X68000 + Extron Emotia+ = Disappointment

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Ed Oscuro
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Re: X68000 + Extron Emotia+ = Disappointment

Post by Ed Oscuro »

I looked around for Mits MegaView monitors lately - they seem to be very rare out in the wild (but of course people are probably sitting on stacks of them, without the energy to post up details online).

They might work - then again, do we know that they handle VGA-style resolutions intelligently, or do they expect something special? The feature list does specify that it does analog and TTL RGB, as well as other formats not seen on a "normal" CRT monitor, so it looks promising. However, I didn't see here that it supports VGA. "Naive handling" of analog RGB inputs through a VGA d-sub connector is probably the best thing to get here.

The Sharp monitor looked just like the cheapest CRT monitor you'd ever seen; small, with pronounced curvature, not really impressive build quality or a dark tube, etc. It might have good parts inside - I don't know. Of course looks aren't everything - having support from 15KHz to 31KHz is a better feature than the many standard (and larger) PC and Mac monitors which came since.
antron wrote:Ed was just pointing out 24kHz games would be a no-go with the emotia.
I actually don't know (never bothered to find out) the full feature list of the Emotia...my limited knowledge basically doesn't go any farther than some Micomsoft units + direct connections to consumer TVs, VGA monitors, and broadcasting monitors. I can understand what simple converters do, but like Fudoh says, scan conversion has to be dealt with (and looks like the major roadblock here), not just pin adapters. My point was more that even if you do a pin adapter, the X68000 video pinout seems to only have separate H and V syncs - no combined sync of any kind. So even if your display is doing scan conversion you'll need to make sure sync is dealt with.
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Re: X68000 + Extron Emotia+ = Disappointment

Post by segasonicfan »

He intends to use a 15kHz monitor or TV. He is just trying to get his 31kHz games to display well on it. Ed was just pointing out 24kHz games would be a no-go with the emotia.

How about a regular trisync arcade monitor?
Ah, I didn't even know some games boot into 24khz. Any really good ones that do this? lol @ 68k video craziness. Either way I can probably do without that at this point.

I really don't want to invest in a new monitor for this. I have a wonderful 36" 15khz RGB monitor in my living room that weighs a ton and does the job great for all my other systems. I also have a Commodore RGB monitor and 2 flat screens, so I think I'm set on TVs for now :P
X68000 video pinout seems to only have separate H and V syncs - no combined sync of any kind. So even if your display is doing scan conversion you'll need to make sure sync is dealt with.
I built an adapter for this, so I am good to go on that. Thanks for the feedback on the Extron VSC, I'll look around for one. Any good places other than Ebay to check?

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Opethian
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Re: X68000 + Extron Emotia+ = Disappointment

Post by Opethian »

I don't know any games that boot into 24khz but the elf games (Wordsworth, Dragon knights) have a 24khz mode you choose at a menu. Fantasy Zone also has a 24khz mode.
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Re: X68000 + Extron Emotia+ = Disappointment

Post by segasonicfan »

Thanks for the advice everyone. I went and got this VSC 500:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Extron-VSC500-H ... true&rt=nc

I will report back with results!

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Re: X68000 + Extron Emotia+ = Disappointment

Post by segasonicfan »

One more thing that might interest people: I just remembered the ISL59885 Sync Separator has an HD detect output. Pin 5 goes low when the sync signal is >25khz. Pretty useful for a X68k gaming and switching displays / outputs :)

Datasheet: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... 6100,d.cGU

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Re: X68000 + Extron Emotia+ = Disappointment

Post by kamiboy »

I doubt any avid X68000 connoisseur could be happy with any of the half measure solution available. I wish I could go back to two years ago and kick my own ass before I sold that NEC XM29, not to mention that mint PVM 2530.

My god I was such an idiot. Gaming gods forgive me!
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Re: X68000 + Extron Emotia+ = Disappointment

Post by segasonicfan »

kamiboy wrote:I doubt any avid X68000 connoisseur could be happy with any of the half measure solution available. I wish I could go back to two years ago and kick my own ass before I sold that NEC XM29, not to mention that mint PVM 2530.

My god I was such an idiot. Gaming gods forgive me!
Being broke is a great motivator for being happy with half measures :)

I'm going to build that circuit and report back later. Though I have other projects first. The main reason I want to do it is that 31khz+ damages 15khz monitors. My friends went into protection mode the other day using my X68k and switching the sync too slowly.

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Re: X68000 + Extron Emotia+ = Disappointment

Post by kamiboy »

The thing about half measures is that they often fall short and leave you unsatisfied, prompting you to take a few more half measures in the future. But enough half measures may eventually end up costing you more in the long run.

