Fudoh's ode to old display technology

[whitetornado]

Thanks for the response.

@ whitetornado:
http://www.broadcaststore.com/pdf/model ... manual.pdf

As a very rough guess, did you simply try the COLOR TEMP ADJ menu option (page 19 in this manual)?

I was originally looking for a "global" setting. I've been trying to approach the tv as a whole rather than on an individual input basis. The manual has helped a lot in understanding what everything means, but it doesn't do a very good job of explaining (granted i haven't read 100% yet) of the global/ individual channel settings.

If i had more technical know how with these monitors (outside of eight hours) i think putting together a website that walked the retro gamer through the complete set up of these BVM/ PVM type monitors would be great.

Something akin to this: http://www.cinemasource.com/articles/ca ... o_proj.pdf

Descriptions and recommendations for each setting and then for each console too. Kind of like Retro RGB on steroids, aimed specifically towards BVM/ PVM Monitors. I don't know if that would be beneficial in any way to anyone other than me though.

As for SMPTE color patterns...old Avia / Digital Video Essentials type DVD...However, somebody here recommended something free and better... For retro consoles, there's Artemio's test pattern suite.

I've done a lot of home theater install so I'm very familiar with Avia and video essentials. Can these just be spun up in a DVD player and used like normal? I was curious if the RCA to BNC connection would be a concern for degradation and/ or the quality of the dvd player would influence or degrade the reference image?

For overscan settings...probably not.

Because of my experience with consumer electronics i figured i would calibrate the set to a reference level and then it would just function like a standard consumer set, albeit with incredible clarity and color. I would probably keep the overscan on normal to prevent the digitized edges and all the jaggies that can pop up in those things out. I'm not sure if that is the correct approach. I don't plan on running anything (console generation wise) beyond the original playstation on the monitor. I would like to add a SEGA CD and a NEO GEO to the set up at sometime too. I'm trying to keep the content at 240p, the rest i'll hook up to my regular set.

I'm pretty sure just about any SCART splitter out there degrades image quality to some extent, so I wouldn't use them.

The Bandridge is really nice. I've noticed zero degradation from one to two feet away while I've been setting this up. I'm actually surprised by it. You always expect some sort of degradation in these types of things.

[jedman]

Hi I have a BVM-D20F1U,

I haven't noticed any issues with the whites, but I cant get the geometry totally straight on both sides either. The left hand side always bends in the middle slightly whereas the right side is totally straight, so i cant adjust the left without throwing out the right.

I Notice on mine that on 480p there is a slight shimmering/flicker interference type thing happening on bright whites. but I cant see this at all on lower resolutions. Wish I knew what was causing this as its otherwise pretty perfect.

[TheDrifter363]

Hey everyone,

I've been checking out some old CRTs, and I've heard good things about the sony bvm series. I was looking at this one specific monitor: a 16:9 hd like monitor.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SONY-BVM-D32E1W ... 3f3dbe4a8b

The Sony BVM-d32e1wu. I'd prefer the a series, but so far the d series is the only one available on ebay. You see the discoloration? Is there any way to get rid of that, or is it permanent. The unit has ~55000 hours. I was also thinking about using it as a pc monitor, since I've heard lcds are not that great compared to crts. Well when comparing picture quality. I think oleds and plasmas may surpass crts, but they don't make plasmas that small and the oled professional monitors are still very expensive. Not only that but they do not support 240p, at least I don't think.

Has anyone ever used a crt for pc gaming?

[Zets13]

The discoloration looks like it might need to just be degaussed, but if that were the only thing causing it youd think the seller would have at least tried that? He also says it has burn-in, which definitely cannot be fixed. His wording makes it sound like maybe he is mistakenly calling the color blotches burn-in, but who knows. It'd probably be a good idea to see it in person, and bring along a proper degaussing coil lol.

Oh, and a CRT for PC gaming? Haha, that would describe most anyone who used a PC in the early 2000s and before.

