Classic PC Gaming (DOS thru Win98SE and contemporaries)

[Edmond Dantes]

I wanted to title this "DOS thru Windows 98SE and anything from that time or earlier" so this thread could include fuck-old comps like the Apple IIe and PC booter games. Because why descriminate? Whether dying in Wizardry or dying in Tyrian 2000, you're still dying so you might as well live a little!

Anyway, some topics have indicated that there's retro-PC gamers here so we need a topic for this, especially to cover anything not covered by the genre-specific topics, to share memories or to be a technical help kinda thing.

.....

So, here's some questions to get you started, tho feel free to go into anything that fits the topic:

* Favorite MS-DOS shmup?

* Buck Rogers: Countdown to Doomsday: Best RPG ever or just really, really close?

* Artura: Has anyone ever beaten it?

* Who would win in a fight: Commander Keen or Dangerous Dave?

Start talking!

[LEGENOARYNINLIA]

Favourite Win95 shmup: Carax '95

Thinkpads 4evah

EDIT: Dangerous Dave would win

[Pinehed]

Buck Rogers: Countdown to Doomsday: Best RPG ever or just really, really close?

You serious, man? I mean, even looking only at Gold Box games, there are 6 of them I enjoyed more (and I'm not even venturing into FRUA territory, which I never explored much). But it seems even less popular ones had their fans. I had a soft spot for Treasures of Savage Frontier for example.

I consider Dark Sun: Shattered Lands to be the best crpg of the DOS era. Ravenloft games and Menzoberazzan should really have been developed using Dark Sun engine, maybe they'd be remembered as classics and not as some crappy EoB-Wolfenstein hybrids. Or maybe not, considering that Wake of the Ravager was much worse than the first game.

Other DOS crpgs I'd put in my top 3 are Amberstar and Albion. German developers definitely knew how to make a memorable crpg.

[Edmond Dantes]

I love the Gold Box series in general, but BR:Countdown gets points from me for three reasons.

First is the afformentioned "already like Gold Box"

Second is that finally we have an RPG with a sci-fi setting (which even among PC RPGs, are far more rare than I would like), and on top of that the mechanics actually feel like they were adapted to fit a more sciencey universe as opposed to just "we'll call magic 'psychic powers' so that it can mechanically be the same as fantasy RPGs."

Third is ITS BUCK FUCKING ROGERS MAN!!! Seriously, love that guy.

So yeah, I may be a little biased.

... Surprised this topic has so little discussion. Do people not understand that the "and contemporaries" part means "any computer system from around the same time"? Other threads about primarily PC gaming have been active so why not one where any and all retro PC gaming are invited?

[Blinge]

Alright prepare for some foggy and possibly incorrect memories. So when i was a kid I had a shareware disc with all sorts of cool shit like Doom demo (and raptor call of shadows heh).

There was a first person RPG, at least I think it was an RPG but I can't remember what it was called. The UI looked something like this game; Ishar III, but that's not it.


here's some other things I remember:
*There were party member portraits on screen
*You could speak to somebody in a church/temple and offer a donation
*I tried swimming in water once and a party member or two drowned
*I entered a tavern and tried two options: buying a round for every patron, and attempting to play music using my party's weapons, I was promptly thrown out.
*I don't remember there being any combat in the village I started in.
*Spoke to a (i think female?) NPC outside and asked about disease, she said the worst I'd get is a cough from sleeping outside.
*This is more blurry than other memories but some of the dialogue boxes might've been in German or other language, I do remember saying "ja" instead of yes

Is any of this familiar to anyone? It's been bothering me for YEARS.

[Edmond Dantes]

Admittedly there are sooo many RPGs that could be but for some reason "Amberstar" comes to mind right off the bat because of the mention of German.

I admittedly have never played Amberstar so that's a blind guess.

EDIT: Going by that logic tho, it could also be one of the Realms of Arkania games. HG101 has an article about the series.

Also you should probably look thru the CRPG Addict blog and see if anything strikes a chord of memory.

[Blinge]

I think this is it! Realms of Arkania II: Star Trail.

