40" 4:3 Sony CRT tv with DVI input for mame project?

[Classicgamer]

Hi

I have some questions for people who use mame emulators with an old CRT tv. I am specifically interested in hearing if you got the "authentic" look right away or if you still needed HLSl or other image and resolution adjustments? I am also interested in how you connected the pc to the tv and any potential issues that should be careful to avoid when buying an old CRT tv for a mame project?

I was recently offered an old 40" Sony 4:3 CRT tv with a DVI input for very little money. I didnt think that these things even existed before I saw it. I thought that all of the CRT tv's that had HDMI or DVI inputs were the late model 16:9 versions, which are useless for classic gaming.

It looks perfect for classic gaming on paper. It is big, a high end model and would have been great for my laserdisc player in 1995 but I am skeptical of how good it wil be for games. In my experience, the higher the spec of the tv or monitor, the worse old games look. CRT VGA monitors used to make my Snes look blocky back in the day. I tried a high end 30" jvc CRT broadcasting monitor recently and games looked blocky, just like on modern LCD monitors because the image was too "good", "clear" or whatever the word is. Displays with too much detail don't hide the low res sins. By "sins", I mean jaggies of course....

I live in the US now where there was no scart sockets, so connections are limited to svideo or composite, normally. Few graphics cards have svideo out these days and very few CRT tv's ever had a VGA input.

I want a decent size screen and I definitely don't want a VGA computer monitor. I know some people swear by them, but they don't look that great for old games to me and they hardly ever look like the arcade monitors (I don't remember games ever looking blocky in the arcades).

A 4:3 CRT tv with DVI certainly makes connecting my pc more convenient but I am worried that I will end up with the same blocky "high res" result that I get on my 1080p LCD monitor which would defeat the purpose of buying such a monstrous device. Seriously, moving a baby elephant would be easier.

Does anyone here have any experience of using a DVI input on a CRT tv? If so, did games look authentic? By "authentic", I mean not blocky. I want it to look smooth like they did on my old tv. I don't need to see visible spaces between scanlines. These were only visible the old CRT screens if you stretched the image virtically anyway. Anyone who plays mame games now and played arcade games in the 80's and 90's will know what effect I am looking for....

Am I right in assuming that if I connect my pc through svideo to any 4:3 CRT tv, emulated games will then look just like they used to without needing to adjust settings and add emulated scanlines etc or will I still have problems which matching resolutions to the originals? I know CRT tv's don't have a fixed resolution but I need to select a resolution in mame and for my graphics card which might mean some scaling needs to take place before it can be displayed. 640x480 is currently the lowest resolution in the list, will an old 480i tv even be able to display an image or do I need to find a model with enough bandwidth to display a 480p image?

What is the best way (or a way that works) to connect my pc to a tv through an svideo input? My graphics card has DVI, VGA and display port. Will a VGA to svideo adapter be all that I need? What resolution will I need to sellect in my graphics card settings? Do I need to buy an old graphics card with an svideo out instead?

If I buy a CRT tv which has the bandwidth to display hd resolutions (like the 40" Sony) am I going to get the same problems as I have with LCD monitors? Does it depend on which connection I use? I.e. will it only look blocky if I used the DVI input etc?

I am having a lot of trouble trying to make emulated games look like they used to. It just isn't the same when they look all blocky and grainy. I have asked for help with HLSL on a different thread because any version of mame that I find with it, doesn't seem to work with any of my games. They want files that I don't have or know where to get etc.

If I have to resort to bringing a CRT into my house, I at least want to make sure that I will be able to get the results I expect using a modern PC so any advice would be appreciated.

I know that there are lots of places where this topic is discussed but there is also a lot of bad advice going around and I rarely read about the results that people got after buying a CRT tv for games. Maybe they are all happy playing games and they are not on forums looking for answers anymore?

[shaffowaffo]

Have you got a model number from the TV ? If it has DVI...I would personally buy an arcadeVGA card (or go the 15khz software and compatible vga card route) and just connect direct from VGA to DVI (small convertor required...they are ten a penny). This way you will get perfect resolutions for the TV, guaranteed connection and a proper 15KHZ output...

If it has a DVI input, then no need to try and send a Svideo signal to it and get a poor picture, use the VGA/DVI out on your card instead. Again test both...

