retro pc for dos games?

[Edmond Dantes]

That's not the one (did I imagine the whole thing? haha), but he does have active ebay sales. Unfortunately they're for more powerful chips, and I've read that for older 2d games you want to avoid anything past Pentium 1 because of CPU timing issues.

Not necessarily true. You can get around those timing issues in a number of ways--Bret Johnson's Slowdown is one solution on a pure DOS machine. Another is Dosbox, which I use despite having a Windows 98 machine, because it provides additional benefits (being able to emulate a tandy, for example, allows Pool of Radiance and various other games such as Thexder to have better sound effects and music).

Awhile ago I built my own oldschool gaming PC, which I call Mazinkaiser. It's specs:
* 700mhz AMD K6 chip (this will provide a problem if I ever want to play Wrath of Earth because that game uses a feature specific to Intel chips, but Dosbox may be able to get around that, or if it can't, whatever).
* 512mb of RAM
* video card: Voodoo 3 2000 (Voodoo 3 supports all major video acceleration models popular at the time, including Glide, whereas most only support Direct3D and OpenGL, and some older ones support Glide but not OpenGL)
* Soundcard: Soundblaster 16 in an ISA slot (this is important because PCI slot sound cards are a pain to get working in DOS)
* a case that is built for venting and cooling because overheating was the single biggest problem all my old gaming computers had.

Mazinkaiser so far has been able to play every game I ran on it unless the game itself was glitched or was from a rotten source (like a degraded floppy). If you wanna see the machine, complete with naming every component, here (the white machine you see at the beginning I just call "the old white box," but sometimes I retroactively dub it "Mazinger")

EDIT: Saw you asked about Dosbox. Really the only "complication" about it is needing to create a new config file for virtually every game (or series of games) you own, and even then that's not so hard. I often just copy-paste configs, edit then rename the copy, then copy-paste the shortcut that loads a config and change the command line so it loads a different one.

One thing though: on Windows 7 on up, you want to create C:\DOSBOXCONF directories and link to those. By default Dosbox on Windows 7 puts confs in some retardedly long series of subdirectories which no human being can ever remember, so you wanna change that fast even for just the bare-bones default one.

[shmuppyLove]

Really the only "complication" about it is needing to create a new config file for virtually every game (or series of games) you own, and even then that's not so hard. I often just copy-paste configs, edit then rename the copy, then copy-paste the shortcut that loads a config and change the command line so it loads a different one.

I've seen GUI frontends that simplify this process dramatically.

http://dfendreloaded.sourceforge.net/

[Edmond Dantes]

Yeah, but even without those its easy as fuck (and if you get a Win98 PC, the frontends might not work on that OS).

(Why would you want a Win98 PC? Because Dosbox only handles DOS games... there's still plenty of Windows games that basically are unplayable except on the actual systems they were intended for. Basically, any Windows 98 game that requires hardware accelerated video cards but isn't compatible with Windows XP will require a real Windows 98 system).

By the way, the OP mentioned being into the AD&D Gold Box games. He should also check out a collection called the AD&D Masterpiece Collection. I just got that today and the two Ravenloft games are fucking awesome.

... Maybe we should make a topic about RPGs for MS-DOS.

[drauch]

He should also check out a collection called the AD&D Masterpiece Collection

Nice, never realized these were in a collection. I've been really interested in the Dark Sun one lately. I ran a campaign a few years back in Dark Sun and really enjoyed the dismal setting. Great change from the whimsical happy world of a lot of D&D stuff.

[Specineff]

If anybody wants it, I landed an Celeron system "designed" for Windows ME. Just pay the shipping for the board with CPU, RAM and HDD, or the whole (kinda heavy for a mini-case) thing. Apologies for not posting it on the trading station, but I felt it's more proper to do so here before I junk it.

[Edmond Dantes]

Both the Dark Sun games are also in the Masterpiece Collection.

Actually, here's a full list of what's in the AD&D Masterpiece Collection:

Dark Sun 1 and 2
Ravenloft 1 and 2
the one and only Al-Qadim game
and Menzoberranzan, which is yet another Forgotten Realms game, except this one uses the same 1st-person free-roaming engine as Ravenloft. Also Drizzt can join your party if you're into him.