In any regard, do report back when you have your setup up and running.
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Re: X68000 + Extron Emotia+ = Disappointment

Post by segasonicfan »

well shit. I got my Extron VSC500 in the mail today and its not working with the X68000. It works fine with a PC video card. I think the reason why is it communicate with the video card. I'm thinking it is looking at pins 12 or 15 here:
http://pinouts.ru/Video/VGA15_pinout.shtml
the manual says:
"D connector. Pins 4, 10, and 11 are internally grounded for ID bit termination"

I'm pretty sure X68000 PRO doesnt have the capability for this. What Ys is supposed to be in this pinout?
http://www.gamesx.com/wiki/doku.php?id= ... ese_rgb-15

I do not get +5v on that pin for my model. I don't think it's connected to anything...

Please help me, whoever has connected this to an emotia or any other extron gear. My cables are good since they work on my other scaler.

EDIT: even better, I grounded pins 5 & 10 & shield so now it just says signal out of range while flashing insane rates like 290khz :x

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Re: X68000 + Extron Emotia+ = Disappointment

Post by Fudoh »

Sorry to hear. The communication or +5V certainly aren't the reason though. I exclusively use BNC breakout cables for RGB signals and they really just carry R/G/B + sync(s). Everything else isn't passed on.
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Re: X68000 + Extron Emotia+ = Disappointment

Post by antron »

Dumb question but, have you tried running a high res game?
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Re: X68000 + Extron Emotia+ = Disappointment

Post by kamiboy »

Boot R-Type or Akumajo and report back.
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Re: X68000 + Extron Emotia+ = Disappointment

Post by segasonicfan »

Sorry to hear. The communication or +5V certainly aren't the reason though. I exclusively use BNC breakout cables for RGB signals and they really just carry R/G/B + sync(s). Everything else isn't passed on.
I don't get it then. The manual says it handles everything down to 24khz horizontal and 50hz vertical. I could try some fancy sync cleaner circuits like the ISL59885 / EL1883 and see what happens. But what would help is a pinout of a working Emotia X88k > VGA. I just want to make sure I got all the pins right. Here's mine:

1 - R
2 - G
3 - B
4 - NC
5 - GND
6 - GND
7 - GND
8 - GND
9 - +5v
10 - GND
11 - NC
12 - NC
13 - H
14 - V
15 - NC

I could also try an older "dumber" Extron maybe, if anyone can confirm a model that works that would be nice. Or upload pics of why the Emotia is not good, honestly its just the tearing that bothers me a lot.
Boot R-Type or Akumajo and report back.
OK so far I tried Bonanza Bros and Keeper and Chorensha and Direct X.

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Re: X68000 + Extron Emotia+ = Disappointment

Post by segasonicfan »

Dracula is also a no go. Tried all 3 video modes in chorensha with no luck :cry: The screen just blinks out of range.
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Re: X68000 + Extron Emotia+ = Disappointment

Post by antron »

It should say out of range whenever you are in low res mode. You could try your sync combiner.
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Re: X68000 + Extron Emotia+ = Disappointment

Post by segasonicfan »

antron wrote:It should say out of range whenever you are in low res mode. You could try your sync combiner.
sadly, I have. All the games I've been trying are hires :/ I'll try my JROK sync cleaner (which is just a 74 chip with EL1883) and see if that does anything, though my hopes aren't very high.

It just makes me wonder, if X86k video sync is this messy, are there people buying trisync monitors or other things with these results? what a money pit.

Found a link describing how to properly terminate the VGA here:
http://media.extron.com/download/files/ ... A_card.pdf
Looks like that isn't the issue.

EDIT: just bid on this and lost: http://www.ebay.com/itm/extron-emotia-x ... fresh=true
this is not my day for scan converters :/
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Re: X68000 + Extron Emotia+ = Disappointment

Post by kamiboy »

What was it that I said about half-measures?
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Re: X68000 + Extron Emotia+ = Disappointment

Post by Fudoh »

just bid on this and lost:
The Emotia Xtreme won't do anything different than the VSC500. It's a direct predecessor (two generations before). Same input / output handling, less filtering options. The Xtreme does not output 240p.

I would try to get an Extron RGB interface in between. If possible one with a LCD display to show the status specs.
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Re: X68000 + Extron Emotia+ = Disappointment

Post by segasonicfan »

!!!SUCCESS!!

The ISL59885 appears to have fixed the problem. That little chip never ceases to amaze me. I booted Dracula and Bonanza Bros, and it syncs perfectly :D :D
The colors are noticeably better than my TV-Ator Exec and the tearing is reduced by half. There is still some, but at least Castlevania is playable now, whereas before I just got a headache from it all.
One other benefit: it natively accepts and outputs either H+V or C Sync. Pretty nice! I haven't tried it all yet but I'm pretty sure it will go from split to composite sync too.

The adjustable zoom and scrolling + auto setup works amazing, and I can finally play games without any screen cutoff whatsoever. The zoom is a great feature for Bonanza Bros especially.

Downsides: sharpness is not spot on, even with the flicker adjustment set to 0. I wonder if one of the RGB units will help with this?
There is some minor artifacting, not super noticeable though. It does still tear slightly, which is the biggest let down. One day I want to see a 100% tear-free scandown converter.