[MysticSynergy]

@whitetornado

I have the same monitor as you and also have been trying to align it properly and get it to display the proper picture / color.

Let's work together to get this beauty looking awesome just like in the screenshots you are talking about!

1.) First of all, have you noticed any "jittering" when displaying 240p content? I know it has been referenced a few posts before, but I haven't been able to detect what causes it. At first I thought the monitor needed to warm up and after about 30 minutes it "seemed" to be less noticeable. I don't really notice it when sitting a good distance away from the monitor, but it is still there. I don't know why but it only happens with my BVM and not with my PVM.

2.) Are you using any 75 ohm BNC resisitors? I have three that I currently use and it causes my BVM to become much more dim and washed out. From what I understand I want to be using these because...well I'm not quite sure. When I take them off, the screen becomes WAY brighter and the colors look more bright and stand out more, but the overload light on the monitor goes on when there are large amounts of white on the screen. Should I be using the resistors? I do have a extra Analog / Digital Board plugged into the back of the Sony BVM-20F1U and I wonder if that's why it is overloading. I really don't know much about it.

3.) I too have been trying to auto adjust the colors using a SMPTE color bar pattern, but to no avail. When I pull up the pattern on Artemis's 240p Suite and activate the auto color adjust, I get some weird error. I'm not sure what I am doing wrong, but when I did the auto adjust on my PVM20MDU it worked like a charm. I would love to get the colors correct. Currently the reds and greens are a bit off. I know it's not the tube as it has very low hours and looks great. I think it just needs some tweaks. When you go into the COLOR TEMP adj menu and go to manual, what are your R G B values? I think 1000 is default, but I wonder what each one should be turned to. I was thinking I could double the amount to make the colors "pop" but I'm not sure if that will really help the situation.

Let me know what you find out, perhaps we could compare notes about this amazing monitor. I can't wait to get it all adjusted properly, looking bright and crisp!!

[Traveller]

Hey guys. Pretty happy with how my PVM is set up now, it's looking good. Just have a small question if someone can answer it.

I notice in the bottom right area of the screen that there is some sort of slight distortion, it's like part of the image is getting squeezed a bit. It's mainly noticeable on scrolling levels, and mostly apparent on Sonic the Hedgehog as Green Hill zone has squares in the ground. As the image scrolls, the area in the corner looks like its being pinched together.

On the test pattern grid it all looks mostly straight. Am I right in assuming that this is just the way the screen is and it's not really something that can be adjusted?

It's not a big deal and I haven't been worrying about it much as its hard to see on 3D games. Just wondering though.

Thanks for the help. Reading the forums has helped me understand this stuff better.

[niall]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SONY-BVM-D32E1W ... 3f3dbe4a8b

You see the discoloration? Is there any way to get rid of that, or is it permanent.

You'll need to adjust the purity rings inside, that should sort out most or all of it. Read up on how to adjust Trinitron rings from any service manual (recognise the pair that you need by shape) and I'd give it a quick adjust on the spot before buying if possible. Definitely want to check it out in person for an hour if there's burn in.

[whitetornado]

1.) First of all, have you noticed any "jittering" when displaying 240p content? I know it has been referenced a few posts before, but I haven't been able to detect what causes it. At first I thought the monitor needed to warm up and after about 30 minutes it "seemed" to be less noticeable. I don't really notice it when sitting a good distance away from the monitor, but it is still there. I don't know why but it only happens with my BVM and not with my PVM.

All CRT monitors have some minimal jitter. With a 20" monitor you should probably be sitting back 4 feet or so, this should eliminate that. There was a simple equation for this type of stuff, but i can't remember. 2x the screen size or something like that is your optimal sitting distance. 1.5x for flat panels i think.

If the monitor has a "wave" or something of the sort that is interference. If there is no discoloration there probably isn't magnetics involved. Is your monitor in underscan mode by chance? Make sure it is in normal by pressing *shift* > *16:9.* Four presses will cycle you through these results: 4:3 over (normal) 4:3 under, 16:9 over, 16:9 under. Four presses will bring you back around to where you started.