I used to have an NECXM29 which had a vga input(from what I remember, it was a while ago) with that I just outputted direct from ArcadeVGA to VGA. Perfect scanlines and resolution...In some ways it was too good, but given the size of the monitor you are talking about, you wont want to be that close to see the scanlines as its just way too big to sit close to ?

ArcadeVGA>DVI Convertor>TV...preferred route for me, especially as its a out of the box easy solution with minimum wires etc....

If the TV has scart input, you could use a VGA to scart with the ArcadeVGA card...that also looks lovely too, although you would need to test both routes to see the difference...

[Xyga]

It's one of the 4:3 Hi-Scan models then: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FD_Trinitron/WEGA
I suppose those support 480p and 720p progressive resolutions, but the manual states the DVI input is not intended for use with a computer, whatever that means;

From KV-40XBR800 operating instructions:

Can accommodate a copy-protected digital connection (HDCP*) to other devices
(such as digital set-top boxes) that have compatible interfaces. The DVI-HDTV
input terminal is compliant with the EIA-861 standard and is not intended for use
with personal computers. See the instruction manual that came with your
equipment for details about connecting and using it with the TV.

It also says input signals 720p are converted to 1080i...

[Fudoh]

but the manual states the DVI input is not intended for use with a computer,

it means that only SMPTE timings are guaranteed to work (480p, 720p, 1080i).

[Xyga]

Way to get people confused lol !

[bobrocks95]

Be aware that's it's going to weigh 250-300 pounds as well...

[Endymion]

Sounds like you are talking about the Sony KV-40XBR800, this is the model that has DVI. There is another 40" model, the KV-40XBR700, which does not have HDMI but does have component.

I have the KV-40XBR800. I love it to pieces and plan to keep it til I die. Provided you use the actual resolutions of your classic games, they will appear exactly as they should, that is, exactly as they would on any other Trinitron of the era. That said, Trinitron tubes may be considerably brighter and of higher quality than some cheaper tubes. In particular, it doesn't use a shadow mask or a slot mask, and it bears no actual vertical pixels, and as a side effect (a positive one imo) it will eliminate vertical moire from the image. It will not look like a computer monitor running emulation at these resolutions, but it will have a distinct appearance from other CRTs. If you have seen and compared a Trinitron this won't be new to you, but if you haven't just be aware it is a different look.

And yes, the tube alone, without the stand that it was sold with, weighs 305 pounds. No more than two grown men are required to lift and move it, but wimps need to call professional movers. Trust me on this, if two people cannot lift it comfortably then you should get paid help, three or more people trying to lift/move it is a recipe for disaster.

[Classicgamer]

Yes, that is the model.

I used to have 25" Sony Trinitron in my room when I was a kid. I remember that games looked better on it than they did on my computer monitor so I guess that is the look that I like too.

Do you use the DVI input or component when you play classic games?

Sounds like you are talking about the Sony KV-40XBR800, this is the model that has DVI. There is another 40" model, the KV-40XBR700, which does not have HDMI but does have component.

I have the KV-40XBR800. I love it to pieces and plan to keep it til I die. Provided you use the actual resolutions of your classic games, they will appear exactly as they should, that is, exactly as they would on any other Trinitron of the era. That said, Trinitron tubes may be considerably brighter and of higher quality than some cheaper tubes. In particular, it doesn't use a shadow mask or a slot mask, and it bears no actual vertical pixels, and as a side effect (a positive one imo) it will eliminate vertical moire from the image. It will not look like a computer monitor running emulation at these resolutions, but it will have a distinct appearance from other CRTs. If you have seen and compared a Trinitron this won't be new to you, but if you haven't just be aware it is a different look.

And yes, the tube alone, without the stand that it was sold with, weighs 305 pounds. No more than two grown men are required to lift and move it, but wimps need to call professional movers. Trust me on this, if two people cannot lift it comfortably then you should get paid help, three or more people trying to lift/move it is a recipe for disaster.

[Classicgamer]

Would you mind uploading a screenshot to show how the image looks on it? I would love to see Street Fighter 2, for example, running on an emulator without any of the scan lines or other enhancements turned on. It doesn't have to SF2. Any popular mame game except Final Fight will do.

I am curious to see if the spaces in between scan lines are visible like they are with emulated scan lines. I don't remember seeing visible lines in the image when I was a kid, unless I stretched the image vertically (which I sometimes did to make Snes games full screen instead of letter-box).

