Advice on which SNES to buy

[andykara2003]

Hi,

I have a choice of buying a US SNES mini with an RGB mod or a 1Chip PAL SNES and getting the cartridge bay widened & 60Hz mod to play NTSC cartridges. (I'll avoid running PAL carts at 60HZ as I've heard that this can cause inconsistencies & super FX games won't run).

I prefer the authentic look of the PAL SNES (I'm in the UK & don't like the look of the US SNES), but I'm concerned that the slot widening might look amateurish. Also I'm unsure as to whether running even a genuine NTSC cart on a PAL SNES in 60Hz mode might mean some of the games don't run exactly as they would in an NTSC SNES.

Would anyone be able to shed any light on this?

Cheers.

PS. I'm thinking of using the UK company Console Passion if I go with the PAL SNES - anyone know if they're any good?

[blizzz]

It depends on which console version looks better to you. For me it has to be a classic PAL SNES or Super Famicom. If the mod for the PAL console switches the timing crystal there should be no speed difference between the consoles.

Here a two photos of my modded SNES. Maybe that helps you decide.
PAL SNES with widened slot & PAL SNES with US game

[bobrocks95]

They'd both be 1-Chip ones, so they'd function the same. Usually slot widening looks cheap and crappy, it's hard to do a really good job on it. Considering all the effort you'd have to put into the PAL I'd say SNES Mini.

EDIT: blizzz's actually looks really good. Still a lot of effort when you're just going to be modding it to play US games. Of course, there's also the effort of the RGB mod on the SNES Mini. Maybe they kind of even out?

[Ed Oscuro]

I thought nobody knew of any UK SNESes of the 1Chip variety - is this wrong? Likewise, the SNES mini isn't 1chip at all (though reportedly easy to mod, and it looks fine also).

[bobrocks95]

I thought nobody knew of any UK SNESes of the 1Chip variety - is this wrong? Likewise, the SNES mini isn't 1chip at all (though reportedly easy to mod, and it looks fine also).

My whole life is a lie then. I thought all the mini's were 1Chip, and that was part of why they could make it smaller. I thought that's why people said the Mini looked the best, since the 1Chips look better in general. I guess the Mini just looks better because you build part of the RGB circuit yourself?

[Skips]

I thought nobody knew of any UK SNESes of the 1Chip variety - is this wrong? Likewise, the SNES mini isn't 1chip at all (though reportedly easy to mod, and it looks fine also).

My whole life is a lie then. I thought all the mini's were 1Chip, and that was part of why they could make it smaller. I thought that's why people said the Mini looked the best, since the 1Chips look better in general. I guess the Mini just looks better because you build part of the RGB circuit yourself?

The mini uses the same PPU as the 1-Chip, it just does not have 1-Chip printed on its PCB but they are technically both "One Chips". They are both single chip PPU's. If the 1-Chip is left stock the mini is just a tiny bit sharper than it (barely even noticeable) however that has something to do with the 1-Chip's RGB out circuit (you can make the 1-Chip look identical to the mini by modifying it) and not the PPU. The 1-Chip is cool if you want a stock SNES look however the mini tends to be a good deal cheaper (unless you find a 1-Chip where the person selling it doesn't know what it is) and a lot easier to find. When it comes to getting a 1-Chip or Mini the differences are barely even noticeable when it comes to picture quality. It is pretty much just pick the one more available or the one you find to be more pleasant to look at on your shelf.

[andykara2003]

Thanks for this guys

On further research, it seems that there are PAL 1-chip SNESs - http://kyorune.com/modding/article.php?id=13

Can anyone confirm this 100%?

Also, does anyone know the best mod for the 1-chip PAL console?

I'd ideally like to find a mod that, assuming I have the slot widened and only play US games, will play US games EXACTLY as if they were playing on a US SNES i.e. the same speed, graphics, without glitches etc as well as the super FX games.

Cheers

[Unseen]

On further research, it seems that there are PAL 1-chip SNESs - http://kyorune.com/modding/article.php?id=13

Can anyone confirm this 100%?

Sure there are, although I think I've seen claims that the identification based on the sticker color isn't 100% accurate.

Also, does anyone know the best mod for the 1-chip PAL console?

For switching between 50 and 60 Hz? Try this one.

I'd ideally like to find a mod that, assuming I have the slot widened and only play US games, will play US games EXACTLY as if they were playing on a US SNES i.e. the same speed, graphics, without glitches etc as well as the super FX games.

I never had a US SNES, so I can't comment on that - but I haven't seen any obvious issues.

