effort for the larger consumer market.
I don't seriously believe anything like in the article below will become mainstream and affordable, even if it's LCD;
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-lcd-f ... uhdtv.html

[Ed Oscuro]

Color bleeding of subpixels? I don't know that anybody attempted this, but it doesn't seem too difficult. With the standard 1080p screen there is already probably enough resolution to get that look, though at this stage there's little likelihood that there will be any big attempt to commercialize this. Running a filter is slow and we're definitely still in the era where just dealing with fast but appropriate basic scaling is still an issue.

I do notice some slight color fringing on some text on my PVM - it looks right, and not off, even though technically it's a flaw in picture reproduction. It isn't often too notable though.

Something else that definitely contributes to the CRT look is phosphor persistence, especially if you run alternating-line interlacing. Why anybody would want to bring this back is beyond me, but it's safe to say that pixel response times can improve.

[Xyga]

Well there are the so-called 'NTSC' filters simulating bleeding... some people love this.

[jedman]

Ive tried connecting my laptop to my BVM, It was working fine under multiple displays but I couldnt get any lower than 1080i So I switched to just the BVM display and set it down to 480p, But now I dont get any picture on either screen and don't know how to set it back to what it was before.

Anyone know how I could do this?

Im using nvidia control panel to change the resolutions

[jedman]

Latest addition, a BVM-A20F1U. So far the only thing I've connected to it has been a PS3.

What adaptor did you use to go from HDMI to HD-SDI? I just got a converter that works well but forgot to consider how I was going to get the audio out of the HDMI signal....

This is the converter I have

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/111302984378? ... EBIDX%3AIT

[Fudoh]

how I was going to get the audio out of the HDMI signal....

You shouldn't if you don't have to. Your source might have a SPDIF output on its own that you can use. And if you require HD audio (which only HDMI carries) you can use a splitter to get HDMI audio to your amp.

[jedman]

Ok cool, thanks.

Any idea on how to get the display back through my laptop? I think the issue is I chose to set the resolution to 480p, and my laptop doesn't support it so now nothing comes through, But I can't change the setting as the screen is set on single display through the BVM but I can't see anything to change it.

I was thinking of trying soft 15 khz because I want to be able to use MAME and other emulators in the correct resolution on the BVM, have you any experience with this?

[Ed Oscuro]

Look into booting in safe mode. i.e., http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/wind ... -safe-mode

Test out your custom resolution as a second screen next time!

[kamiboy]

What adaptor did you use to go from HDMI to HD-SDI? I just got a converter that works well but forgot to consider how I was going to get the audio out of the HDMI signal....

This is the converter I have

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/111302984378? ... EBIDX%3AIT

Why bother with SDI? I have a component cable for the PS2/3, I just use that for the video while audio runs from HDMI to another device.

[Kaminari]

Hey guys. First of all, thank you all for the knowledge you have posted and shared with the community.

I recently purchased a BVM-20F1U. I have no issues with it except one. Whether the source is 240p (Mega Drive with RGB cable to RGB-to-BNC cable) or 480i (DVD player with component cables and BNC adapter plugs), the monitor has this almost constant up-down "jumping." This isn't like normal CRT jitter; the picture will jump up and down irregularly by about .5mm. For example, it'll do it for a few seconds, then stop for a second, then do it again. This is typically how it goes, but there's no set pattern as far as the length of time is concerned. The jumping or stillness can sometimes be longer or shorter than this.

Also, when the jumping occurs there's this change in color as well -- it's like a very, very subtle "blinking." The picture remains on screen, but gets ever so darker for a split second (I can't emphasize enough how subtle it is, but it is definitely happening). I've tried different outlets and different rooms in the house to no avail. Any ideas what this could be?

[cruzlink2]

I just picked up a Sony BVM-20E1E for around 270 US including the remote control unit and a SDI card in addition to the analog RGB/Component card. Got a quick question if you guys don't mind answering it. The control unit did not include a memory card, from some google searching I managed to gather it's a pcmcia memory card, now the original sony card seems very hard to find. Anyway I could just use a normal pcmcia memory card? Or is this unit only capable of using the sony card? Thank you for any replies in advance guys.

[Shining]

Sorry for asking these question, but i'm bidding on a PVM-20L4 and do not have the time to search for answers. In order to hook up consoles with RGB scart one would need a RGB scart to BNC adapter? And in worst case scenario one would need a sync strike or similar device? Anything else to look out for or should be included when buying this monitor? Is 215 € a good deal?

[Xan]

Yes you need that adapter, it does accept Composite video as sync according to people on here, and 215€ sounds a bit steep for that monitor, personally, unless it's in absolutely mint/nearly unused condition.

[Shining]

Thanks! According to the seller it's barely used. These monitors are kind of hard to come by in Sweden, but i'll give it some more thought before bidding any higher.

[kamiboy]

Hey guys. First of all, thank you all for the knowledge you have posted and shared with the community.

I recently purchased a BVM-20F1U. I have no issues with it except one. Whether the source is 240p (Mega Drive with RGB cable to RGB-to-BNC cable) or 480i (DVD player with component cables and BNC adapter plugs), the monitor has this almost constant up-down "jumping." This isn't like normal CRT jitter; the picture will jump up and down irregularly by about .5mm. For example, it'll do it for a few seconds, then stop for a second, then do it again. This is typically how it goes, but there's no set pattern as far as the length of time is concerned. The jumping or stillness can sometimes be longer or shorter than this.

Also, when the jumping occurs there's this change in color as well -- it's like a very, very subtle "blinking." The picture remains on screen, but gets ever so darker for a split second (I can't emphasize enough how subtle it is, but it is definitely happening). I've tried different outlets and different rooms in the house to no avail. Any ideas what this could be?

Sounds like some component inside your monitor is on its way out. Could be some capacitors. If you are lucky it is isolated to the input board that you can just swap for another.

[jedman]

It's starting to sound more like burn-in, perhaps of a specific phosphor combination.

Anything that can be done to fix this?