Hi, this is a bit of an ask here but I wondered if there's anyone here with a 19/20 inch Sony BVM monitor who might be willing to take & upload some 720p/1080p video of a 3D N64 game on an RGB modded N64?
I'm thinking of buying a BVM in the near future but I have doubts about how it would look with the N64 due to the nature of it's output. Some close up high res video would really shed some light on this for me (and hopefully be of interest to other people as well).
I think 2D games look really good on a BVM - just a different style than we were used to back in the day. I might have to pick one up regardless.. I'm really interested about the first generation of 3D games though - I have a feeling that that maybe PS1 games will still look reasonably good because even though the 3D graphics were very low res & pixellated, the pixels were relatively defined (compared to the N64) as there was no anti aliasing.
Possibly, because of the N64's over the top antialiasing, one of the PVMs with less lines (600) might be a better fit for the N64. The trouble is that it's impossible to really tell without buying one of each! (Hence the thread).
Thanks for you comment though Shaun, you've been a great help in my search for CRTs & I've ended up with a few very good ones (amongst many more crap ones I had to tip!).
I personally have a problem with low-res 3D graphics and heavy scanlines. With the N64 running on the Framemeister I prefer 1080p without scanlines. On the PS1 it really depends on the game: for Jumping Flash for example I prefer 1080p without scanlines, while for Ridge Racer I prefer light scanlines.
I had a look at your youtube vid on the Sony. It does look really good - and no scanlines on 240p 3D I just couldn't go as small as 14" though. Fudoh confirmed my suspicions, I've decided to end my CRT search now & be happy with my collection. My KV-25X5U & Loewe contur 2063 both have super low hours & great image quality - and I have enough backups to last. I'm very grateful to this forum for all the info & instruction during my CRT hunt.
Taiyaki wrote:Why would 240P look better without scanlines? Imo any resolution under HD looks better with scanlines.
It's only the fully 3D 240p console games I'm talking about. To me, anything other than light scanlines looks out of place with these (although I'm not a fan of line doubling these games either). 2D 240p content is much more forgiving towards heavy scanlines IMO.
andykara2003 wrote:PS. Are you saying that you think all 480p content looks better with scanlines?
Imo when it comes down to 480p it's a matter of preference. I think the PS2 with component looks great on an LCD but in general to me games pre last gen consoles look better on a crt and good scanlines and resolution help a lot and the BVM delivers on those (not to mention amazing colors).
I'll have to try the N64 some more. If I can I'll try to get some video footage of it on my bvm but from what I remember my camera doesn't shoot the interlaced footage very well.
andykara2003 wrote:PS. Are you saying that you think all 480p content looks better with scanlines?
Imo when it comes down to 480p it's a matter of preference. I think the PS2 with component looks great on an LCD but in general to me games pre last gen consoles look better on a crt and good scanlines and resolution help a lot and the BVM delivers on those (not to mention amazing colors).
I'll have to try the N64 some more. If I can I'll try to get some video footage of it on my bvm but from what I remember my camera doesn't shoot the interlaced footage very well.
I was only talking about CRTs. 480p won't display on the 20G1U you have. To display 480p on a CRT you need a 480p compatible one and even then you won't get the 240p scanlines we're talking about without additional equipment. Also N64 games are mostly in 240p not interlaced.
andykara2003 wrote:PS. Are you saying that you think all 480p content looks better with scanlines?
Imo when it comes down to 480p it's a matter of preference. I think the PS2 with component looks great on an LCD but in general to me games pre last gen consoles look better on a crt and good scanlines and resolution help a lot and the BVM delivers on those (not to mention amazing colors).
I'll have to try the N64 some more. If I can I'll try to get some video footage of it on my bvm but from what I remember my camera doesn't shoot the interlaced footage very well.
I was only talking about CRTs. 480p won't display on the 20G1U you have. To display 480p on a CRT you need a 480p compatible one and even then you won't get the 240p scanlines we're talking about without additional equipment. Also N64 games are mostly in 240p not interlaced.
Sorry I meant to say 480p on an lcd vs 480i on a good crt. I've never used a crt which had 480p so I don't know how that compares. I know that on an lcd interlaced just looks dreadful but imo on a crt I would have a hard time seeing the difference but again I'm just guessing since I haven't used a PVM or Trinitron which supported progressive scan.
You can't just generalize all VGA CRTs like that... on those with a maximum resolution of 1920x1440 or even 2048x1536 a 480p signal will be displayed with rather strong scanlines, but this might not exactly be the case for some early 90s monitor where 640x480 was more the absolute top of the line.