[andykara2003]

Thanks for this Unseen.

I'm wondering if it would be possible to not bother with the slot widening and just swap the board inside the carts with the US board of the same game. Not something I would definitely be doing but just curious as I would be able to retain the look of the console. Of course this would mean buying 2 copies of each game!

The much more probable route I will take is to buy the PAL 1-chip and get the Supercic mod done on it by professionals. This mod is supposed to be the best but is more difficult to do on a 1-chip than on a standard SNES and my modder can't do it. Does anyone know of a really well regarded modding service in the UK?

Alternatively, does anyone know of a better mod for the PAL 1-chip?

[BuckoA51]

If the mod for the PAL console switches the timing crystal there should be no speed difference between the consoles.

I don't know of any mod service that does this though, how difficult is it? Where would you get the parts?

I'd ideally like to find a mod that, assuming I have the slot widened and only play US games, will play US games EXACTLY as if they were playing on a US SNES i.e. the same speed, graphics, without glitches etc as well as the super FX games.

You won't notice the difference between PAL modded and true NTSC but your TV might, are you going to play on a CRT or HDTV (with or without upscaler) ?

The much more probable route I will take is to buy the PAL 1-chip and get the Supercic mod done on it by professionals. This mod is supposed to be the best but is more difficult to do on a 1-chip than on a standard SNES and my modder can't do it. Does anyone know of a really well regarded modding service in the UK?

We can do the SuperCIC mod for you no problem, we can widen the cartridge slot too but only in a "basic" fashion, i.e we don't fit a new cover or anything like that. I find if I leave a cartridge in I never even notice it though.

[blizzz]

I think you can swap the PCB between cartridges of the same game in different regions. There are different sizes for the PCBs, so I'm not 100% sure if you can just use any cartridge, but I think that might also be possible.

The "best" mod at the moment seems to be the "ultimate switchless mod" that includes an NTSC crystal and a D4 region patch. Here's a German tutorial and a link to a modder that does it: Tutorial / modder

I'm sure someone can point you to a modder in the UK that can do the same thing.

[andykara2003]

Thankd Blizzz - I've sent an email to them.

I've tried UK modders as well - it's looking like modders generally don't like to do the 1-chip mod as it's more difficult. I'm also getting the feeling that it's going to be hard to find people who will do the NTSC crystal as well. Are there any expert modders on the forum that can do this stuff?

[brownvim]

You could buy a SD2snes in the PAL cartridge, won't have to widen the slot to play NTSC games.

Although, not every game works with that flash cart.

[andykara2003]

Thanks for the suggestion - I'm a bit of a stickler for genuine karts tho.

I've now found videogameperfection.com who seem to be the real deal - brilliant website with loads of info & they're members of this forum. They do the super CIC mod but not with the NTSC crystal. I've read that the NTSC crystal helps to display the SNES on modern TV's that don't have the tolerance to accept the slight frequency change that happens with modded PAL consoles running NTSC games.

I'll always use a CRT, so does the NTSC crystal have any other benefits or is it just for modern display compatability?

[Pasky]

The owner of that site is a member here. I'm sure he'll chime in at some point now.

[andykara2003]

The owner of that site is a member here. I'm sure he'll chime in at some point now.

He got in touch with me today & says that he'd never heard of the NTSC crystal mod that Blizzz was taking about but I remember seeing it mentioned on a website before.

I'm sure the Super CIC mod is fine & I'll probably go with them anyway, I'm just interested to if there's a significant benefit to this NTSC crystal.

[blizzz]

Doesn't the SuperCIC mod require an NTSC crystal for 1CHIP consoles? At least that's what I was told last month.

[BuckoA51]

Not to my knowledge, maybe I need to contact Ray (my modder guy) and clarify this. I know we've SuperCIC'd the SNES Jrs before and I thought they were the same motherboard as the 1 chips.

[Ed Oscuro]

I thought nobody knew of any UK SNESes of the 1Chip variety - is this wrong? Likewise, the SNES mini isn't 1chip at all (though reportedly easy to mod, and it looks fine also).

My whole life is a lie then. I thought all the mini's were 1Chip, and that was part of why they could make it smaller. I thought that's why people said the Mini looked the best, since the 1Chips look better in general. I guess the Mini just looks better because you build part of the RGB circuit yourself?