2.) Are you using any 75 ohm BNC resisitors? I have three that I currently use and it causes my BVM to become much more dim and washed out. From what I understand I want to be using these because...well I'm not quite sure. When I take them off, the screen becomes WAY brighter and the colors look more bright and stand out more, but the overload light on the monitor goes on when there are large amounts of white on the screen. Should I be using the resistors? I do have a extra Analog / Digital Board plugged into the back of the Sony BVM-20F1U and I wonder if that's why it is overloading. I really don't know much about it.

I do have the resistors on. I have four however, with an additional one on the outgoing sync connection. They apparently keep signal from bleeding off. I'm not 100% from that, but i think that is the gist of it. One thing to keep in mind is that these are reference monitors, not consumer sets. They are designed to be accurate more so than bright and punchy. Much like a set of studio audio monitors won't get you punchy bass, but they will deliver precise and clear sound. Same principle.

I would stick with the resistors, they are designed to be on when the outgoing path is not utilized. I also have the digital board in mine, but since we aren't using that i don't think it has any impact on what we are doing. Each card should be isolated from the other.

3.) I too have been trying to auto adjust the colors using a SMPTE color bar pattern, but to no avail. When I pull up the pattern on Artemis's 240p Suite and activate the auto color adjust, I get some weird error. I'm not sure what I am doing wrong, but when I did the auto adjust on my PVM20MDU it worked like a charm. I would love to get the colors correct. Currently the reds and greens are a bit off. I know it's not the tube as it has very low hours and looks great. I think it just needs some tweaks. When you go into the COLOR TEMP adj menu and go to manual, what are your R G B values? I think 1000 is default, but I wonder what each one should be turned to. I was thinking I could double the amount to make the colors "pop" but I'm not sure if that will really help the situation.

I don't have Artemis's test suite, which is something i'm trying to remedy, but i'm not sure what a flash cart is nor where to get one. So, i'm kind of lost right now in that regard.

The auto set on the BVM-20f1u should only work with the probe. When you run the test pattern the probe would image the pattern shown on screen and automagically adjust the settings based on what it sees.

* I did find one problem. My "Format" under "input configuration" was set to "YUV" instead of "RGB" that fixed a lot of my issues.

[whitetornado]

All my whites are yellow now...

[jedman]

If the monitor has a "wave" or something of the sort that is interference. If there is no discoloration there probably isn't magnetics involved. Is your monitor in underscan mode by chance? Make sure it is in normal by pressing *shift* > *16:9.* Four presses will cycle you through these results: 4:3 over (normal) 4:3 under, 16:9 over, 16:9 under. Four presses will bring you back around to where you started.

This wave type thing that you describe sounds like wehat i can see on whites on 480p. Do you know what could be causing this? I had some scratches on my screen which i polished out with a drill and polishing pad, but im worried the vibration may have caused some magnetic interferance or made something loose inside.

[nyder]

If the monitor has a "wave" or something of the sort that is interference. If there is no discoloration there probably isn't magnetics involved. Is your monitor in underscan mode by chance? Make sure it is in normal by pressing *shift* > *16:9.* Four presses will cycle you through these results: 4:3 over (normal) 4:3 under, 16:9 over, 16:9 under. Four presses will bring you back around to where you started.

This wave type thing that you describe sounds like wehat i can see on whites on 480p. Do you know what could be causing this? I had some scratches on my screen which i polished out with a drill and polishing pad, but im worried the vibration may have caused some magnetic interferance or made something loose inside.

Not sure how relevant this is as this is with a PVM-20l5.
I was getting waves in 240p/RGB , very noticeable in the 240p test suite White Screen.

http://youtu.be/7L0WVdPlaw8?list=UUDr58 ... G1G1VXST3A

I ordered a BKM-129x analog expansion board,installed that and hooked up the same Scart to BNC connector to that instead of the onboard connectors and boom, perfect picture.

Not sure whats up with the onboard inputs, hope this helps you guys somehow.