Sounds like you are talking about the Sony KV-40XBR800, this is the model that has DVI. There is another 40" model, the KV-40XBR700, which does not have HDMI but does have component.

I have the KV-40XBR800. I love it to pieces and plan to keep it til I die. Provided you use the actual resolutions of your classic games, they will appear exactly as they should, that is, exactly as they would on any other Trinitron of the era. That said, Trinitron tubes may be considerably brighter and of higher quality than some cheaper tubes. In particular, it doesn't use a shadow mask or a slot mask, and it bears no actual vertical pixels, and as a side effect (a positive one imo) it will eliminate vertical moire from the image. It will not look like a computer monitor running emulation at these resolutions, but it will have a distinct appearance from other CRTs. If you have seen and compared a Trinitron this won't be new to you, but if you haven't just be aware it is a different look.

And yes, the tube alone, without the stand that it was sold with, weighs 305 pounds. No more than two grown men are required to lift and move it, but wimps need to call professional movers. Trust me on this, if two people cannot lift it comfortably then you should get paid help, three or more people trying to lift/move it is a recipe for disaster.

[Xyga]

Provided you use the actual resolutions of your classic games, they will appear exactly as they should, that is, exactly as they would on any other Trinitron of the era.

But aren't the Hi-Scan 100Hz or 120Hz sets ? Those are incapable of displaying true low resolutions.

I think in the US there aren't any consumer CRT TVs that do anyway, got to go the broadcast monitor way if you want the real thing.

[Ed Oscuro]

But aren't the Hi-Scan 100Hz or 120Hz sets ? Those are incapable of displaying true low resolutions

That was my first thought as well, but apparently it's an acceptable set.

Holy cow, it's an XBR! at 40"! Go get it.

Some interesting information in the last post here, make sure to read the final comment to the end. The DVI input on this TV should not need running through an XRGB or anything similar but you will have to make sure that your source is sending the correct signal.

[brentsg]

I came sooo close to buying one of these at Ultimate Electronics at one point. Damn shame that I didn't, though my back would likely be worse than it is.

[Triple Lei]

Can I join the "4:3 CRT TV with DVI input" club too?

I got one except mine's a Panasonic Tau. 36 inch, and I got it for friggin' free on the side of the road, though wheeling it to my house was certainly an ordeal. Beautiful, brilliant picture and amazing sound. I know Gradius V is pretty goddamned amazing on that thing...

Anyway, 240p games look and play OK. No lag that I've noticed. On my set (I know, different manufacturer), I seemed to notice more blur with Super Mario Bros. and Duck Hunt was unplayable.

This TV does have a pretty big overscan problem, but my unused Gefen Home Theater scaler was perfect for this as I could set it to Underscan. Now I could actually see the lifebars in Street Fighter II in MAME. And the scaler is the only way to go if for whatever reason I wanted to play PS3 games on it. I'd set the PS3 to 720p and have the scaler upscale to 1080i and it looks great. Letterboxed, sure, but you retain the warm, loving, warming glow of a CRT, and again, dat sound.

For what it's worth I didn't much like the emulated scanlines playing Cho Ren Sha on this thing. I guess my appreciation for scanlines is like a bell curve; at a certain point, with a screen that big and the picture that brilliant, I wouldn't want anything darkening the image.

[Classicgamer]

Do you use the DVI input on the Panasonic? Have you compared it to using an Svideo input on the same tv? I really want to know if using the DVI input makes the image look blocky in comparison to svideo or composite inputs.


As a matter of interest, why would you have emulated scanlines turned on when using a real CRT?

Surely scanlines are a feature of CRT tv's and only need emulating when you are not using a CRT tv or monitor?

If you are using a CRT tv, your image is already as it was meant to be isn't it? Or do you have to turn on the emulated scanlines to counter the blocky image effects caused by using the DVI input?

What resolution do you set mame and your graphics card to when playing on the Panasonic? Do you have a fast CPU and GPU and if not, could that be causing the lag that you mention on duck hunt etc? Does the Panasonic not have a gaming mode or the ability to turn off the processing effects that cause the lag?

