Potential new monitor upgrade?

[Spyke]

Hi all.

At the moment I'm using a no-name brand 19" LCD TV as my console monitor. I play everything on it: Saturn, MD, 360, PS2 and PS1 using an assortment of component and scart cables, running through a splitter into a SLG-in-a-box setup for scanline generation. It works and plays well, looks ok.

But I'm thinking of upgrading slightly.

I know that an old-skool CRT is the holy grail, but it would be hard for me to fit in and for TATE-ing. Can you tell me if the JVC DT-V24G1 would be a good quality upgrade for my current setup? I know it would be slightly bigger and even second-hand costs more than my current TV did new, and has a slew of input options - but will it give a superior image in any way?

http://jvcpro.eu/product/110/dt-v24g1-a ... d-monitor/

Cheers, Ant

[Fudoh]

What made you look at this monitor in particular ?

[Spyke]

Well I watched some vids of really good CRT's on Youtube, then searched in ebay and found that there weren't many of them around. Also, very heavy and generally not being shipped. So I broadened my search to "broadcast moniter" and this was one which is within my price reach and is shippable.

Hence my enquiry. I went to the JVC page and looked it over and it "looks" good - but I'm really not an expert.

Ant

[Fudoh]

how much is it ?

You can't expect any good analogue handling from a set like this, so you still need up upscaler (yours or a better one). It's also a bit dated and I would be surprised if it had low input lag. In the 24" market, something like a Dell U2414 along with a Framemeister is the optimum.

[Spyke]

£130, whis counts as "pretty affordable" for me just now.

Thanks for the info though.

What are the prime requisites I should be looking for then?
Low input lag, and what else? I've grown "comfortable" with the SLG-in-a-box so would like to be able to stick with that if possible.

Ant

[Fudoh]

Low input lag and an IPS or VA panel. Maybe a rotable stand if you like to tate.

[Ed Oscuro]

I wouldn't risk buying an old broadcast LCD monitor - I have seen some like it on eBay - repairability is as least as bad as many tube sets, and color accuracy might be on its way out after heavy use in a production environment. So might the CCFL backlight tube - I understand these can be repairable, but it might be difficult and might involve getting into some areas you typically want to leave alone. I also noticed that some of these have fans (multiple) on the back, which might be good for production but annoying for use (I don't know from experience).

It's an IPS panel, which I'm guessing probably performs roughly similar to my Planar PX2611w (which is also an IPS of roughly the same vintage) - quite good for gaming but there is some pixel response related blur. I'm completely used to it, though. I actually don't remember if the blur is worse than the TN panel I switched from.

That monitor does have some interesting features: IPS and claimed sub-frame input lag (which isn't best-of-class anymore, but quite good for the time period, and still respectable, if it's true; response time at 5ms GTG is probably not really great, though for the panel tech it still is a respectable result - just not for very fast motion-based gaming (Sonic The Hedgehog, FPSes - third person games and the like should be pretty decent though), and the waveform monitor might be fun to play around with. I wouldn't mind playing around with one, but I wouldn't make a substantial investment sight unseen. And even if I could, there's the issue of "how worn out is this?"

For modern PC monitor suggestions, you could take a look at what's being discussed on the [H]ardforum, though there are some strong personalities there and I don't know how much hands-on experience people have to back it up.

My impression of the market currently is that for your 130 GBP it is difficult to do better (assuming, of course, that the 130 GBP monitor actually will work for more than a couple months after you get it), and it is going to be tough finding a brand-new monitor with those specs for the price. But it might be doable, and newer tech is slowly bringing some really nifty new monitors and TVs into the market. You will find the best prices from the newcomers out of China and Korea, but these typically don't have the panel quality assurances that some professional and even gaming monitor makers can offer. If you don't notice dead or stuck pixels, it's probably no big deal. If you do, it's another thing to worry about; returns on those monitors basically don't happen without spending yet more money, if indeed they can be made.