I can't be 100% sure until I get DosBox and try playing my weapons in a tavern to make music. But this video looks so familiar. god damn FINALLY!
='D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmdAZXc8PKA

Thankyou Monte Cristo , I should've posted about it sooner.

[Pinehed]

I think this is it! Realms of Arkania II: Star Trail.

I can't be 100% sure until I get DosBox and try playing my weapons in a tavern to make music. But this video looks so familiar. god damn FINALLY!
='D

Yeah, it's probably one of Arcania games. Iirc they had temple donations, diseases and playing instruments (not sure of weapons) in taverns. Definitely not Amberstar - you start with one character, in graveyard or in town near the graveyard entrance, and it lacks features you described. I also thought of Darklands - not a German game, but it takes place in medieval Germany, so it could have some German words in dialogues. But graphical presentation is very different from Ishar games. So Arcania series is your best bet.

Second is that finally we have an RPG with a sci-fi setting (which even among PC RPGs, are far more rare than I would like), and on top of that the mechanics actually feel like they were adapted to fit a more sciencey universe as opposed to just "we'll call magic 'psychic powers' so that it can mechanically be the same as fantasy RPGs."

I also thought that sci-fi rpgs were a scarce commodity then, but looking at places like CRPG Addict blog, there were actually quite a few of them. Wasteland obviously. Two BattleTech games, which were really bland, especially when compared to something like Front Mission series. Two Megatraveller games with character creation system more interesting and better than the rest of the game. Twilight 2000 - same, though it at least had interesting (for me) premise, as it takes place in my country (Poland) after World War 3. Not worth playing anyway. Space 1889, Sentinel Worlds and Starflight games - never played those.

Two pre-Fallout sci-fi crpgs (with fantasy elements) I'd recommend are Perihelion (Amiga, 1993) and Albion (MS-DOS, 1995).

... Surprised this topic has so little discussion. Do people not understand that the "and contemporaries" part means "any computer system from around the same time"? Other threads about primarily PC gaming have been active so why not one where any and all retro PC gaming are invited?

Maybe the topic is too broad? Plus it's a shmups forum after all, so I suspect that Megadrive or TG16 topics are always going to get more replies.

I intentionally avoided your "favourite MS-DOS shmup" question - coudn't think of any. If we're talking about any contemporary computer then it's probably SWIV (Amiga). But let's be honest - even the best (non-Japanese) computer shmups were nothing special back then compared to some of console games. SWIV eventually got released in slightly modified form for Megadrive, SNES and GBC and I like all these versions, but don't think they gained any popularity among the console crowd.

[Blinge]

I tried getting into System Shock a few years back, I guess you could call it an action RPG right? (iirc)
The combat was so tricky that I felt vulnerable at all times and the game became scary.

[Jonathan Ingram]

Two pre-Fallout sci-fi crpgs (with fantasy elements) I'd recommend are Perihelion (Amiga, 1993) and Albion (MS-DOS, 1995).

Great choices. Especially Albion. It's like proto-Avatar but better and with naked furries. Runs well in both DOSBox and WinXP.

Continuing the topic of oldies but goodies, I hope everyone here has played Star Control 2? If Mass Effect didn't suck it would be Star Control 2... or if Star Control 2 sucked it would be Mass Effect. Whatever... SC2 is a space exploration/adventure with depth and variety that few games could match(Starflight is the next best thing). Originally a PC game, it was ported over to the 3DO with improvements. In early 2000s the source code was released and the fan community remade the improved 3DO version for Windows and a number of other operating systems and devices(there's even a PSP version!). The game is available for free under the name of The Ur-Quan Masters(since the original name is copyrighted): http://sc2.sourceforge.net/

Recently, The Ur-Quan Masters has been meticulously recreated in HD(which gave me an excuse to replay it for the tenth time since manipulating the evil but tragically stupid starfaring spiders from the Ilwrath race into calling themselves Dill-rats never gets old) retaining the detail and artistic integrity of the original. This version can be gotten here: http://sourceforge.net/projects/urquanmastershd/

[Pinehed]

I tried getting into System Shock a few years back, I guess you could call it an action RPG right? (iirc)
The combat was so tricky that I felt vulnerable at all times and the game became scary.