I have read a lot about lag problems but I have never experienced it myself (as long as I am using a wired joystick) but it could be one of those things that you only notice when you are used to a screen with no lag. My assumption is that lag is mainly caused by scaling which is slower on some tv's than others. I can understand why this would impact modern fixed pixel displays but I don't really understand why the issue applies to CRT tv's. My understanding is that CRT's don't have a fixed resolution and are only limited by their bandwidth for generating scanlines. That is why old high end CRT monitors are capable of high resolutions that are beyond their time. Pretty much all CRT screens were made to handle sd resolutions though.

My thought was that, as long as I set my computer to output a resolution that the CRT tv can handle, no scaling would be performed by the tv. Then there should be no lag, as long as the computer and GPU are decent. Is this wrong?

I know that some of the later models had other video processing features to enhance sd movie content and that those features can cause a lag. From memory, those features can be turned off on most sets. Are there some CRT sets with undefeatable video processing features that can't be made to work with classic games? What is the cause of the lag on those sets or, what features should I make sure to avoid?

It seems strange that you would only have problems on some games and not others. Are you sure that the problems with Duck Hunt are caused by the tv? Duck hunt was a light gun game right? Light guns are notorious for causing problems like that.

Btw, the 40" Sony is being offered for $100. The main problem is moving it. They don't fit in normal cars and they weigh a ton. It is like trying to move a sumo wrestler who is in a coma. I will need to hire a pick up truck and people to help lift it etc. $100 will quickly turn into $600+ by the time I get it home.

Would you mind uploading a pic showing how Street Fighter 2 (mame not snes) looks on the Panasonic through the DVI input (with no artificial scanlines or smoothing effects)? I really want to see how it looks before I try and move that Sumo wrestler....


Are there some sets which have video process

[Endymion]

Yes, that is the model.

I used to have 25" Sony Trinitron in my room when I was a kid. I remember that games looked better on it than they did on my computer monitor so I guess that is the look that I like too.

The computer monitors I use are Trinitrons as well, but the strips are so fine that you usually need to resort to scanline shaders to work well with them even if you lower the resolution to 640x480.

Do you use the DVI input or component when you play classic games?

I used it with both DVI and a direct component adapter that my video card came with, when I used it with my computer. But now that you ask, and I see where you are going with this, when I used it for emulation gaming, I had only used the component inputs. Unknown if it would get the down low resolutions via DVI, although I would expect it to work offhand.

Would you mind uploading a screenshot to show how the image looks on it? I would love to see Street Fighter 2, for example, running on an emulator without any of the scan lines or other enhancements turned on. It doesn't have to SF2. Any popular mame game except Final Fight will do.

Sadly, I acquired the KV-40XBR800 when I was single, married now and and have had to move the KV-40XBR800 off to storage last year (two kids already). It's probably going to stay there til we move out of state, so long-term. But I'm absolutely not letting it go, it will be a centerpiece of my game room when I have a bigger home.

I am curious to see if the spaces in between scan lines are visible like they are with emulated scan lines. I don't remember seeing visible lines in the image when I was a kid, unless I stretched the image vertically (which I sometimes did to make Snes games full screen instead of letter-box).

Again, provided you use an actual resolution of the game involved, you'll see those scanlines. In fact I remember this being a big complaint from folks not long after the thin/LCD/plasmas became available, dumping the Trinitrons left and right "because I can see the artifacts on all my games!" No accounting for taste, but there you have it.

But aren't the Hi-Scan 100Hz or 120Hz sets ? Those are incapable of displaying true low resolutions.

No, it is neither, straight up 60Hz all the way. Maybe you are thinking of HiScans marketed in Europe/UK, but I have no experience with those.

Anyway, it's a beautiful TV, pounce on it!

Edit: googled and found this, the only actual game screenshots I could find for this TV. They're not so good or close-up but give a decent idea.

Edit Edit: btw might not want to tate this thing.

[Xyga]

But aren't the Hi-Scan 100Hz or 120Hz sets ? Those are incapable of displaying true low resolutions.

No, it is neither, straight up 60Hz all the way. Maybe you are thinking of HiScans marketed in Europe/UK, but I have no experience with those.

A set capable of 480p & 720p is either 31KHz or multi-sync.

On 31KHz consumer crt TVs (marketed as native or framedoubling 100Hz PAL & 120Hz NTSC) it is impossible to display proper 15KHz low-res signals.
Again; unless the set is a true multi-sync of course.