The mini uses the same PPU as the 1-Chip, it just does not have 1-Chip printed on its PCB but they are technically both "One Chips". They are both single chip PPU's. If the 1-Chip is left stock the mini is just a tiny bit sharper than it (barely even noticeable) however that has something to do with the 1-Chip's RGB out circuit (you can make the 1-Chip look identical to the mini by modifying it) and not the PPU. The 1-Chip is cool if you want a stock SNES look however the mini tends to be a good deal cheaper (unless you find a 1-Chip where the person selling it doesn't know what it is) and a lot easier to find. When it comes to getting a 1-Chip or Mini the differences are barely even noticeable when it comes to picture quality. It is pretty much just pick the one more available or the one you find to be more pleasant to look at on your shelf.

PPUs are one thing - but there's other differences in the mini hardware which actually do affect some games in minor ways. Nothing that would stop me from using a mini (or a modded mini) - but it is a different machine. "Technically," 1-CHIP refers to the later revisions of the big-style SNES motherboard - the mini is something else entirely (SNN-CPU-01).

[BuckoA51]

Regarding the ultimate mod boards Blizzz linked to, does anyone know where you can order them from? I'm reading the tutorial through Google Translate so maybe I'm missing something.

[andykara2003]

Thanks for shedding light on that Ed. I've decided on the PAL SNES now so the only thing left is whether it's worth sending my SNES to Germany to get the NTSC crystal mod Blizz mentioned or going for the SuperCIC mod. The superCIC sounds like it's a good mod but I haven't found anyone that does it who also includes the NTSC crystal.

I don't know what the differences are between the two, but my suspicion is that the SuperCIC runs the games 99% the same speed and consistency as the NTSC games but going the extra step of replacing the crystal effectively makes the console run exactly the same in all areas, no different than using an NTSC console.

Does anyone have any clarification on this?

[BuckoA51]

More like 99.9%, you'd never notice it in gameplay. The only time it is an issue is with certain HDTVs and/or upscaler setups.

[andykara2003]

Thanks Bucko, that clears up everything. I'm using CRTs so that won't be an issue. I didn't initially realise you were from Videogameperfection.com - I'll order the mod through your website.

The only other issue is that I've decided not to widen the slot to preserve the console look so I'll be using a converter to play the NTSC carts. Does anyone know what the best converter is for this (cost is not a barrier)?

Also, are there any issues with using a converter (i.e. will it function exactly the same as widening the slot & running NTSC games that way?).

[ikari_01]

No, it doesn't clear up anything, it's just false information. The 1CHIP SNES (or if you like to be picky, ANY SNES using the S-CPUN which unites the S-CPU, S-PPU1, and S-PPU2 on a single die), when switching between 50Hz and 60Hz, also switches the clock multiplier inside the S-CPUN. Without the crystal mod you will have a SNES running at 17MHz instead of 21MHz in 60Hz mode. Needless to say you won't get anywhere near 60Hz, more like 49Hz and a horizontal frequency of about 13kHz. Utterly unusable. The crystal mod is REQUIRED for 1CHIP 50/60Hz mods of any kind.

[kel]

If you want to install a superCIC in a 1CHIP SNES then you have to add the extra circuit that unseen linked to above to automatically switch between NTSC and PAL crystals or at the very least use a SPDT switch to manually switch between crystals but that method is old and has it's drawbacks and is superseded by ikari_01's automatic circuit mentioned previously.

There is no other way around it. If you don't add a way of switching between crystals then you will end up with a black screen when you switch to the opposite region of your SNES.

EDIT: I didn't see ikari_01's post above when I wrote this post and he explained it better

[BuckoA51]

If that's the case then the replacement clock crystal must also be part of our mod, as we've sucessfully modded a couple of 1 chip machines and not had any complaints. I'm not actually the modder I just do the customer service so blame me for the confusion here.

[andykara2003]

If that's the case then the replacement clock crystal must also be part of our mod, as we've sucessfully modded a couple of 1 chip machines and not had any complaints. I'm not actually the modder I just do the customer service so blame me for the confusion here.

No worries at all Bucko - Would it be OK to confirm with your modder that the 1-chip mod definitely contains the NTSC crystal and whether it has the automatic circuit that switches between NTSC & PAL crystals or the manual switch?

[BuckoA51]

I will, but I can't imagine someone like Ikari is mistaken about this, he does design SNES hardware after all.

[andykara2003]

I will, but I can't imagine someone like Ikari is mistaken about this, he does design SNES hardware after all.

Thanks Bucko - it's just for peace of mind before I go ahead really - but also to know whether it's an automatic or a manual switch between the two crystals.

[BuckoA51]

It does indeed have the two crystals. All the SuperCIC mods feature an auto switching mode.