X68000 + Extron Emotia+ = Disappointment

[kamiboy]

Ever since I got my X68000 Compact IV I've been searching for the ideal display solution for it, short of importing an original X68000 trisync monitor from Japan.

You would think a PVM L5 with its ability to sync both 15 and 31khz would be the best match for this system, alas it is not so. You see The X68000 has a tendency towards odd video signals and the PVM does not like how most 31khz and even some 15khz games display themselves.

I've also been also been trying to tackle the criminal lack of 15khz modes in games that sorely need one, such as Akumajo Dracula, Gradius II, Parodius etc. etc.

Thus I decided an Extron Emotia would be the best way forward. I bought a Plus model and connected everything up. At first things looked promising, 31khz games that exhibited odd shadows when displayed on the L5 were now showing up more clear and with scanlines.

Alas upon closer scrutiny it was revealed that the oddness of X68000 signals make them an ill match even for the Emotia. First thing I noticed upon closer scrutiny was that the graphics lacked a bit of clarity and the colours were suboptimal. Some games even showed noise like artefacts in certain colours, such as Parodius in the blue gradient of the sky.

But what was even more disappointing was the fact that the bottom of the display area was cut off by quite a few lines and when things moved vertically where was what appeared to be scaling artefacts. Mind you the cropping of the picture has nothing to do with under/overscan settings, it is just not there.

I assume this is all caused by the Emotia not being able to chew on the odd resolution of the 31khz signal from the X68000. Also, to add insult to injury, the emotia does not seem to be able to pass through native 15khz signals so every time you switch to such a one you will need to circumvent the Emotia.

Let this be warning to all X68000 owners who are thinking of the same.

One day, if I can be arsed, I'll try connecting the X68000 via the XRGB mini, but since I do not like the aesthetics of pixel graphics on anything but a CRT I doubt I will want to play that way. I should mention that a plain old PC CRT was more than capable of syncing the odd 31khz signals form the X68000, but then you would need to switch between that and a 15khz display every time you switch games.

I suppose you could try a 15khz->31khz scaler, but knowing how odd the signals of the X68000 are I suspect that option may well be a failure as well.

[SGGG2]

Yeah, I had an Emotia and was disappointed as well. The resulting image looked like a cheap CRT. There's a reason for this however:

So, let's focus on the tweaking first: as said above, both the UVC and the Emotia average two input lines into a single output line, but unfortunately they start with line 2 and merge it with line 3. If you imagine a classic low-res titles running line-doubled on a 360 (imagine Mushihimesama Futari or ESPGaluda II), lines 1 and 2 are identical and so are 3 and 4 (and so on). Merging lines 2 and 3 on the other hand, causes a certain bluriness and lack of sharpness. Many titles (like Futari) can be adjusted with in-game options: by moving the screen one line up or down, you'll notice a visible increase in sharpness. If your source can't be adjusted, you can use one of the Extron interfaces (with vertical shift) to do this externally. Just put the RGB interface between your source and the UVC/Emotia and shift the signal using the centering controls. This will oh-so magically increase the sharpness of your output a lot !

http://scanlines.hazard-city.de/

[SuperDeadite]

This is why you buy a proper monitor or something designed for the X, such as the XPC-4.

[fagin]

As alluded to above.... you can circumvent any improper line offset with a signal shift. The result for any source causing this issue is a "bingo" moment instantly, when shifting the image down a line.

The Emotia is an awesome piece of tech to scan convert 31 to 15khz. However for some sources you may have to purchase an additional Emotia unit (in serial) to get the final result you're after.

Trust me.... it will work perfectly once the signal has been shifted.

[Opethian]

XPC-4 is the way to go. then you can use any VGA monitor 640x480 CRT or LCD

[alamone]

XRGB-mini works fine, and bottom is not cut off. All you need to do is combine H/V sync to Csync, e.g. using an Extron RGB box.


Also, Neill Corlett wrote a utility "LCDfix" that reconfigures the timings on the X68000 so that the screen is not cut off.
You should try that to see if it fixes your problem.
http://www.neillcorlett.com/x68000

[kamiboy]

This is why you buy a proper monitor or something designed for the X, such as the XPC-4.

Well, a proper monitor wont give me 15khz support. I had a proper CRT PC monitor but trashed it as I didnt consider it worth keeping.

I've kept an eye on yahoo for the longest time for the right original X68000 trisync monitor to show up. When it does I'll be buying and hoping it will make the trip safely.

That, I belive, is the best solution for me. Not sure about the XPC-4.