But I have never seen any outside arcade cabs and broadcast monitors.
Which is why I have doubts about the supposed genuine look of real low-res sytems on those.
I've seen what it's like on that kind of sets that convert 15KHz to 31KHz several times, and it's nothing like the real deal.
EU sets do both PAL & NTSC and aside the fact that they have a scart RGB input they're fundamentally the same.

[Endymion]

A set capable of 480p & 720p is either 31KHz or multi-sync.

Not sure what this has to do with it being 100 or 120Hz, of which it is neither, but it is "capable" of accepting 720p. It always outputs it as 1080i when you do so, though. It does proper 480i which isn't imposed into a 480p broadcast, so while being "multi-sync" is not a feature that these TVs were advertised for, the meaning you getting at is I think what this set is. It is absolutely doing 15KHz when running lesser than 480p.

On 31KHz consumer crt TVs (marketed as native or framedoubling 100Hz PAL & 120Hz NTSC) it is impossible to display proper 15KHz low-res signals.
Again; unless the set is a true multi-sync of course.

But I have never seen any outside arcade cabs and broadcast monitors.

100Hz sets as far as I know were never marketed in the USA. It wouldn't make any sense, 100Hz was done in an attempt to upgrade interlaced broadcasts at 50Hz (PAL) and this is why it was never done for American/NTSC sets. 120Hz is something I've never seen in a CRT in this country either, marketed as an upgrade to, well, any broadcast on NTSC HDTVs. Unlike 100Hz PAL CRTs, 120Hz actually has one good purpose, it eliminates all judder from movie sources (DVD, BluRay) by providing a sync rate that is divisible by the framerate of the movie (24 divides evenly into 120). Frame interpolation with 120Hz (or 240Hz) is garbage, everybody pretty well knows it already. Do you actually know of any 120Hz NTSC CRT television? I've never seen nor heard of one.

[Classicgamer]

Is it best to avoid all frame doubling sets or do some have a gaming mode that fixes the problem?

Btw, not all sets in Europe were capable of both NTSC and Pal and not all had scart sockets either. When I lived in the UK as a kid, I used to import my consoles from the US and Japan so games would run at full speed and full-screen. All pal consoles before the Playstation 1 suck. They never converted them properly so you had to put up with squashed graphics and 17.5% slower games unless you imported them.

Only a few tv brands worked with my American Snes and Neo Geo. Sony Trinitron sets were good because they all had scart sockets and could display 60htz NTSC content. Few cheap brands could display NTSC content, even if they had a scart socket. Plus, some that claimed to be NTSC compatible were not real NTSC, they converted NTSC to Pal and gave you the same squashed image that didn't film the 625 lines.

My first Snes (which was a Japanese Super Famicom) had a hole drilled in the back to allow a scart lead to be hard wired to the motherboard.

I found the image to be blocky when I used a scart lead, in comparison to composite inputs. I always thought that improving the clarity of those low res consoles made the games look worse which is why I want to know how they look through a DVI input.

Living in the US now, at least I don't have to worry about tv's that aren't capable of displaying a 60hz signal.

But aren't the Hi-Scan 100Hz or 120Hz sets ? Those are incapable of displaying true low resolutions.

No, it is neither, straight up 60Hz all the way. Maybe you are thinking of HiScans marketed in Europe/UK, but I have no experience with those.

A set capable of 480p & 720p is either 31KHz or multi-sync.

On 31KHz consumer crt TVs (marketed as native or framedoubling 100Hz PAL & 120Hz NTSC) it is impossible to display proper 15KHz low-res signals.
Again; unless the set is a true multi-sync of course.

But I have never seen any outside arcade cabs and broadcast monitors.
Which is why I have doubts about the supposed genuine look of real low-res sytems on those.
I've seen what it's like on that kind of sets that convert 15KHz to 31KHz several times, and it's nothing like the real deal.
EU sets do both PAL & NTSC and aside the fact that they have a scart RGB input they're fundamentally the same.

[Classicgamer]

I remember when 100 hz sets started being advertised in the UK. From memory, it was a Philips innovation. If it wasn't marketed in the US, it is probably because Philips sold their brand name to Funai in North America and while they have the same name, they are different companies. Even today, none of the cool Philips brand sets are released in the US. Their 21:9 tv's, for example, were never sold here and more recently, their very cool "design line" sets, also not available.