It also contains PDFs of the original manuals and cluebooks that these games came with.

I gave Dark Sun 1 a test run, and... well, its interesting. I had heard people bitch that it's more "console-ish" but it really isn't. The battle system is still strategic, like the gold box games, but in presentation feels closer to D&D: Warriors of the Eternal Sun (however, you can still attack by moving into enemies, like in Gold Box)

Al-Qadim.... is a top-view action-RPG that would've fit right in alongside games like Beyond Oasis or Crusader of Centy. It really doesn't feel like a D&D game at all, though this may be its greatest strength. From what I understand, the only reason they didn't make more was because of PC Gamer elitism around the "consolishness" of this installment.

Ravenloft and Menzo, as I said, are free-roaming 3D... think Elder Scrolls Arena, except you have a party. The controls take some getting used to (they're exactly the same as Dungeon Master or Eye of the Beholder, just in a free-roaming environment, although you can actually enable a mode that simulates the step-based movement of those games if you wish) but once you do, they're--or at least Ravenloft is--a blast (admittedly I never got into Menzoberranzan, but that's probably just because Forgotten Realms is such an overused setting and I don't really know or care who Drizzt Do'Urden is)

.... And yeah, someone should probably start a DOS-era RPGs thread. Or we can just take possession of this thread.

[ZellSF]

I think it's important to point out that a majority of old Windows games do work perfectly even on newer Windows versions.

Try them and ask for help if they don't work before wasting time and money on another piece of hardware you might not even need.

Personally I haven't found a single game I want to play that doesn't work perfectly in Windows 8.

I know this thread was originally about DOS games, but someone brought it up and I really see no reason for most people to get an old Windows PC. DOS is sort of understandable because then it's emulation vs hardware.

[drauch]

Cool dude. Probably the same reason people like playing PCBs instead of ports. Also, you're wrong.

If you want to waste time, then getting games to run flawlessly on a modern OS is your cup of tea. Between patches, creating files, editing others--that's the definition of wasting time, all so you can play them with distorted ARs on 22" LCDs. Funny, too, because you can basically find an old PC for next to nothing or free. Upgrading it further to run higher-demanding games or for the desired sound card or CPU or whatever, then that's part of the fun, the hobbyist.

What about people who don't have Windows 8, the purportedly perfect OS for running games? Sounds like more money to me. Ha, I remember years back running Thief Gold, System Shock 2, Grim Fandango on Vista--such a fucking nightmare.

This is a forum about old games and with one of the most dedicated sub-forums to old hardware you can find, not fucking Kotaku.

[ZellSF]

Cool dude. Probably the same reason people like playing PCBs instead of ports. Also, you're wrong.

PCB vs ports can be very functionally different. That's not the case for running old Windows games on newer Windows versions in which you're running the exact same game.

If you want to waste time, then getting games to run flawlessly on a modern OS is your cup of tea. Between patches, creating files, editing others--that's the definition of wasting time, all so you can play them with distorted ARs on 22" LCDs. Funny, too, because you can basically find an old PC for next to nothing or free. Upgrading it further to run higher-demanding games or for the desired sound card or CPU or whatever, then that's part of the fun, the hobbyist.

Dismissing me using some time (and I usually don't, fixing most games is a matter of minutes) as a pointless and claiming your own waste of time is perfectly fun hobby stuff... When we're both messing with technical stuff trying to get something to work. I really don't see your point.

Also distorted ARs on 22" LCDs? Modern computers have aspect ratio control in GPU drivers, modern computers still support CRTs and if you're concerned about image quality then the higher resolutions, higher framerates, texture filtering and antialiasing afforded by more modern GPUs wins out easily (all optional, of course).

What about people who don't have Windows 8, the purportedly perfect OS for running games? Sounds like more money to me. Ha, I remember years back running Thief Gold, System Shock 2, Grim Fandango on Vista--such a fucking nightmare.

So your experiences with running old games on newer OSes is 7 years old? You use 7 year old sources and I'm the Kotaku writer? Seriously?