And everyone else thanks for you comments and suggestions, I'll be looking into them. The line shift of the emotia is a detail I was not aware of and really aggravates me as I loathe to add another bulky unit complete with cables and PSU to an already messy setup.

[SuperDeadite]

XRGB-mini works fine, and bottom is not cut off. All you need to do is combine H/V sync to Csync, e.g. using an Extron RGB box.


Also, Neill Corlett wrote a utility "LCDfix" that reconfigures the timings on the X68000 so that the screen is not cut off.
You should try that to see if it fixes your problem.
http://www.neillcorlett.com/x68000

The XRGB-Mini is not recommended for X68K use. Several games actively switch between 15khz and 31khz in game. The Mini is very slow at this and basically has to restart itself and the TV will even go "no signal" while it's doing so. The XPC is designed for fast on the fly switching and does not have this issue. Using the XPC is like having a tri-sync monitor, while the Mini is like having two monitors and pulling out the plug from one and going to the other, will get tiresome very fast. There is a reason the Mini is still cheaper then the XPC after all.

[alamone]

I don't see the resolution switching delay really being much of an issue. Exactly how many games rapidly switch between 15/31 in-game?
At last year's meet we used a XRGB-mini with the X68000 and played many games, including Chorensha, Thunderforce, Akumajo Dracula,
Direct-X, and many more, and none of them did resolution switching in-game. I just don't see this being a major problem and a reason
to not recommend a XRGB-mini, which can be used for much more things than a XPC-4.

[SuperDeadite]

I don't see the resolution switching delay really being much of an issue. Exactly how many games rapidly switch between 15/31 in-game?
At last year's meet we used a XRGB-mini with the X68000 and played many games, including Chorensha, Thunderforce, Akumajo Dracula,
Direct-X, and many more, and none of them did resolution switching in-game. I just don't see this being a major problem and a reason
to not recommend a XRGB-mini, which can be used for much more things than a XPC-4.

Those games don't actively switch. Galseed II, Atomic Robo Kid to name a few. Galseed II is one of the prettiest shooters on the system too, not playing it is missing out.

If you are going to buy an expensive video converter box for your X68K, the XPC-4 is the way to go. If you already own a Mini, you can stick with that until it annoys you. And how is the Mini better then the XPC? It has scanlines, but you can easily add that to the XPC. The XPC can downscan, the Mini cannot. The Mini has HDMI output, but I prefer VGA output myself.

Edit, by the way the games you mentioned are all 31khz by default. Thunderforce II is the only one that even supports 15khz. The machine boots up in 31khz, so if you load up a game that boots up in 15khz like Code Zero, you will miss seeing some of the opening screens as you wait for the Mini and TV to catchup. If you want to see 100% of what's going on, XPC is the way to go.

[alamone]

I have my beefs with the Mini too, especially the mini-din RGB connector which is flimsy and tends to fall out, but as far as I can tell, it is the most compatible upscaler for arcade PCBs and works on almost anything you throw at it, although some signals will need their sync to be run through a cleaner. Ideally, I would also prefer to use a tri-sync CRT, but it really is hard to find a proper one. I too tried using the PVM-L5 multiformat CRT, but found that the sync range is much narrower than the older model PVMs; for example my 1943 PCB would not even sync to it. And of course no 24 KHz support either. So I guess it's just a matter of the XRGB-mini being the least of evils as far as upscalers are concerned, plus it's the only one where Micomsoft actively (relatively speaking) updates the firmware.

For arcade pcbs which are mostly 15KHz anyway, I prefer the older XRGBs as they are less finicky and you don't have to mess around with the OSD so much, mostly just plug and play. Especially the XRGB-1 seems to be very compatible and does not chop off the edges of the play area for problematic PCBs like toaplan games.

[SuperDeadite]

I have my beefs with the Mini too, especially the mini-din RGB connector which is flimsy and tends to fall out, but as far as I can tell, it is the most compatible upscaler for arcade PCBs and works on almost anything you throw at it, although some signals will need their sync to be run through a cleaner. Ideally, I would also prefer to use a tri-sync CRT, but it really is hard to find a proper one. I too tried using the PVM-L5 multiformat CRT, but found that the sync range is much narrower than the older model PVMs; for example my 1943 PCB would not even sync to it. And of course no 24 KHz support either. So I guess it's just a matter of the XRGB-mini being the least of evils as far as upscalers are concerned, plus it's the only one where Micomsoft actively (relatively speaking) updates the firmware.