Bottom line is that you still have to spend money to get quality, and if your budget is 130 GBP it's going to be a bit tough. Depending on your tolerance for pixel trails and blur, you might be able to stomach that broadcast monitor (or something of its vintage), but a lot is likely riding on how worn out it is. My own monitor from about the same time (and another even older one) is going strong even with very nearly daily usage, but I've always kept the backlight at very low levels.

[Xyga]

Some recent threads;

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=51254

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=51641

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=51695

[lettuce]

Sorry to hijack the thread but what's the best 4:3 LCD 17" or 19" monitor to get for Mame (good viewing angles, blacks, response time, no smearing etc) now Raiden 2 and DX are playable. am think of building a small Bartop cab, is there any that do low refresh rates over analog VGA input?

[Xyga]

17" are all crappy TN, and 19" are 5:4 ratio, also crappy TN.
And I don't know what you mean by low refresh rates through VGA but if you mean 15KHz then the answer is no, you'll always need a linedoubler/upscaler.
There are a few 21" real 4:3 with IPS or VA panel around, but all very expensive and never reviewed.

EDIT; well there are some decent 5:4 if you don't mind the ratio, it should be okay if it's for Mame anyway, here's an example of what to look for:
http://www.idealo.co.uk/cat/3832F471055 ... y=minPrice

[lettuce]

Thanks, The HP LP2065 can do the following refresh rates....

Horizontal frequency: 30-94 kHz (VGA), 30-92 kHz (DVI)
Vertical frequency: 48-85 Hz (VGA), 30-92 kHz (DVI)

I wonder if the NEC Sync Masters can do refresh rates as low as 30khz

[Xyga]

Oh that... personally I tend not to trust the advertised figures too much, especially when they don't confirm the resolutions used to obtain those.
I don't mean specs sheets are all 100% full of crap but rather incomplete, they tell you the extremities but not exactly how they got here, so I don't put my money on what I read in those, too many bad surprises in the past...

[Spyke]

Great information in your replies, and in the other threads linked.

The JVC is no more - it has already sold to someone else anyway.

All of this has revealed to me that my screen is a TN panel, which explains a niggle I have with it - when TATEd I find the screen "darkens" very quickly if I move my eye position. This is obviously explained by it being a TN panel. QED!

I have my eye on a Dell u2410f now in reconditioned (3 month guarantee) condition. It's an IPS panel and gets some good reviews. At 24" and 16:10 I'm guessing it would be a good general screen, and would definitely be better than my current when in TATE format...

Ant

[Ed Oscuro]

IPS panels should be just fine for most shmups. They'll likely exhibit blurring when playing a very fast action scrolling game fullscreen, like Sonic the Hedgehog, but a Raiden game? No problem.

That Dell has very good input lag http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/con ... #input_lag
Of course the "actual" input lag is a composite figure - input lag + pixel response time - but I believe their figure includes that. This is a very respectable result.

I personally don't like losing the few inches of screen real estate for 27" but some of the best gaming monitors available are made in this size. I don't think the Dell is the best IPS gaming monitor, but it sounds like the price is right.

@ Lettuce: Those figures might include rates that the panel's scaler accepts, and who knows what the performance is like on them.

[Xyga]

Yeah that Dell was the reference a few years back but now it's kind of outdated, the BenQ BL2411PT has superior coating, better overdrive, lower input lag, etc. But of course it is more expensive.

Keep an eye on the Dell U2415 review on tftcentral, they will publish it in a few days I believe.
It's expected to become the new 16:10 reference (and even more expensive of course ^^)

One thing about 16:10 monitors though, the aspect controls give migraines to a lot of users who can't find a way to display proper letterboxed 16:9 content from external devices (consoles, BR players).
It's actually supposed to be possible on several models, but the way it works is kind of obscure.

@Ed: In my eyes today even the AMVA+ panels are fast enough for shmups, the good RTC introduced by BenQ in 2012 was a game changer. And current IPS/PLS are just perfect for anything but FPS games. 8-10ms average real pixel response times are now common on those, and that's really fast.