I doubt that it had anything to do with the US not needing it on account of the quality of the NTSC standard. The Pal standard had more lines, so in theory, more detail. The difference between 50hz and 60hz in terms of flicker, is not really noticeable. Plus, many tv's in the US have frame smoothing these days so it is seen as beneficial to both markets.

Making a UK set 120hz would not have helped back then because all of the content was in Pal format.

A set capable of 480p & 720p is either 31KHz or multi-sync.

Not sure what this has to do with it being 100 or 120Hz, of which it is neither, but it is "capable" of accepting 720p. It always outputs it as 1080i when you do so, though. It does proper 480i which isn't imposed into a 480p broadcast, so while being "multi-sync" is not a feature that these TVs were advertised for, the meaning you getting at is I think what this set is. It is absolutely doing 15KHz when running lesser than 480p.

On 31KHz consumer crt TVs (marketed as native or framedoubling 100Hz PAL & 120Hz NTSC) it is impossible to display proper 15KHz low-res signals.
Again; unless the set is a true multi-sync of course.

But I have never seen any outside arcade cabs and broadcast monitors.

100Hz sets as far as I know were never marketed in the USA. It wouldn't make any sense, 100Hz was done in an attempt to upgrade interlaced broadcasts at 50Hz (PAL) and this is why it was never done for American/NTSC sets. 120Hz is something I've never seen in a CRT in this country either, marketed as an upgrade to, well, any broadcast on NTSC HDTVs. Unlike 100Hz PAL CRTs, 120Hz actually has one good purpose, it eliminates all judder from movie sources (DVD, BluRay) by providing a sync rate that is divisible by the framerate of the movie (24 divides evenly into 120). Frame interpolation with 120Hz (or 240Hz) is garbage, everybody pretty well knows it already. Do you actually know of any 120Hz NTSC CRT television? I've never seen nor heard of one.

[Xyga]

I always get confused by American crt TVs, so basically such models are EDTVs without framedoubling, right ?

Correct me if I'm wrong but this means;

- Component -> 480i, 480p 'progressive scan', 1080i, 720p ? (converted to 1080i ?)
- DVI -> 480p, 720p (But is it genuine 720p here or is it converted to 1080i again ? That's what I don't get reading the manual)
- S-Video / Composite -> 240p - genuine/no conversion ?

@Classicgamer: yeah I tend to forget that but I grew up France where all TVs had scart RGB, consoles had scart RGB too starting with the Sega Master System (IIRC).
Regarding NTSC it was supported by pretty much all sets sold after 1994-1995 or so.
And yes unfortunately all Euro EDTV equivalents did framedoubling.

[Endymion]

I remember when 100 hz sets started being advertised in the UK. From memory, it was a Philips innovation. If it wasn't marketed in the US, it is probably because Philips sold their brand name to Funai in North America and while they have the same name, they are different companies. Even today, none of the cool Philips brand sets are released in the US. Their 21:9 tv's, for example, were never sold here and more recently, their very cool "design line" sets, also not available.

Philips had televisions in the USA all throughout this era. Dunno about anything particularly "cool," but they existed here, pretty sure their tubes were made south of the border (Mexico).

I doubt that it had anything to do with the US not needing it on account of the quality of the NTSC standard.

That's not what I meant. 100Hz is evenly divisible by 50. It would make zero sense to create a 100Hz television for sale and use in the USA when it would need to convert every broadcast, even from consumer devices (DVD players, consoles cable boxes etc.) from 60Hz. It would have been a big mess. And 120Hz just was not done in that era, not sure where Xyga is getting that from. Why it wasn't done then, I couldn't tell you. Maybe the engineers figured 60Hz was sufficiently fast, maybe 480p and HD resolutions were higher priority in NTSC areas. It does seem like I remember HDTV did hit the USA a bit sooner while everyone in PAL lands were complaining about problems with 100Hz TVs.

The Pal standard had more lines, so in theory, more detail. The difference between 50hz and 60hz in terms of flicker, is not really noticeable. Plus, many tv's in the US have frame smoothing these days so it is seen as beneficial to both markets.

That's the drawback, at least for 120Hz as it exists today. Frame interpolation can be used with 120Hz as a means to create a new frame not in the footage or broadcast by averaging from the first frame and the second, creating a mid-frame that is a smeared, blurred version of it. Additionally, this requires processing that causes lag, and adds to the cost of the set. It may have been possible in the time of CRTs, but I've never heard of it in a tube at all. Everybody with a decent 120Hz HDTV turns off frame interpolation for their games, if they know wtf they are doing anyway.