I played System Shock very briefly. Sadly, like with so many other titles, I remember literally nothing of the game. But your mention of it reminded me of some other sci-fi realtime / action rpgs:

Captive - a Dungeon Master clone recently reviewed by CRPG Addict. His main criticism being that it's not really a rpg.

Hired Guns - another Dungeon Master clone with 4 characters moving indepedently on a split screen. I never really cared about it, but it's highly regarded by Amiga aficionados and worth checking out by people who enjoy Dungeon Master type games.

Continuing the topic of oldies but goodies, I hope everyone here has played Star Control 2? If Mass Effect didn't suck it would be Star Control 2... or if Star Control 2 sucked it would be Mass Effect. Whatever... SC2 is a space exploration/adventure with depth and variety that few games could match(Starflight is the next best thing).

SC 2 is very good. The combat part gets boring eventually, but the plot and dialogue is brilliant - like something straight out of Stanislaw Lem's Cyberiad. Can't comment on Starflight, but I heard only good things about it, so it remains on my (huge) list of games to play before I die. But what about Space Rangers 2? The best game to ever come out of Russia or just really, really close?

[louisg]

]
Hired Guns - another Dungeon Master clone with 4 characters moving indepedently on a split screen. I never really cared about it, but it's highly regarded by Amiga aficionados and worth checking out by people who enjoy Dungeon Master type games.

Hired Guns is great, but I'd stick with the Amiga one. The DOS version is really finicky and a little weird/glitchy.

Commander Keen would win in a fight BTW. His stun gun is far more accurate at long ranges than Dave's shotgun. Plus he's got a pogo stick.

[cicada88]

Starcraft 1 + Brood War

[Edmond Dantes]

Two BattleTech games, which were really bland, especially when compared to something like Front Mission series.

Well, yeah a PC game from 1988 or so is gonna be bland compared to an SFC game from the mid-90s, particularly one by Squaresoft.

I actually have the Powerhits: Battletech collection (which contains the two Crescent Hawks games and the first Mechwarrior). Crescent Hawks Inception is a lot of fun though I'm not sure how you're supposed to win some of the 3-vs-1 (you being the 1) training combats. Maybe I'm just not familiar enough with the mechanics of the board game tho.

Barely started on Revenge tho since I wanna play the games in order, but it seems to be a radically different game from the first.

[Pinehed]

Two BattleTech games, which were really bland, especially when compared to something like Front Mission series.

Well, yeah a PC game from 1988 or so is gonna be bland compared to an SFC game from the mid-90s, particularly one by Squaresoft.

I actually have the Powerhits: Battletech collection (which contains the two Crescent Hawks games and the first Mechwarrior). Crescent Hawks Inception is a lot of fun though I'm not sure how you're supposed to win some of the 3-vs-1 (you being the 1) training combats. Maybe I'm just not familiar enough with the mechanics of the board game tho.

Barely started on Revenge tho since I wanna play the games in order, but it seems to be a radically different game from the first.

I played many of these games years after they were released, so I forgot there were 7 years between the release of first Battletech and first Front Mission. But there are some 1988 crpgs that stood the test of time better than Hawks Inception.

The thing with Battletech, Megatraveller and Twilight 2000 games is that they were based on pen and paper rpgs and I didn't feel they did justice to the source material in the same way that AD&D / D&D games or Arkania games (based on German Das Schwarze Auge pnp game) did. Much lower budget I guess.

One turn-based tactical mech combat DOS game you might want to check if you're into this kind of stuff is Powerdolls. It's a surprisingly solid game, despite being released in the west by a company known for importing crappy Japanese hentai crpgs. The mechs are piloted by anime girls (hence the title), but I don't think there's any nudity in this particular game. Not much in terms of the story too iirc, just a series of tactical battles with character leveling, mech upgrades etc.