[Fudoh]

Very much looking forward to the U2415.

If you happen to find a review that actually tells something about it's AR handling with different inputs resolutions, please let us know here.

[Ed Oscuro]

One thing about 16:10 monitors though, the aspect controls give migraines to a lot of users who can't find a way to display proper letterboxed 16:9 content from external devices (consoles, BR players).
It's actually supposed to be possible on several models, but the way it works is kind of obscure.

@Ed: In my eyes today even the AMVA+ panels are fast enough for shmups, the good RTC introduced by BenQ in 2012 was a game changer. And current IPS/PLS are just perfect for anything but FPS games. 8-10ms average real pixel response times are now common on those, and that's really fast.

Yeah, my Planar doesn't work well with 1080p. It's been a while since I tried it - you get an image (fullscreen as I recall, which is wrong) but there is something odd about it (besides being fullscreen). It's a known problem for apparently all revisions.

About IPS - my own monitor is a roughly 2009 design and has 5ms claimed pixel response time. I actually have no problems using it for FPSes - only things that are problematic are gray handling (bands) and tearing, and occasional pixel response problems, like mouse cursor trails, and of course 60Hz refresh really isn't to my liking either.

The only games I know of that really falls down with it, and this is probably still true of new games, are the Sonic The Hedgehog titles. They are a nasty blurry mess when you're scrolling the screen. But most everything else works just fine.

Personally, I am hoping for something new in the 27" range. 32" TV panel production is dropping off as manufacturers move to larger sizes, and while there are lots of monitors in this size, I'm not sure if they are dependent on that panel size. I'm hoping for something in at least 16:10 aspect as a replacement for my own set, and moving to 24" 16:9 will feel pretty cramped. That being said, I did use a 4:3 in 17" for years without complaint.

[Xyga]

Very much looking forward to the U2415.

If you happen to find a review that actually tells something about it's AR handling with different inputs resolutions, please let us know here.

A tftcentral tweet says it's got settings for 4:3 and 5:4, no 16:9 nor 1:1
Ouch.
tftcentral usually only try one lower resolution and have a much too quick look at the quality of interpolation.
I have better hopes with prad.de but it's not on their schedule (yet?)
Regarding performance and quality another tweet says it's like a 16:10 version of the U2414H, which wouldn't be a bad thing if it's true.

EDIT: one question; would the vp30/vp50pro be able to support the full 1920x1200 area ? I know both can handle 1600x1200 easily but I haven't had the opportunity to try higher yet.

About IPS - my own monitor is a roughly 2009 design and has 5ms claimed pixel response time. I actually have no problems using it for FPSes - only things that are problematic are gray handling (bands) and tearing, and occasional pixel response problems, like mouse cursor trails, and of course 60Hz refresh really isn't to my liking either.

I think common IPSes found today are more well-rounded, 6bit+FRC with good dithering, much better balanced RTC free of overshoot. Have a look at the test results from the Dell P2414H & U2414H reviews, as well as Samsung S27D390H & S27D590P's.
Even two years ago it wasn't easy to find such responsive IPSes, and keep in mind they no longer use PWM, which actually makes a difference in perception of motion for many people.

Personally, I am hoping for something new in the 27" range. 32"...

If the current brand name 1440p IPSes and VA in 27" and 32" sizes didn't all have at least 20ms of input lag, I would be happy.
I just keep my fingers crossed for better stuff in 2015...

[lettuce]

IPS panels should be just fine for most shmups. They'll likely exhibit blurring when playing a very fast action scrolling game fullscreen, like Sonic the Hedgehog, but a Raiden game? No problem.

That Dell has very good input lag http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/con ... #input_lag
Of course the "actual" input lag is a composite figure - input lag + pixel response time - but I believe their figure includes that. This is a very respectable result.

I personally don't like losing the few inches of screen real estate for 27" but some of the best gaming monitors available are made in this size. I don't think the Dell is the best IPS gaming monitor, but it sounds like the price is right.