So overall this appears a better setup than the emotia since you don't have any screen cutoff here.
What was it that I said about half-measures?
lol I was waiting for that. I'm happy with this, sure beats a $375 XPC-4 on my budget.

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Re: X68000 + Extron Emotia+ = Disappointment

Post by kamiboy »

375 ducats? Chump change, you are a high baller with that X68000, one of the 1%, go ahead treat yourself.
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Re: X68000 + Extron Emotia+ = Disappointment

Post by segasonicfan »

Fudoh wrote: I would try to get an Extron RGB interface in between. If possible one with a LCD display to show the status specs.
Which RGB interface units would you recommend? Would that get the clarity razor sharp / what are their benefits exactly?
Thanks for your amazing site btw, I was reading up a ton last night and learned a lot from it.

One other thing I forget to mention about this unit is that it is BRIGHT. I need to put some pull down resistors in there to get the levels better. Also not sure the artifacts are from the VSC, only one was noticeable and it might a X68k thing. I'll take some pics to show people if there is interest.

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Re: X68000 + Extron Emotia+ = Disappointment

Post by Fudoh »

The lack of sharpness is caused by the lack of proper pixel alignment. You can play with the vertical sizing to get better results, but a conversion from 384p to 480i isn't exactly easy.

I initially thought of the interface as a sync "rebuilder" between the X68k and the VSC. Now that you solved this problem (this RGB interface would likely have solved it as well), you can use an interface between the VSC and the monitor instead. This way you can try the pseudo-240p conversion and it will also bring the video levels down to standard peaks.
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Re: X68000 + Extron Emotia+ = Disappointment

Post by segasonicfan »

Fudoh wrote:The lack of sharpness is caused by the lack of proper pixel alignment. You can play with the vertical sizing to get better results, but a conversion from 384p to 480i isn't exactly easy.

I initially thought of the interface as a sync "rebuilder" between the X68k and the VSC. Now that you solved this problem (this RGB interface would likely have solved it as well), you can use an interface between the VSC and the monitor instead. This way you can try the pseudo-240p conversion and it will also bring the video levels down to standard peaks.

Got my Extron 109xi RGB interface off ebay but it was broken. Blown cap on the power board:
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b134/ ... e8455a.jpg

I was able to fix it by rebuilding the PSU...one of the weirdest ones I've ever seen actually. It does +/- 5v out from AC but the caps on the -5v line have the oppsite polarity markings on the PCB. Like it was misprinted (!) Then it had a strange 2W 20ohm bleeder resistor across the power lines (that overheated apparently). And then it won't power correctly without a load applied (voltage fluctuates). Removing that and replacing caps in the right polarity, and keeping it plugged into a load got it repaired.

This doesn't really do much, I gotta say, but it still is nice to have. I think you're right, it would have fixed the sync problem since it really is like a sync rebuilder. Putting it after the VSC500 is pointless- it doesnt change anything. Putting it before you can get a nice upgrade in clarity by increasing the gain on the Sync by 100% through the switch on the back. Makes the image just slightly less blurry. And that's pretty much it. I'm glad it was inexpensive :)

and I built this: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=51561
which completes my setup. I need to add one more 74hC4053 to switch the RGB lines but thats all. X68000 quality video is a go!!

On another interesting note, the VSC500 does accept 15khz signals. The image is pretty blurry when it does but maybe the RGB interface (or something other than a X68k) it will look better. Kinda cool it sees it.
The only bad thing I can really say is that you do still get frames dropped using it (as I think any converter) because the X68k outputs 384p 31khz / 54hz video (wtf?) very few monitors will know how to deal with that 100%. The VSC does a great job though esp. with all the adjustments.

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Re: X68000 + Extron Emotia+ = Disappointment

Post by leonk »

Sorry to bump an old thread .. but good info here that I'd like to build on.

How do you guys connect your X68000 to XRGB Mini? I assume SCART cable. Do you simply tie H and V together to give you C or is a chip used to properly connect them?

I got 2 compacts and an OG X68K. The SCART RGB cable I have that feeds into XRGB mini has no extra components, and H and V tied together. The OG looks and plays great. Both compacts show nothing. When I connect to OSSC (which shows input info on its LCD screen), it shows there is no SYNC when those lines are tied together in compact. But, if I use the standard X68K to VGA cable I made into the VGA port in the OSSC, it shows that it detects proper RGBHV @ 31khz.

What gives? Suggestions? Are extra components needed when building a proper X68K SCART / RGB cable into XRGB mini that will properly support all X68K models?
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Re: X68000 + Extron Emotia+ = Disappointment

Post by Fudoh »

there are passive sync combining circuits (I use one on a Dreamcast to Framemeister adapter), but with the multiple output timings you get from the X68k, why not invest $20-30 into an active sync converter ?
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