List of all the later produced 600 line PVMs

[andykara2003]

Hi Guys,

I've just bought a BVM 20E1E and am looking to buy a low use, late production 4:3 20" Sony 600 line PVM to complement the BVM - thereby having one razer sharp heavily scanlined monitor and one on the other end of the spectrum - gentler scanlines, a more cohesive picture - more akin to a consumer look but with professional style phospors and general quality.

Would anyone be able to give me any model numbers of the later 4:3 15Khz/31Hhz models, produced into the 2000's? And are there some are more common & that I'm more likely to find with lower usage/hours?

Cheers

[SunJammer]

the best match would probably be a PVM-20M2U since it has 600 TV lines, though the 20M4U (800 TV lines) seems to be more common

that's about it for late-model sony 20" 4:3 15khz CRTs as far as I know

[andy251203]

20L2 was also 600 lines. There were three series that are 600... PVM-1954Q is an older HR tube that is 600, after that came the 20M2 non-HR and finally they 20L2 non-HR.

[andykara2003]

Cheers for that - do you know how the 20L2MD differs from the 20M2U?

Edit: I've just noticed that there seems to be normal pitch & fine pitch variations in the 600 line models.

I guess that means that the fine pitch models will have thicker scanlines?

If that's the case, I'm looking for the normal, non-fine pitch models.

Can anyone say if I'm on track with this and which the non-fine pitch models are?

[Taiyaki]

From what I've seen the difference in scanlines between a 800 line pvm and my 800 line bvm is really not that different.

[22point8]

2044qm/2042qm/2043md are 600 lines, but not recent 1989-1994.

[fagin]

Finer pitch in reference to your screen size, can provide sharper and clearer detail.

[andykara2003]

I thought that might be the case - but I wonder if it might result in thicker scanlines as a result?

[fagin]

From what I've seen the difference in scanlines between a 800 line pvm and my 800 line bvm is really not that different.

Not sure that's relevant to the OP. His BVM is 1000 lines and he is looking for a PVM of 600.

[fagin]

I thought that might be the case - but I wonder if it might result in thicker scanlines as a result?

It's in relation the aperture grill.

[andykara2003]

Fudoh has just shed some light on this for me. He suggests that if I'm looking for mellow scanlines I might want to avoid PVMs in general as even the lower line ones have relatively strong scanlines as well - just paired with a way coarser dot matrix.

He suggests trying to find a monitor - as high-end as possible - but without a Trinitron/aperture grille tube - resulting in way less defined scanlines along with maximum control and quality.

So taking that into account does anyone know of really high end non Trinitron monitors, on equal par with the PVM' (or even BVMs) in no less than 20 inch and no more than 25 inch size?

[fagin]

Ikegami are shadowmask iirc.

[andykara2003]

Nice one - I was just checking those out actually. I think I've read somewhere that they're in the same class as the Sony stuff (maybe not the BVMs?)

Anyone know about these or the JVCs?

[fagin]

I know someone who has all three (inc. Sony). He rated them all.

[Taiyaki]

From what I've seen the difference in scanlines between a 800 line pvm and my 800 line bvm is really not that different.

Not sure that's relevant to the OP. His BVM is 1000 lines and he is looking for a PVM of 600.

My point was from what I've seen PVM's have strong scanlines and that imo Andy might not see much difference anyway.

[andykara2003]

Fudoh did mention that even the 600 line ones would be fairly scanlined so I'm looking at shadow mask monitors as well.

I've just seen that CMcK mentioned that the Ikegami are fairly scanlined. I'm wondering if finding a really high end 20-25" monitor of any type that has mellow scanlines might be an impossibility :/

If anyone knows of shadow masks in this size range that don't have strong scan lines I'd love to know. Maybe the JVCs fall into this category..

[cfx]

.

[22point8]

I think in 1996 Sony lost the patent for aperture grille technology and after that lots of manufacturers started using it.

[andykara2003]

Thanks very much for that cfx - that has cleared the fog a little for me actually. I had a PVM-2530 at one point but I found the scanlines even on that to be quite strong & didn't like the limited controls too much. The scanlines on the 20" version will be less so but I'd still like to look into a really high end 20" shadow mask. The small screen combined with the triad layout you mentioned might at least smooth things out a little while keeping the picture quality high.

I'll look into the Ikegami and JVCs - this JVC Fudoh pointed out looks quite promising:

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p1038438


It might just be the picture but the scanlines don't look prominent.