For arcade pcbs which are mostly 15KHz anyway, I prefer the older XRGBs as they are less finicky and you don't have to mess around with the OSD so much, mostly just plug and play. Especially the XRGB-1 seems to be very compatible and does not chop off the edges of the play area for problematic PCBs like toaplan games.

I currently own an XRGB-1,2,2+, and DISPL. I traded off my 3 as I hated it. For my arcade games I stick with the DISPL mostly, the others are in boxes being saved in case I ever need them. As is my XPC since I have an original X68K monitor right now. I think I have a DISPL-TV as well lol. I like to be prepared for the future, so I pickup this stuff cheap when I can.

[kamiboy]

I pulled the mini out of its dusty box last night at connected it to my Compact.

I cant say I was dissapointed as I was not expecting much to begin with.

After a traditional few hours of fiddling with a million options I discovered that the only thing that looked somewhat tolerable was setting the mini to output 1080p in Smart x1.

31khz games looked alright in that mode, sharp and vibrant enough whereas they looked atrocious in any other mode.

Unfortunately 15khz games fared far worse. When scanlines are turned on they seem to be applied unevenly causing a wave like formation in the image. And with scanlines off they just look subpar. 

Overall there was also visual artefacts when the screen scrolled in games such as a lack of smoothness. It looks like bad geometry on CRT's. The mini also needed sync level set pretty high for it to produce any picture at all, so be careful of that. 

Anyhow, this was just an experiment, I would prefer playing the X68000 on the L5 even with all of the sync issues. Back in the box the mini goes.

By the way, I noticed that the XPC-4 and mini cost approximately the same on Micomsofts page. If anyone has a XPC-4 that they would want to swap for a practically unused mini then let me know. 

[Opethian]

I use the XPC-4 and a mini-SLG from craftymech works great.

[kamiboy]

So with the mini SLG you get perfectly aligned scanlines in 15khz games? If so then XPC-4 is worth a shot. All my mini is doing is collecting dust anyway.

[Opethian]

I get scan lines but I do not have a 15khz monitor so the 15 is upscanned to 31khz and I add the scanlines inline with the monitor with the mini SLG. I think it looks good.

[Fudoh]

I have a really hard time believing that it's not possible to get good results on a Mini. Not to sound harsh, but it sounds a little bit as if you just don't know how to achieve the best results through the Mini.

There's no reason that the XPC-4 should look better than the Mini on 15khz signals.

[kamiboy]

That might very well be true. But I generally feel the mini is a terrible consumer device for what it is supposed to do. It has too many little options to play around with and many of these options are an absolute pain in the ass to fiddle with, what with each notch of a bar causing a few seconds of blank screen delay before you get to see the results.

I have a very low tolerance for devices that you have to work for rather than devices that work for you. The mini might be a dream device for tinkerers like you Fudoh, who have made a hobby of doing such, but for a dilettante like me who just wants something that works without much fuss it is a nightmare.

In my defence I used a full three hours messing with the mini last night and that is more fiddling than I usually am willing to put up with.

I get scan lines but I do not have a 15khz monitor so the 15 is upscanned to 31khz and I add the scanlines inline with the monitor with the mini SLG. I think it looks good.

Yes, I figures as much. That was exactly what I wanted to know.

[RGB32E]

There's no reason that the XPC-4 should look better than the Mini on 15khz signals.

The mini Chroma subsamples RGB (4:2:2) and the XPC-4 does not (maintains RGB color space from end to end)? I would think this gives the XPC-4 the edge over the mini if you're ultra particular about color quality.

Other benefits of the XPC-4 over the mini?
-Lower input lag?
-Quicker 240p/480i switching times
-Supports 24kHz RGB

The only downsides I've heard about the XPC-4 are:
-Not as sharp as the mini/3? I don't know how this could be if you're output resolution is 1080p?
-Harder to adjust for 240p usage?
-Uses DVI-I input? Making use of an extra VGA to DVI-A adapter more common, but quality issues can crop up?

It would be a $400+ gamble to buy to try, and another forum member didn't like the results for reasons that are unclear to me.

[kamiboy]

The biggest advantage of the XPC-4, for me at least, is that is has analog video out so I can connect it to a CRT instead of an LCD. Much of my dislike of the XRGB is no doubt related to my general distaste of seeing none native resolution material on an LCD, especially when we are talking about pixel art.

I have a 29" 100hz CRT TV here that I am not using for anything because it shits the bed when fed 15khz 240p. This particular set is special in that it can accept 480p via component. So it is essentially a big VGA monitor if one is so inclined. If I can swap the mini for a XPC-4 the plan is to see whether it can be used as an in-between toward this set. If not then I could always find a cheap big PC CRT monitor and use that as a last resort.