Xan wrote:You can't just generalize all VGA CRTs like that... on those with a maximum resolution of 1920x1440 or even 2048x1536 a 480p signal will be displayed with rather strong scanlines, but this might not exactly be the case for some early 90s monitor where 640x480 was more the absolute top of the line.
I think he's talking about a monitor that has a maximum resolution of VGA which is 640x480, not any monitor that happens to have a VGA socket.
Xan wrote:You can't just generalize all VGA CRTs like that... on those with a maximum resolution of 1920x1440 or even 2048x1536 a 480p signal will be displayed with rather strong scanlines, but this might not exactly be the case for some early 90s monitor where 640x480 was more the absolute top of the line.
I don't remember this effect myself, but it's probably quite true.
However it's important not to forget the main reasons for going with 480p and a CRT - you want high motion fluidity (none of that jagged interlaced panning nonsense, where solid surfaces moving horizontally appear sawtoothed) along with the quick response of a CRT.
If we step back to a standard N64, which only has 240p / 480i capability, the question might become "how would it look linedoubled?" I have to admit that I don't know. Ideally someday there will be an encoder replacement for the N64. Basically whatever Calpis says here.
It looks blocky and too pixellated (to me). I prefer light scanlines only for the N64. Also for me, 480p looks much nicer on a good CRT than a flatscreen TV.
I would say for light scanlines a consumer set is probably best. In my experience those can have a lot of blooming unless you run really low contrast settings, masking the scanlines a fair bit. I run my BVM on full contrast and there is minor blooming visible, but the scanlines still come out quite strong (which is great for me).
There is also that unique-ish subpixel structure that FD Trinitrons seem to have...
When you run it high contrast you mean high brightness right? On old CRT's and it appears BVM are no exception contrast setting actually affects brightness and brightness contrast. Maybe someone with more knowledge can explain why this happened in the first place but it's always been that way since I was a kid I believe.
Xan, how high do you pump the contrast setting? Above the standard 1000? Does the screen ever overload?
My BVM is actually a PVM w/ SDI, so I can only speak for that and not for "real" BVMs. On my BVM-1454D I just max out the contrast knob because the image is somewhat dull on medium settings, presumably due to wear. On max contrast the colors come out nicer and the image is a lot brighter. Not sure what you mean by overload, haven't noticed any adverse effects so far for a year now.
The contrast/chroma/brightness thing I've been wondering about, too. I bumped chroma up just a bit for the NES. That knob only affects the composite/S-Video inputs.
I see. I wonder how different the picture is between PVM and BVM's. I would think my BVM G model with only 800 lines probably uses the same or a similar screen to pvm's with 800 lines.
Looking very closely I find that yes the 3D games do give mixed results with the thick scanlines of the BVM. I can see why Andy was concerned about this. But to be honest from normal viewing distance (maybe 3 feet on a 20 inch) you don't notice any negative impact from their presence. Up close however they do seem strong.
I had read of an external device that could increase blooming and reduce scanlines, maybe even several of these devices exist, might be something Andy would be interested in.
Thanks Taiyaki It's not possible to increase blooming on the BVMs though as the lack of bleeding/blooming is intrinsic to the display. Not a problem though, I've decided to give my search up completely & enjoy what I have now.
andykara2003 wrote:Thanks Taiyaki It's not possible to increase blooming on the BVMs though as the lack of bleeding/blooming is intrinsic to the display. Not a problem though, I've decided to give my search up completely & enjoy what I have now.
What do you use right now? I wonder there might be some consumer crt's that take scart rgb but they might be super rare.
I have quite a few consumer CRT's, all with RGB scart (most of our TVs had RGB luckily). They are all very good & hardly used (Sonys and Loewes) so I probably couldn't do too much better for lightly scanlined N64 displays as it is. I just had an interest in the BVMs because of they're so good but I mostly play N64 & Gamecube so after the confirmation from Fudoh I can relax & forget about it. I used to enjoy the researching & hunting but I'm tired of it now. I have a great collection of consoles, games & displays now & I'm going to just enjoy them & forget about the intricacies of displays, connectors, modding etc.
I won't be posting much here anymore. I'm extremely grateful to Fudoh, Fagin, yourself Blizzz - and others for everything so thanks very much guys
I like the look of consumer crt's, the blooming, bleeding etc. I can completely understand the love for consumer crt's. Even with all those defects they're the best representation of what we grew up with, imo BVM's (and probably PVM's) just gently bridge the gap between what we used to be accustomed to and what we're used to now with sharp, color accurate and near perfect geometry over consumer crt's. Still got to love classic crt's.