Making a UK set 120hz would not have helped back then because all of the content was in Pal format.

Yeah, but the KV-40XBR800 is neither 120Hz nor 100Hz. Did you get it yet? Got an able-bodied lifting partner?

[Endymion]

I always get confused by American crt TVs, so basically such models are EDTVs without framedoubling, right ?

There are both EDTVs (480i/480p only), and HDTVs in the CRT era. If framedoubling were ever done in a particular model, it wasn't much success because I've never seen this feature on any CRT stateside.

Correct me if I'm wrong but this means;

- Component -> 480i, 480p 'progressive scan', 1080i, 720p ? (converted to 1080i ?)
- DVI -> 480p, 720p (But is it genuine 720p here or is it converted to 1080i again ? That's what I don't get reading the manual)
- S-Video / Composite -> 240p - genuine/no conversion ?

480i is actual 480i, 480p is actual 480p, 1080i is actual 1080i, and at least with this CRT, 720p will be converted to 1080i. There is an actual resolution switching going on between these broadcasts. With the exception of a set that takes 720p, that is. Many if not most CRTs do not even accept 720p, so if you want a high resolution image on one such as that you need to go with 1080i.

[Xyga]

There are both EDTVs (480i/480p only), and HDTVs in the CRT era. If framedoubling were ever done in a particular model, it wasn't much success because I've never seen this feature on any CRT stateside.

Yeah I know the first part, it's just those particular US sets that bugged me because they're clearly different, and that confusing DVI input is just for convenience/compatibility in the end.
Looks like the only thing a similar Euro set has in common is 480p through component.

480i is actual 480i, 480p is actual 480p, 1080i is actual 1080i, and at least with this CRT, 720p will be converted to 1080i.

My point was I had doubts about that kind of set being able to display true low resolutions because I believed framedoubling was a thing there.
Whatever, those are actually pretty normal sets and if one wishes for true low resolutions (8/16/32bit console & arcade) one has to go through S-Video if possible, or composite.
Ok there's no RGB but being able to get 240p, 480i and 480p on the same crt display is actually quite nice.
I wish Euro sets did the same, a combination of the US signals and RGB would have been perfect of course.

[Classicgamer]

Many did exactly that. All of the Sony Trinitrons in Europe were capable of displaying true NTSC (in 60hz) through RGB scart, Svideo or phono.

The difference between a snes connected through svideo and one connected through rgb scart is too small to care about. Side by side, you might be able to see little differences but you would find it hard to say which is "better". Those graphics do not benefit from too much clarity...

The main advantage of using scart over svideo in Europe is that the tv didn't need to be NTSC compatible to run American and Japanese consoles through scart (as long as it could accept a 60hz signal). With Svideo, you just got a black and white image on most TV's. Also, the Superguns for playing arcade PCBs were all connected through scart in Europe.

There are both EDTVs (480i/480p only), and HDTVs in the CRT era.
I wish Euro sets did the same, a combination of the US signals and RGB would have been perfect of course.

[Xyga]

Many did exactly that.

Er, nope not even one did, ever. NTSC yes of course, but real 240p, 480i & 480p all on the same set: never existed in Europe.
240p + 480i = yes
480i + 480p = yes
240p + 480i + 480p = no
The '100/120Hz' models could 'accept' all signals, but not without doing the horrible framedoubling.

The difference between a snes connected through svideo and one connected through rgb scart is too small to care about. Side by side, you might be able to see little differences but you would find it hard to say which is "better". Those graphics do not benefit from too much clarity...

I wouldn't go that far, for me the difference between RGB vs. S-Video has always well noticeable. The lack of clarity, poorer colors, and bleeding reds of S-Video always placed it below RGB, I think there has always been a large consensus on that.

the tv didn't need to be NTSC compatible to run American and Japanese consoles through scart (as long as it could accept a 60hz signal)

Not sure what you mean here since the only Euro TVs that would accept NTSC 60Hz hardware were those featuring NTSC compatibility, which was specifically mentioned in the specs and even often on the packaging (most models since the middle of the 90's).
Some older models had a v_hold potentiometer you could fiddle with to bring the signal down to 50Hz but that wasn't really nice.