[Jonathan Ingram]

SC 2 is very good. The combat part gets boring eventually

Agreed. It's probably the game's biggest flaw. Since you can max out your flagship early on thanks to the fairly low price of the module upgrades that the Melnorme sell to you, the combat quickly turns into an unrewarding nuisance. The camera being glued to the enemy spacecraft makes the whole process rather disorienting too. I'd greatly prefer if the combat carried out in a turn-based fashion similar to Master of Orion 2 with several spacecraft participating in the skirmish at the same time. A more extensive upgrade system would be more than welcome as well.

But what about Space Rangers 2? The best game to ever come out of Russia or just really, really close?

For my taste, it's the real-time strategy Perimeter with its terraforming voxel craziness, the tactical Silent Storm, the creepy and atmospheric Pathologic and, possibly, the WW2 RTS Blitzkrieg. But Space Rangers 2 is definitely very good too.

[Pinehed]

But what about Space Rangers 2? The best game to ever come out of Russia or just really, really close?

For my taste, it's the real-time strategy Perimeter with its terraforming voxel craziness, the tactical Silent Storm, the creepy and atmospheric Pathologic and, possibly, the WW2 RTS Blitzkrieg. But Space Rangers 2 is definitely very good too.

Space Rangers 2 just edges Silent Storm (+ Sentinels) for me and is also my favourite space combat / trading / exploration game. There was a wave of interesting Russian sci-fi games a decade or so ago, including also Parkan II and Star Wolves, but that's beyond this thread's scope.

On topic:

Another recommendation - Emperor of the Fading Suns (1996). A science fiction grand strategy game combining elements of Master of Orion, Civilization and General series. Set in a world resembling Dune universe. Great, criminally overlooked game.

[ZellSF]

Maybe the topic is too broad?

It is, but it's also too restrictive at the same time. It sounds just weird to leave out early XP-only games while allowing the latest Win98 games. Also restricting it to even that is weird, classic PC gaming is something we're still getting. It feels weird discussing games like Baldur's Gate and Fallout while avoiding discussing games like Pillars of Eternity and Wasteland 2

Next game I'm playing that fits this topic is Dark Forces, having just finished the excellent game Outlaws. Both essential games for anyone who likes old FPS games. Sadly have to take a small break from PC gaming first after some extended RTS gaming without taking proper ergonomic precautions.

Also looking forwards to see how bad the damage is on Beamdog's upcoming enhanced edition of Icewind Dale.

Random recommendation: OpenXcom. Open source attempts at ports without having the original source code usually don't go very far. OpenXcom definitely did, it's X-Com with a LOT of improvements. Anyone interested in X-Com should definitely check it out if they haven't already.

[Edmond Dantes]

(Sorry, wasn't home the last night or so)

Maybe the topic is too broad?

It is, but it's also too restrictive at the same time. It sounds just weird to leave out early XP-only games while allowing the latest Win98 games.

Sure, we can discuss those too.

... Wait, there's XP-only games?

Also restricting it to even that is weird, classic PC gaming is something we're still getting. It feels weird discussing games like Baldur's Gate and Fallout while avoiding discussing games like Pillars of Eternity and Wasteland 2

I'm not sure I understand the reasoning here. To me that's a little like saying that a topic called "The Playstation One" is restrictive because you can't discuss Devil May Cry in it.

This topic exists for a similar reason: for people looking for something in a particular field.

Let me put it to you from a different perspective: Suppose you're someone who is specifically interested in, say, SSI RPGs for MS-DOS, so you see this exact topic and think this might be a place to find people with similar or related interests. Would you really want to come here and see pages upon pages of discussions for a pair of recent Kickstarter-funded RPGs that only came out this year and which your computer can't even run? Moreso when one of them (Wasteland 2) already has a topic about it?

More likely is just there aren't as many PC gamers here since this forum seems to favor console gaming, which I totally anticipated. Still, it's still a place for those of us who know what the Dopefish is to come together.

Next game I'm playing that fits this topic is Dark Forces, having just finished the excellent game Outlaws. Both essential games for anyone who likes old FPS games. Sadly have to take a small break from PC gaming first after some extended RTS gaming without taking proper ergonomic precautions.

I need to find Outlaws sometime. Personally tho I kinda didn't care for Dark Forces, altho that's mostly just because Star Wars as a franchise burns me out, rather than any inherent problem with the game.