Edit: He showed some better pics further up the page - they do look quite a bit more prominent there.

[Fudoh]

I think that's a JVC BM-H2000xx

[andykara2003]

Yes it's a JVC BM-H2000PN-K. From the photos higher up the page in the thread, It does actually look quite a bit less harshly scanlined than the BVM pics I've seen. I don't know how good it is - maybe as good as a mid range PVM? I've sent Bancho a PM to ask him...

[cfx]

.

[andykara2003]

I thought of that a while back but I can't stand displays that have lost their sharpness due to wear etc. I'm basically looking for a really sharp display without prominent scanlines - I don't know if that's even a physical possibility!

Bancho got back to me about the JVC (which is 750 lines) & said the scanlines are quite pronounced which is quite telling as it's a shadow mask - so the 'shadow masks having mellower scanlines' theory might not be true for prefessional monitors.

He says he has the PVM-20M2E (the same one as SunJammer suggested in an earlier post) and says that although sitll apparent, the scanlines on this are less so than on his JVC which in turn would be less apparent than a BVM's I'd imagine.

He also suggested consumer Trinitrons which are even less scanlined. I have a few of these that have had very little use and have great pictures but I really wanted to pick up a professional monitor that bridges the gap between these and the BVM.

I'm leaning towards the 20M2E/U range now, I guess that might be a happy medium (unless anyone else has any more suggestions?). Am I right in guessing that there would be enough of a jump up from the consumer stuff to be significantly better than those?

SunJammer also said that in the 600 line later series there is the 20M2E/U and the 20L2E/U which are both non-HR following an older HR 600 line model. Does anyone know what HR means?

Also are there any other later 600 line models? I've seen that there is a PVM-20L2MD but I don't know what the MD means either...

Sorry - a lot of questions there!

[Xan]

I think it has been stated here before the M-series had cap issues?

MD means medical.

[Bancho]

I think that there isn't really a middle ground for what your seeking. Most PVM's are going to have that scanline look. I think its just the nature of the Display. I think even a 600 TVL screen has noticeable scanlines. I definatly saw it when I came from my consumer Trinitron to the PVM 20M2E

I think in a High end consumer unit might be the way to go but that's just my opinion.

Just as an example,

This is my 20" JVC. I think the scanlines are quite visible.

Spoiler

This is my 21" Trinitron KV-21LS30U

Spoiler

Scanlines are still faintly visible but not like a PVM. Looking back at the pictures, I have to admit the 21" Trinitron gives a fantastic picture and looks like it could be possibly the middle ground you are looking for. Unfortunately I don't have a RGB n64 so can't really show any screens from that but the SNES and the NES are running RGB signals and the Wii is component.

[Taiyaki]

So basically enhanced scanlines is a high end crt trait I guess. It seems Andy likes the side effects or flaws of consummer crt's and I can relate to that. But once your bvm comes in I think you won't be disappointed!

[andykara2003]

Wow thanks Bancho, really appreciate you going out of your way to do this! The pictures of both look great. I think you're right, I guess there isn't a scenario where you can have a 240p image on a professional monitor without strong scanlines. As Cfx says, that must be a result of the monitors being so accurate about how they draw their image vs a consumer model. Oh well, I've learned a lot from you guys in the process so thanks very much for the input

So in that case, I think you're right, the consumer trinitron is probably the display that will best fit what I'm looking for. Luckily I have some really decent low use ones that have RGB scart so they'll do for that.

Thanks Taiyaki I'm really looking forward to getting the BVM & seeing what the fuss is all about regardless of the scanline issue. I'm also interested in the BVM-D32E1WU, which looks awesome, especially as it's a bit larger, although not 4:3. I expect they're hard to come by and very expensive though.

[22point8]

Before I got my PVMs I had a LS30U, I certainly didn't notice scan lines when playing games. The stripe pitch is pretty big, probably 3 times the size of stripe pitch on my 2044QM. The white balance and colour calibrated well in the service menu:

[andykara2003]

Awesome - so do you callibrate professionally?

[22point8]

Awesome - so do you callibrate professionally?

Hobby, but I'm pretty good at it. The only thing mystifying me now is why both of my PVMs in composite, s-video or component have bad video decoding. My 2044QM in RGB measures R, G and B exactly as the EBU phosphors are rated. On the other inputs Red might be too bright, green too bright and blue too dark. I guess its the R-Y/B-Y settings, but I need an oscilloscope to adjust those, and that's beyond my abilities.