Vista was a huge update to Windows, it broke compatibility in a lot of ways. Most of which has been since been resolved by community fixes. The launch of Vista was literally the worst time to try to get old games working and even then, a vast majority (including Thief and System Shock 2, no clue about Grim Fandango) still worked with simple fixes that were just a Google search away...

This is a forum about old games and with one of the most dedicated sub-forums to old hardware you can find, not fucking Kotaku.

I like old hardware as much as the rest, but I'm not going to recommend people buy stuff without any reason at all. Which was really all that I was saying, no clue why you're taking it so badly.

[Edmond Dantes]

He does have a point though: Some of us don't have Windows 8. And buying a new operating system is pricey, usually entailing that you buy a PC with it pre-loaded just to get the best deal you can. In all honesty, if you're gonna spend money on a new OS that might be compatible, you might as well be willing to spend money on an older machine and OS that will be compatible.

I personally have Windows 7, and I can guarantee most of the Windows 98-era games I wanted to play did NOT work out of the box. Many didn't even work after applying tweaks and community fixes. In fact the solution I found with consistent results involved running Windows 98 on a virtual machine, and even that has drawbacks (like that VMs don't emulate 3D accelerator cards yet, so you're stuck with software render... and if the game REQUIRES Direct3D, OpenGL or Glide, you're screwed).

I've heard WINE can handle most of this stuff, but my experience with Wine has been almost as headache-inducing as trying to run older games in Windows 7.

[ZellSF]

XP / Vista / 7 / 8 are mostly the same in terms of compatibility. Windows 8 is actually a pretty significant drop in compatibility (due to dropping support for native 8/16-bit color). I just recommend 8 because I don't want people opting for a outdated OS given a choice.

Those 8/16-bit color issues are mostly fixable if you're wondering.

I personally have Windows 7, and I can guarantee most of the Windows 98-era games I wanted to play did NOT work out of the box. Many didn't even work after applying tweaks and community fixes.

I didn't say all titles worked, I said to try the titles you want to play on a modern OS before wasting money on outdated hardware (that might very well end up playing the games worse than a modern computer would).

Then I said to ask for help, because that question and answer will be helpful to others trying to play the same game.

If that fails then it's obviously very reasonable to buy the hardware required to play the games you want.

That said, most titles not working sounds very weird. What titles did you have problems with?

[Jonathan Ingram]

Also distorted ARs on 22" LCDs? Modern computers have aspect ratio control in GPU drivers, modern computers still support CRTs and if you're concerned about image quality then the higher resolutions, higher framerates, texture filtering and antialiasing afforded by more modern GPUs wins out easily (all optional, of course).

It's actually amazing how behind the times some people are. GPUs have had AR and scaling options since forever and even on older VGA-connected LCDs it was possible to get old games to output with correct AR thanks to handy software programs like PowerStrip. It's not necessary at all to cling to outdated hardware when there's a more convenient modern option available. Seriously, folks: DO NOT HOARD OLD SHIT. It felt incredibly liberating when my old(but still perfectly working) Mitsubishi CRT and a couple of old PC rigs went straight into the trash yard.

[Obiwanshinobi]

All upscaling from 640x480 and lower I saw this far on LCDs looked worse to me than raw resolutions on CRTs.
(Upscaling looks better on CRTs too, if you care to know; on my current desktop monitor I don't even find much use for fake scanlines in lo-res games as in 640x480 its native scanlines are visible enough.)
The first Silent Hill looking any good in high resolutions - now THAT would be liberating. And you know it's not the only one.

[Edmond Dantes]

While I agree people shouldn't hoard, I would hope those old computers and monitors were actually broken/not working before you threw them out. It annoys me when something that still could be used is just thrown away.

As for titles I had trouble running, the last Win98 games I remember trying to play on a modern system were Command & Conquer 95 (I hear the freeware download is patched though, but this was before I knew about that and I was trying to use actual discs), Amber Journeys Beyond, and Resident Evil 2 Platinum. The solutions that were available at the time involved lots of jumping through hoops and even then, still didn't usually work.