[bobrocks95]

Going from S-Video to RGB from my SNES on a consumer television blew me away the second I saw it. I'm not sure why people say there's not a noticeable difference.

[Classicgamer]

That's not accurate. I had a tv that accepted a 60hz signal but only a PAL one. For a while, I owned an American Snes and used a converter that allowed me to run it at 60hz (full screen / full speed) through the rf socket. Connecting that same Snes to that tv using svideo or component cables just showed a black and white picture.

On tv's that couldn't handle 60hz, you got no image at all, it just flickered a lot.

Then there were tv's that were listed as "NTSC compatible" but they meant only NTSC 4.43 instead of 3.58 which converted the signal to Pal. I had a tv like that for about 1 day until I returned it because my US Snes came out full speed but letter boxed. They were fine for playing US laser discs as long as you didn't mind ghosting but they were terrible for games.

If you had a tv with a working scart socket that could accept 60hz, then the tv didn't need to be NTSC compatible to play a US Snes full screen, full speed and full color, as long as it could display RGB (which not all scart sockets could). My dad used to buy these terrible cheap Eastern European tvs that had scart sockets without the RGB pins connected.....

None of that has anything to do with the resolution. Using a scart socket did nothing to increase the number of lines. The number of lines that a CRT display can produce is down to the bandwidth of the device. Higher end devices were often capable of higher resolutions than anyone needed at the time. The Sony G90 CRT projector, for example, has enough bandwidth to display well past 1080p. In a way, it made them more future proof than modern displays. Owners of the G90 are good all the way up to 2160p.

The 100hz tv is a different issue to resolution or the number of lines. They were made to reduce flicker and give a more detailed image through frame creation. That is all. The screen refreshing faster does not increase the number of lines. Never did.

The tv's that could display 480p were / are ones with higher bandwidth. If you happened to have a 100hz tv than could display 480p, that is a coincidence and not because it is 100hz. Modern plasma tv's claimed to be capable of 600hz refresh rates. That doesn't make them 4k.

On Svideo vs scart, we'll have to agree to disagree. If there was a "wide concencus", there isn't any more. Rgb scart was technically superior but svideo was very close. You prefer greater color seperation, I prefer fewer jaggies. Maybe it is a simple as that.

Many did exactly that.

Er, nope not even one did, ever. NTSC yes of course, but real 240p, 480i & 480p all on the same set: never existed in Europe.
240p + 480i = yes
480i + 480p = yes
240p + 480i + 480p = no
The '100/120Hz' models could 'accept' all signals, but not without doing the horrible framedoubling.

The difference between a snes connected through svideo and one connected through rgb scart is too small to care about. Side by side, you might be able to see little differences but you would find it hard to say which is "better". Those graphics do not benefit from too much clarity...

I wouldn't go that far, for me the difference between RGB vs. S-Video has always well noticeable. The lack of clarity, poorer colors, and bleeding reds of S-Video always placed it below RGB, I think there has always been a large consensus on that.

the tv didn't need to be NTSC compatible to run American and Japanese consoles through scart (as long as it could accept a 60hz signal)

Not sure what you mean here since the only Euro TVs that would accept NTSC 60Hz hardware were those featuring NTSC compatibility, which was specifically mentioned in the specs and even often on the packaging (most models since the middle of the 90's).
Some older models had a v_hold potentiometer you could fiddle with to bring the signal down to 50Hz but that wasn't really nice.

[Xyga]

Sorry but I have never experienced any issues like the ones you describe with most Euro TVs since the mid-90's and I don't know anybody who has, whether it was with PAL or NTSC consoles.
At least not on any TV with a scart RGB input.
People using RF or S-Video have always been very few over there (at least among gamers) since all we ever needed was a scart cable or custom/adapter for JP-21 ones.
Always RGB full color, full speed, PAL and NTSC, on pretty much every set past 1994-95: that's the reality I've known for almost 20 years.

[Xan]

To bring a little bit of objectivity into that S-Video vs. RGB talk on the SNES: http://retrorgb.com/rgbmonitors.html (comparison below)

[Fudoh]

Owners of the G90 are good all the way up to 2160p.

That's beyond it's sweet spot though. On a CRT projector you usually want a higher refresh as well, which costs additional bandwith.