Nyd

[jujukun]

Hi everyone,

I picked up a BVM-20F1E in great condition with the BKM10R control unit directly attached to the botton of the monitor and a bonus input board besides the stock input board. It has 70k hours and has been serviced many times between 2001 and 2008. All in all I'm really happy with my purchase.

My wish is to hook my Wii for 240p Virtual Console retrogaming through component and my consoles (SFC, FC, MD, PS2, DUO-R, N64...) via scart switch and BNC>Scart breakout cable.

For now, only my Wii is hooked to the monitor through component as I'm waiting for the BNC>scart breakout cable. I know how to use the Alignment settings however I'm struggling to save different settings through different channels.
Indeed, the alignment settings vary depending on the support played (Neo Geo VC, SFC VC, NES VC, MD VC, etc.). Let's say I set the right alignment settings for the Neo Geo VC games, those settings won't work for SFC VC games, so I need to realign stuff to make the picture "fit" on the screen. To prevent from changing every time the settings when I switch to another support, I am aware that I can save settings per channel, but I don't know how to do this. I tried many things via Input configuration menu (change "Preset" to "Channel"), select another channel before and after setting the right parameters, etc. But, I keep the previous settings every time whatever the channel selected.

My questions:
- Can we save different settings for each support played (VC Neo Geo, VC SFC, VC MD, etc.) even if it's outputted from one sole console (Wii)?
- If so, can you please give me the instructions to manage one different save per channel?

Thanks in advance!

[whitetornado]

Hello! Congratulations on getting one of these awesome monitors.

The first thing to do is take a look at the manual if you haven't already:

http://www.broadcaststore.com/pdf/model ... manual.pdf

You probably want to familiarize yourself with the entire manual, but i think page 37 and on may be of interest to you.

[Ed Oscuro]

As for SMPTE color patterns...old Avia / Digital Video Essentials type DVD...However, somebody here recommended something free and better... For retro consoles, there's Artemio's test pattern suite.

I've done a lot of home theater install so I'm very familiar with Avia and video essentials. Can these just be spun up in a DVD player and used like normal? I was curious if the RCA to BNC connection would be a concern for degradation and/ or the quality of the dvd player would influence or degrade the reference image?

Yes; I've used a PS2 to do this. I didn't use this method to try calibrating my PVM-20L5, but from what I did see video quality with RCA to BNC adapters (between i.e. the PS2 cables, or an Xbox High Definition AV) was fine.

[jujukun]

Hello! Congratulations on getting one of these awesome monitors.

The first thing to do is take a look at the manual if you haven't already:

http://www.broadcaststore.com/pdf/model ... manual.pdf

You probably want to familiarize yourself with the entire manual, but i think page 37 and on may be of interest to you.

Thanks for your input. I've already read the manual though.
Well, after reading again that thread from the start, I think that I found the solution to my issue. In one of his early posts, Fudoh said:

I think the inputs share the same geometry settings, but you have at least four geometry "slots" which you can use for different settings (4:3 over/underscan and 16:9 over/underscan). If you assign different inputs to different channels and use the different geometry slots for them, you should be good.

So I think that I need to tweak with the 4 geometry slots.

[Taiyaki]

What's the best way to adjust brightness (actually contrast) with the BVM's? I find the test patterns don't help and I thought I had it right until I played some PS2 horror titles and found crushed blacks and some loss of detail. When pushing the bright back up to 1000 I find contrast too high on other consoles. It's tough to find the right middle ground.

[Ed Oscuro]

I took an interesting trip to the western edge of Cleveland to pick up a couple of exceptional '04 built PVM-20L2-MD-ST monitors. This is "only" a 600 TVL set, and SNES looked just right through it - no glaringly sharp scanlines, but just right, and with a perfectly stable image and perfectly straight lines (even in underscan mode).