In addition, every time I look at another Windows 98 game I think of adding to my collection.... well, back when all I had was a Windows 7 laptop, I actually would usually pass on such games because there was always the thought that such a game would be a hassle to run and even then, might not work at all. Now that I have Mazinkaiser though, I buy Windows 98 games without worry because I know that they'll run... and if they don't, then there's something seriously wrong.

[Obiwanshinobi]

To be fair, finding a good home for a CRT may be nigh on impossible even in a big city.

[Jonathan Ingram]

All upscaling from 640x480 and lower I saw this far on LCDs looked worse to me than raw resolutions on CRTs.

GPU scaling: Enabled
Maintain aspect ratio: Disabled
Scale image to full panel size: Disabled
Use centered timings: Enabled

Will make any resolution look native(with black borders around the image).

While I agree people shouldn't hoard, I would hope those old computers and monitors were actually broken/not working before you threw them out. It annoys me when something that still could be used is just thrown away.

IBM 486 DX4 and Pentium I 166Mhz, both in perfect condition. There's nothing they could do that my two well-maintained modern WinXP and Win7 systems can't, so I figured I was just being a retrograde keeping all that stuff around. A Neo-Geo MVS cab that I'd got for free when a local cinema was getting rid of its inventory went into the same trash yard.

[ZellSF]

As for titles I had trouble running, the last Win98 games I remember trying to play on a modern system were Command & Conquer 95 (I hear the freeware download is patched though, but this was before I knew about that and I was trying to use actual discs), Amber Journeys Beyond, and Resident Evil 2 Platinum. The solutions that were available at the time involved lots of jumping through hoops and even then, still didn't usually work.

C&C95 should have worked back then (a bit unstable though, occasional crashes), no clue why you didn't get it working. In 2010 cnc-ddraw was released and today the game runs absolutely perfectly. Even multiplayer works.

Resident Evil 2 actually ran out of the box on my Win7/Nvidia PC. Sadly it had performance issues on my Win8/Nvidia PC (16-bit color: never good). It looks like a terrible port in every single way though and I would much rather opt for the Dreamcast version (I would even choose emulating the Dreamcast version over playing the PC version on native hardware). That it needs FAT32 for saves makes me very worried over how finicky the save system is on any setup.

Amber: Journeys Beyond. Well I just looked at "Engine" on Wikipedia and saw Macromedia Director and yeah that game will probably never run well on a modern PC (might run in a VM though).

[ED-057]

DO NOT HOARD OLD SHIT.

Fuck you. I'll hoard as much old shit as I want :p

[drauch]

IBM 486 DX4 and Pentium I 166Mhz, both in perfect condition. There's nothing they could do that my two well-maintained modern WinXP and Win7 systems can't, so I figured I was just being a retrograde keeping all that stuff around. A Neo-Geo MVS cab that I'd got for free when a local cinema was getting rid of its inventory went into the same trash yard.

Such a minimalist. We're all so impressed.

[drauch]

So your experiences with running old games on newer OSes is 7 years old? You use 7 year old sources and I'm the Kotaku writer? Seriously?

Vista was a huge update to Windows, it broke compatibility in a lot of ways. Most of which has been since been resolved by community fixes. The launch of Vista was literally the worst time to try to get old games working and even then, a vast majority (including Thief and System Shock 2, no clue about Grim Fandango) still worked with simple fixes that were just a Google search away...

My original quote was "years back," so yes, I was using Vista 7 years ago. Kind of calling bullshit on your omniscient "almost every game works in a one minute google search" claim. On some PCs it'll work like a jiffy, agreed there, but sometimes it takes a good bit of tinkering and fucking around to get games working on certain rigs, even with modern crap. I kind of thought this was a widely accepted woe of PC gaming, but I guess I'm just a big retard that don't know how to use that there Google device.

[Jonathan Ingram]

Such a minimalist. We're all so impressed.

Thank you. I pride myself on being one.

I kind of thought this was a widely accepted woe of PC gaming, but I guess I'm just a big retard that don't know how to use that there Google device.

No, not a retard. Just ignorant and unrepentant.