Or sell the XPC-4 and put the money towards a proper X68000 monitor when the right one pops up on Yahoo auctions. Not really a gamble as far as I see it. Micomsoft products hold their value well.

Edit:

Also, RGB32E, we have the exact same post count now.

[alamone]

Just for the record, the Mini does 24KHz as well, so that is not an advantage that the XPC4 has.
If having VGA analogue out is your main beef, then just use something like the HDFury. You can get older versions for dirt cheap.
Personally, I'd keep your Mini over an XPC4, but it's your money. If resolution switching latency is a big concern, then I concede
the Mini may not suit your purposes.

[kamiboy]

My main beef with the mini is that it is not a device for me. I Should never have purchased it as it will never do me any good.

Out of laziness I have yet to unplug it and packed it away, this might be a ripe time for Fudoh to share his optimal X68000+mini settings if he has them.

In any regard I think I have found a buyer for the mini so once I have the cash I might take a chance on a X68000 monitor from Japan and pray that the seller packs it secure enough to withstand a significant amount of abuse while it is being double shipped.

My original plan was to wait for a monitor with the original box to show up complete with protective styro, alas I may be asking for too much.

[segasonicfan]

Thanks for this great info. I really want a *cheap* downscaler for my X68000 and was thinking of going for the Emotia. Does anyone have video footage of the problems that show up? Also, can you move the image so it cuts off top instead of bottom?

Right now I have a very shitty TVator Exec downscaler. Mind you, it was <$50 and it outputs 15khz RGB from VGA. But it tears the image a lot, and cuts off too. However, there are buttons to zoom and move the image display so you don't get missing lines. The worst offense of this thing is the jitter in Castlevania. I mean CONSTANT jitter when you walk, lol.

Anyone else have an Emotia (different model maybe?) they could vouch for?

-Segasonicfan

[kamiboy]

My recommendation is either get a XPC-4 or, like me, buy an original X68000 monitor from Japan.

Neither are a cheap option, but the X68000 is a strange device that puts out a lot of exotic resolutions that simply will not cooperate with cheap solutions. The only thing that works perfectly is the monitor the machine was designed to work with I fear.

[Ed Oscuro]

Just for the record, the Mini does 24KHz as well, so that is not an advantage that the XPC4 has.

Didn't we have some discussion about the much faster switching time of the XPC4 over the mini? That still counts as an advantage for the XPC4. (I realize this is an old post, but just in case somebody noted that post and thought the two devices were the same...)

@ Segasonicfan: You probably won't have luck with 24KHz signals, but an old PC VGA CRT monitor with a simple pin adapter will display X68000 video in 31KHz modes. Naturally, you don't get any low- or med-rez video this way, so you have to be able to switch games blind (and hope you don't have any that won't play in 31KHz modes).

@ kamiboy: I wonder if a multiformat / multisync monitor would work. Don't know how a simple pin adapter would work for the multiple formats though - and naturally the separate H and V syncs would have to be combined to work on some monitors.

Honestly, my X68000 AND FM Towns monitors both were broken on arrival, trashed 'em, not worth it. We really should pursue this in more detail though.

[segasonicfan]

My recommendation is either get a XPC-4 or, like me, buy an original X68000 monitor from Japan.

In a perfect world this is what I would do. But we're talking $300-$400 and that is wayyyy out of my budget. I'm looking for a solution <$100. Basically I want to know how bad the Emotia is for this setup, what the noise looks like, how much is cutoff, etc. a picture would be worth a thousand words here.

For the record, my TVator exec does work, it's just far from ideal. I think there are a lot of solutions out there for those of us with a limited budget and it would be great to learn more about them

-Segasonicfan

[Fudoh]

How would an Emotia help with the 24khz output anyway ?

Do you intend to use a 15khz or a 31kzh monitor ?

[antron]

He intends to use a 15kHz monitor or TV. He is just trying to get his 31kHz games to display well on it. Ed was just pointing out 24kHz games would be a no-go with the emotia.

How about a regular trisync arcade monitor?

[Fudoh]

The Extron VSC units will take both 24 and 31khz and convert both to 15khz 480i in RGB and component.. With a wide range of adjustments that usually works pretty well. Dirt cheap as well.

[antron]

buy an original X68000 monitor from Japan.

but is it any different than say a Mitsubishi Mega View AM2752A? It can scan from 15.6-39kHz.