Also, I recently picked up a game called Cyclones (by SSI) at Goodwill, along with Red Alert 2. I personally am not the biggest Command & Conquer fan on the planet (I found the original C&C and RA kinda boring really) but I felt like I had to "rescue" this game. The former is apparently SSI's one (and only?) attempt at an FPS, but which apparently will only run in computers with Intel processors... since mine has an AMD, I'm gonna have to hope Dosbox can get around it.

Noticing my local Goodwill has a lot of flight sims. Super Huey III? (Was there ever a I or II?) Gunmetal? At least I assume these are flight sims, they could be a munitions manufacturing sim and a superhero version of Donald's nephew for all I know.

Also, internet show I feel like advertising: Ancient DOS Games. Like the name says he reviews DOS games. His videos tend to be more documentary style, with almost no attempts at humor, and he goes really-indepth (he actually has experience as a game designer too), to the point that sometimes he can pinpoint specific technical issues and (in some cases) find fixes. Every review also has recommended Dosbox settings.

[ZellSF]

I'm confused why the year a game is released is more important than its content.

You allow for discussion ranging from Final Fantasy VII to Gradius (totally makes sense for these two to be in the same topic), but you don't allow for mixing up Wasteland 2 discussion in Fallout talk (two closely related games? This calls for separate topics!).

[Edmond Dantes]

You allow for discussion ranging from Final Fantasy VII to Gradius (totally makes sense for these two to be in the same topic), but you don't allow for mixing up Wasteland 2 discussion in Fallout talk (two closely related games? This calls for separate topics!).

Darius II (under the name Sagaia) appeared on the Sega Megadrive. Does that mean then that we can now go to the Megadrive topic and discuss DariusBURST: Another Chronicle?

For that matter we seem to have a topic dedicated to every individual old console. Yet if we make a PC topic, it has to allow discussion of every game, even if that discussion alienates people whose systems don't meet the minimum requirements?

Just, I'm having trouble seeing your logic. It seems basically like because its PCs they have to be treated differently.

[ZellSF]

Console topics make more sense, because they cover at most 10 years of games made for one specific hardware configuration. Graphics look similar, music sounds similar and games play similar (partially because of controllers, and there seems to be genre switches between console generations that I have no idea why occur).

This topic however is much broader, covering 20 years of games made for countless different hardware configurations. It's extremely broad, and there's really nothing that connects all those games.

When it's that broad already, I don't think excluding games that are closely related to the ones being discussed makes sense.

[LEGENOARYNINLIA]

Can we talk about broads then?

[Edmond Dantes]

Ah, okay, I think I'm starting to see the problem here. In retrospect it might be better to make a topic for MS-DOS and then another for Win3.1/95/98. Most of my thought process at the time was "I want to talk about games that I would actually be able to play on a system I have."

(Not to say I can only play games from that period, but... well, since anything later necessitates using this here laptop, I don't care for it. Granted the thought of building a newer PC has crossed my mind so that I can record scarecam lets plays and be the next Markiplier once I forget how annoying my speaking voice is, but those inherently will never have the same whimsy, wonder and wonderful nostalgia that PC gaming in the late 90s did for me. Hell, likely I'd be bitching about how all horror games today are just "find the eight pages and by the way some random shithead pops up to kill you sometimes" bullshit whereas back in my day, we had games like The Lurking Horror which had actual narratives, and we loved it. Course then someone will remind me how good The Crooked Man was....)

Umm, errr, yeah.... basically I just didn't wanna start a topic that I'd wind up being locked out of because everyone is talking about a game I can't play.

If I may be playful real quick, Fallout is the reason Wasteland 2 should be allowed here? I would think Wasteland 1 would be a more compelling reason, since, ya know, there's actual blood lineage there. (For that matter, wasn't there a pseudo-spinoff called Fountain of Dreams or something like that? Anyone ever played it?)

EDIT: Sure we can talk about broads, just as long as they're classic PC gaming ones!

So, whose hotter... that Morley chick from the Monkey Island series, or Princess Rosella from King's Quest?