[ZellSF]

My original quote was "years back," so yes, I was using Vista 7 years ago. Kind of calling bullshit on your omniscient "almost every game works in a one minute google search" claim.

I'm making that claim based on trying 100s of games myself and finding almost no unsolvable issues, I make that claim based on the fact that no one I've talked to claimining compatibility issues have even been able to provide a small list of games they failed to run. I make that claim based on seeing very few requests for help getting old games to work getting unresolved on various forums.

And you're calling bullshit... because you just know I'm wrong?

On some PCs it'll work like a jiffy, agreed there, but sometimes it takes a good bit of tinkering and fucking around to get games working on certain rigs, even with modern crap.

Not saying you made this claim, but reading this sentence I just want to point out: PCs aren't special unique snowflakes, if you match OS version, GPU manufacturer and GPU driver version compatibility with old games should be the same. There's a lot of "special snowflakes" who either have background software interrupting or running some precracked or prepatched version of the games they are trying to run though. If you ever can't get a game working while others are on similiar setups think "what am I doing wrong", not "my PC is special and unique"

I kind of thought this was a widely accepted woe of PC gaming, but I guess I'm just a big retard that don't know how to use that there Google device.

Console gamers widely accept that PC gaming is hard, which is why they're console gamers. PC gamers not so much.

Google is important, but as I've tried to stress so is asking for help. That's actually adding information to Google. Information that others can use in the future to figure out the best solution for playing the games we like. I want other people to experience my favorite games, and I know most people will not if I tell them it means getting Windows 98 era hardware because everyone just gave up on running them on newer computers.

[Edmond Dantes]

IBM 486 DX4 and Pentium I 166Mhz, both in perfect condition. There's nothing they could do that my two well-maintained modern WinXP and Win7 systems can't, so I figured I was just being a retrograde keeping all that stuff around. A Neo-Geo MVS cab that I'd got for free when a local cinema was getting rid of its inventory went into the same trash yard.

Damn. I might've taken that MVS cab off your hands. Or those comps if one of them had a working 5" floppy drive.

Then again, this kind of stuff is why dumpster-divers exist.

Resident Evil 2 actually ran out of the box on my Win7/Nvidia PC. Sadly it had performance issues on my Win8/Nvidia PC (16-bit color: never good). It looks like a terrible port in every single way though and I would much rather opt for the Dreamcast version (I would even choose emulating the Dreamcast version over playing the PC version on native hardware). That it needs FAT32 for saves makes me very worried over how finicky the save system is on any setup.

Yeah honestly, even on the system where RE2P worked it had problems playing back the FMV sequences, so it really is better to just play the Dreamcast port, which is supposed to have all the features the PC one does with none of the fucknuttery.

Amber: Journeys Beyond. Well I just looked at "Engine" on Wikipedia and saw Macromedia Director and yeah that game will probably never run well on a modern PC (might run in a VM though).

I can confirm that it DOES work in a Virtual PC, since that's ultimately how it happened for me.

Oddly enough, I've heard some games have issues with VPCs... Mechwarrior 2 being one game I've heard will go fucknuts. But it also has community fixes to run on modern setups, allow you to freely tinker with your controls, enable new aspect ratios, and make you coffee to boot. The problem is that Mech2 (and its expansions) came in like five different variants and some are better than others. I think I saw a forum (mech2.org?) that had more info.

But like I said, these days I don't worry. Don't worry, be happy!

[Jonathan Ingram]

The shipping would've cost you a fortune though. I'm sure you can find any of these much cheaper locally. Also, the MVS board was faulty. I don't know exactly what the problem was, but games would freeze every ten minutes or so.

[drauch]

My original quote was "years back," so yes, I was using Vista 7 years ago. Kind of calling bullshit on your omniscient "almost every game works in a one minute google search" claim.

I'm making that claim based on trying 100s of games myself and finding almost no unsolvable issues, I make that claim based on the fact that no one I've talked to claimining compatibility issues have even been able to provide a small list of games they failed to run. I make that claim based on seeing very few requests for help getting old games to work getting unresolved on various forums.

And you're calling bullshit... because you just know I'm wrong?