If anybody is around that general vicinity, Bill at GM Surplus Sales (give him a call since their address has changed) currently has a PVM-20L1 (composite only - will be good for unmodded NES) from about 2004, and a Jun/Jul 1997 PVM-1953q (I think). He was very accommodating and allowed me to comprehensively test the monitors - I could even have taken the back off one if I wanted to (I thought it might be necessary, but shining a flashlight inside showed me pristine interiors and I decided not to mess with them). Hurry though - we had a talk about various aspects of the business - how shipping tends to damage these things, and how they are starting to disappear from his surplus sales. This likely is the last call for CRT monitors. Going from the sticker on the side of one of these, the hospital had these serviced last year! Quite possibly the servicing company just booted it up, hit the underscan button once, and realized it had a pin sharp image. It's hard to say if they were used regularly; there's certainly some stuffs and a few minor dents on the chassis of both, but from what I can see they're clean and show no symptoms of high usage. Contrast is kind of low but that might be the game I tested with (SNES Pitfall) and also the color settings used. These are probably both ex-endoscopy monitors (one has a sticker on the side from Stryker, the large medical supply corporation).

So look up hospital surplus if you can - yesterday if possible, unless you have a special need like broadcast-quality resolution or color accuracy (but it's time to move to flat panels for that in many cases, anyways).

I think we ought to set up some Save the CRTs organization, getting people together with local sources - of course, anybody can search the web for local auctioneers and surplus sources. eBay just doesn't cut it in most cases, though it is easy to check. I lucked out with these, all the same.

What's the best way to adjust brightness (actually contrast) with the BVM's? I find the test patterns don't help and I thought I had it right until I played some PS2 horror titles and found crushed blacks and some loss of detail. When pushing the bright back up to 1000 I find contrast too high on other consoles. It's tough to find the right middle ground.

Sounds like a case of "every system is different." I'd be prepared to set anything independently. TBH, I'm not really sure what the purpose of playing 3D era 480i games that will look basically fine on a regular TV or even upscaled on a LCD is - I'd reserve the BVM for games that require less contrast adjustment, particularly if your set has been thrashed in a production environment.

Setting contrast too high is just going to hasten its demise.

[nyder]

Nice one saving those L2's.

I have a very minty l2, and though it has a soft image, its extremely reliable, and a solid performer, I get the feeling this thing will still be working when I stop haha.

If you want a versatile, reliable,display for retro games that doesn't have the extreme scanlines goin on the l2 is a good option.
Not only that, you can add a input card for additional component/rgb inputs.

Some games on ps2 look good on LCD, others look better than CRT, need to do more tests.

Nyd

[opt2not]

Got my Shinybow Matrix from philexile (great guy!) setup with my PVM's:


Sorry for the crappy iphone pic.
Here's a better one up close:


I wasn't planning on getting the Matrix, since i bought the Bandridge Scart switch and was going to try just splitting the video signal from the cables. But this is cleaner and more error-proof! If anyone is interested in my Bandridge Switcher I'll be selling it off since it's no longer needed. Just shoot me a PM.

[nyder]

Got my Shinybow Matrix from philexile (great guy!) setup with my PVM's:


I wasn't planning on getting the Matrix, since i bought the Bandridge Scart switch and was going to try just splitting the video signal from the cables. But this is cleaner and more error-proof! If anyone is interested in my Bandridge Switcher I'll be selling it off since it's no longer needed. Just shoot me a PM.

Looks cool bud, how about turning on the lights so we can see?

Which one is the Matrix?

I want your spare scart switch.

I can guess thats the 2030, but what model is that little PVM to the right?

Cheers,

Nyd

[opt2not]

Got my Shinybow Matrix from philexile (great guy!) setup with my PVM's:


I wasn't planning on getting the Matrix, since i bought the Bandridge Scart switch and was going to try just splitting the video signal from the cables. But this is cleaner and more error-proof! If anyone is interested in my Bandridge Switcher I'll be selling it off since it's no longer needed. Just shoot me a PM.

Looks cool bud, how about turning on the lights so we can see?

Which one is the Matrix?

I want your spare scart switch.