@ Lettuce: Those figures might include rates that the panel's scaler accepts, and who knows what the performance is like on them.

Yeah true, i think in the HP case those figure could be true.

A member over on the BYOAC forums tested it with Groovymame and Mortal Kombat on the title screen where you have the characters avatars vertically scrolling on each side of the screen. If the refresh rate isnt correct (like if its 60hz) then the scrolling is jerky but he was report that it was super smooth so the monitor was set at the correct refresh 54hz

[Zapf]

Yeah, I got one of those hp monitors for a friends cab, and can confirm weird refresh rates working w/ groovymame. Its can even handle low-ass resolutions too (tried the groovymame linux boot cd at one point and loaded up one of the free roms), but I recommend going for native panel resolution + custom refresh rates

[Fudoh]

EDIT: one question; would the vp30/vp50pro be able to support the full 1920x1200 area ? I know both can handle 1600x1200 easily but I haven't had the opportunity to try higher yet.

Iirc not the VP30, but the 50Pro should. You have to create a custom timing though.

[Xyga]

Well bad news, I got confirmation about the lack of 16:9 support on the U2415;

no, there is no 16:9 hardware aspect ratio control, only options for 16:10 (Wide), 5:4 and 4:3. you could always just use the graphics card to do the scaling, if you're using a PC. obv not a help for external devices though

I can't even start to express ho stupid this is, though not really a surprise coming from Dell, as even on their 16:9 monitors they have an option for '16:9'. Duh.
But no support for the most common video aspect on the market ? Seriously ?

[Ed Oscuro]

Hmm, Prad has given the Dell U2713 a strange review:
http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/review/2 ... l#Response
Strong overshoot to keep panel response time low, but 30ms of lag. Strange.

[Xyga]

It's not really strange since it is an old model from when they didn't know how to balance their stuff yet.
The 'S' series from that time was flawed too, but they have learned since then and made the P2414H/U2414H and glossy S2415H/S2715H which are excellent monitors.
All that's missing to complete the renewal of their popular ranges are the reviews of the U2415 and U2715H.

The only real problem with Dell monitors now is the extremely poor quality control and unadvertised hardware revisions.
I think it is better to wait several months before buying one of their new models, maybe even almost a year.

[K-2]

It just so happens that I recently put an order in for the Dell u2412m. My intent was to have something good and sharp for my jpn 360 and use it with a frameister and or XRGB-3. Will I be Ok with this monitor or should I have bought the u2414 instead?

[Fudoh]

16:10 monitors like the 2412 don't play this well with the Framemeister, since the Mini does not support 16:10 resolutions without odd letterboxing on all sides. And if you output a 16:9 res like 720p the 16:10 Dells will upscale the resolution to fullscreen, so your aspect ratio is a bit off...

[K-2]

Oh well, that's the one work is getting me. I guess it will be good for work things

I was kind of hopeful with the vga port that this might be a good fit for the 360 and SLG at least. I suppose the XRGB-3 will also fight with this thing?

[Xyga]

I haven't tried that since I lack such a monitor, but I wonder if setting the 360 to 1440x900 or 1680x1050, which are 16:10 aspect resolutions, would do it (?)

[Fudoh]

XRGB-3 is fine and so is anything that you run through a SLG, since you're using native 480p in 4:3 for both of these.

[Unseen]

16:10 monitors like the 2412 don't play this well with the Framemeister, since the Mini does not support 16:10 resolutions without odd letterboxing on all sides. And if you output a 16:9 res like 720p the 16:10 Dells will upscale the resolution to fullscreen, so your aspect ratio is a bit off...

What, Dell actually removed that feature? On my Dell U2410 there is a menu option called "Wide Mode" that can be changed between 1:1 (no scaling), Aspect (aspect-correct scaling) and Fill (aspect-ignoring scaling) and with that option set to Aspect, a 720p signal is correctly scaled with small black bars at the top and bottom.