I was calling bullshit on the claim that it's a typically fast and an easy resolve, and the amount of PC games out there that people don't give a hoot about is quite enormous, which would lead me to imagine that not every game is going to be a minute long google search, a quick change, and presto: runs perfect. Partly my fault for looking completely ignorant as if I don't still play older games on a modern OS--which I do, just not as frequently anymore because I typically find it to be a pain in the ass when I can just pop it into my 98 machine and not have any troubles at all. I'd rather just have something take up a few feet in a closet than wade through forums and troubleshoot than waste my time, which I imagine is why the OP asked the initial question in the first place. Trust me, I believe you get games working just fine, and I commend your obvious knowledge. Not trying to say that any of this is too hard, just annoying.

Admittedly, the thing I wasn't aware of was GPU scaling. Funny, as I've even noticed it, so yeah, made an ass of myself there. Caught up in the moment of pointless bickering! I dunno, I personally just get a kick out of messing with old hardware and having an old setup. I've got the room for it and enjoy it, but I understand why others don't want a million computers everywhere.

[Obiwanshinobi]

GPU upscaling has been also standard on consoles at least since PS2. I think Jak & Daxter and Maximo are upscaled [GT4 (NTSC) and Virtual-On (Sega Ages) scale up to 1080i].

[ZellSF]

My original quote was "years back," so yes, I was using Vista 7 years ago. Kind of calling bullshit on your omniscient "almost every game works in a one minute google search" claim.

I'm making that claim based on trying 100s of games myself and finding almost no unsolvable issues, I make that claim based on the fact that no one I've talked to claimining compatibility issues have even been able to provide a small list of games they failed to run. I make that claim based on seeing very few requests for help getting old games to work getting unresolved on various forums.

And you're calling bullshit... because you just know I'm wrong?

I was calling bullshit on the claim that it's a typically fast and an easy resolve, and the amount of PC games out there that people don't give a hoot about is quite enormous, which would lead me to imagine that not every game is going to be a minute long google search, a quick change, and presto: runs perfect. Partly my fault for looking completely ignorant as if I don't still play older games on a modern OS--which I do, just not as frequently anymore because I typically find it to be a pain in the ass when I can just pop it into my 98 machine and not have any troubles at all. I'd rather just have something take up a few feet in a closet than wade through forums and troubleshoot than waste my time, which I imagine is why the OP asked the initial question in the first place. Trust me, I believe you get games working just fine, and I commend your obvious knowledge. Not trying to say that any of this is too hard, just annoying.

Admittedly, the thing I wasn't aware of was GPU scaling. Funny, as I've even noticed it, so yeah, made an ass of myself there. Caught up in the moment of pointless bickering! I dunno, I personally just get a kick out of messing with old hardware and having an old setup. I've got the room for it and enjoy it, but I understand why others don't want a million computers everywhere.

Late reply, but people being reasonable on internet forums usually leave me in a shock state for a week or so.

Of course you raise an interesting point in that the more obscure a game is, the less the likely it is that someone made a workaround specifically for it and you have to rely on generic workarounds (I still say that will get most stuff running).

Other side of the equation is also true, the more popular a game is the better it'll run on modern computers. Command & Conquer was mentioned in this thread for example and I'm currently playing it in widescreen with full choice of how I want to do stretching (bilinear or linear, pixel double or AR correction) and it runs absolutely flawlessly. System Shock 2 was also mentioned and that has an unofficial fan patch that brings back surround sound, supports widescreen at whatever resolution you want, better texture filtering, UI scaling and all sorts of nice stuff.

Wipeout XL, a much more obscure game on the other hand, works perfectly but crashes occasionally and has some very minor texture glitches: no one's going to fix that. It's not a huge issue, but the games lack of popularity also means it will take a long time before it's fixed.

Now for why I was a bit aggressive, the whole "PC games are too hard" is a myth that REALLY bothers PC gamers because it's usually a myth people believe in and take for granted because they don't actually want to try to do something. So I really push for people to actually try stuff over believing the myth and giving up before starting. This really applies to all facets of PC gaming, not just running old games.