I can guess thats the 2030, but what model is that little PVM to the right?

Cheers,

Nyd

Thanks man.

here's a picture of the Shinybow Matrix from philexile's trade post ( I didn't snap a picture of it):


Yeah, re-capped PVM 2030 -- that was a 8hr chore for me and I still need to adjust the horizontal positioning, but the other one is a PVM 14n5u. It's a nice little 14"er that I got for cheap off CL a couple years ago. I don't think there were a lot of hours put on it...it's got no burn, image is bright and crisp. The picture quality is actually better than my 2030, which is why I was prompted to do a re-cap on it.

[nyder]

Got my Shinybow Matrix from philexile (great guy!) setup with my PVM's:


I wasn't planning on getting the Matrix, since i bought the Bandridge Scart switch and was going to try just splitting the video signal from the cables. But this is cleaner and more error-proof! If anyone is interested in my Bandridge Switcher I'll be selling it off since it's no longer needed. Just shoot me a PM.

Looks cool bud, how about turning on the lights so we can see?

Which one is the Matrix?

I want your spare scart switch.

I can guess thats the 2030, but what model is that little PVM to the right?

Cheers,

Nyd

Thanks man.

here's a picture of the Shinybow Matrix from philexile's trade post ( I didn't snap a picture of it):


Yeah, re-capped PVM 2030 -- that was a 8hr chore for me and I still need to adjust the horizontal positioning, but the other one is a PVM 14n5u. It's a nice little 14"er that I got for cheap off CL a couple years ago. I don't think there were a lot of hours put on it...it's got no burn, image is bright and crisp. The picture quality is actually better than my 2030, which is why I was prompted to do a re-cap on it.

That thing looks brilliant. your pics don't look so dark on my home computer, not sure why.
Pretty cool how you can have one scart switch for 2 displays.

Nyd

[stonedrum]

does anyone know how to find hour count on a pvm L5? I don't see it in the submenu and cant find a service manual

[kamiboy]

Only BVM's have hour counters.

[waiwainl]

maybe. According to MAME Futari is running at 240p straight. If you use the size settings in the Service menu you got a much wider range of adjustments compared to the standard menu. With a title like Futari it should be easy to get it right. Once the source/panel pixel mapping snaps in, the picture will be a lot sharper as well.

Is de PDP-V402 service menu reached via "Menu" + "Power On" i.e. the 'Integrator Mode' ?

I can't seem to set the correct settings. Which settings do I need to use for tuning? Because 'size' is not part of the options; only frequency/position (hor/ver), white balance and individual RGB high+low value settings.

[jedman]

Does anyone know how to connect a HDMI device to a BVM-D series?

[Fudoh]

Does anyone know how to connect a HDMI device to a BVM-D series?

either a HDFury (HDMI to component) or HDMI to HD-SDI. Both is limited to 720p and 1080i. You might want to use the HDFury if your source has HDCP, the latter if it doesn't.

[BazookaBen]

Is it possible for the level adjustment on the Extron RGB to damage a CRT? In other words, can it cause the amplification circuits in a monitor to push the tube too hard?

My Samsung 900IFT that I've been using to play 480p games recently went kaput. Before it stopped showing picture altogether, it was frequently making a popping sound with the picture going out of focus. Now all I can hear is a faint clicking from the back, like it's trying to engage the flyback.

Anyway, this happened around the same time I started using my Extron 201 Rxi to increase the output level on my 480p games, which were too dark on most of my PC monitors. Coincidence?

[ryu]

Maybe, maybe not.

The brighter the image, the more power is required by the tube which will wear out some parts much faster than usual. It shouldn't kill a tube on the spot though.

[philexile]

That thing looks brilliant. your pics don't look so dark on my home computer, not sure why.
Pretty cool how you can have one scart switch for 2 displays.

I'll actually be listing another Shinybow SCART matrix in the next day or so. I'm on a cleaning spree and came across my 6x2 matrix. It also includes the manual, box, etc.

PM me if you're interested, Nyder.