The BIG thread of Shmup grievances.

[Stevens]

That feel when you're having a good run, then pick up the wrong powerup and get fucked six ways from sunday.

Or you're having a great run and you eat a random bullet.

Then proceed to eat two more in the following 12 seconds for game over.

[Krooze L-Roy]

This one goes for all modern games, not just shmups:

Are you sure you want to exit the game?
Are you sure you don't want to save your replay?
Are you sure you don't want to submit your score?
Are you sure you want to overwrite your save?
Are you sure you're sure?

What kind of a wishy washy asshole do game developers think we are? I mean, it's good to have a safeguard so you don't accidentally erase all your saves or something, but most of this shit is completely routine and inconsequential. Like, if I close the program by mistake... so what? I'll can just open it back up. Takes two seconds. How many times would that have to happen to a person before the incessant double checking becomes justified?

[Patashu]

This one goes for all modern games, not just shmups:

Are you sure you want to exit the game?
Are you sure you don't want to save your replay?
Are you sure you don't want to submit your score?
Are you sure you want to overwrite your save?
Are you sure you're sure?

What kind of a wishy washy asshole do game developers think we are? I mean, it's good to have a safeguard so you don't accidentally erase all your saves or something, but most of this shit is completely routine and inconsequential. Like, if I close the program by mistake... so what? I'll can just open it back up. Takes two seconds. How many times would that have to happen to a person before the incessant double checking becomes justified?

On the other end, a few versions ago, in Crimzon Clover WORLD IGNITION if I wanted to pause the game and muscle memory made me hit esc instead of the menu button, it would instantly close without asking, even if you were 20 minutes into a playthrough.

[LordHypnos]

Welp. I just repeatedly failed to clear Touhou on easy >_<
With MarisaA and even with ReimuA (who is I'm pretty sure easy mode. easy mode within easy mode)

Probably gonna give it one more go, but god damn it! I mean I made it to Stage 6 of Mars Matrix, I can't even clear Mountain of Faith on easy? Admittedly I don't have most of it memorized, but still!

[Squire Grooktook]

Welp. I just repeatedly failed to clear Touhou on easy >_<
With MarisaA and even with ReimuA (who is I'm pretty sure easy mode. easy mode within easy mode)

Probably gonna give it one more go, but god damn it! I mean I made it to Stage 6 of Mars Matrix, I can't even clear Mountain of Faith on easy? Admittedly I don't have most of it memorized, but still!

You have focus mode and bomb mapped right? I remember seeing one guy a while back jump into the game without knowing how to change move speed and died on the first boss a bunch whilst flailing around with an uncontrollably fast Marisa.

Also in MOF your bombs are based on your power level, which can sometimes be refilled in the middle of boss fights. So bomb spam as much as possible lol.

Also the real "easy mode character" is MarisaB for her glitched unfocused laser that pratically instant kills bosses.

[LordHypnos]

Welp. I just repeatedly failed to clear Touhou on easy >_<
With MarisaA and even with ReimuA (who is I'm pretty sure easy mode. easy mode within easy mode)

Probably gonna give it one more go, but god damn it! I mean I made it to Stage 6 of Mars Matrix, I can't even clear Mountain of Faith on easy? Admittedly I don't have most of it memorized, but still!

You have focus mode and bomb mapped right? I remember seeing one guy a while back jump into the game without knowing how to change move speed and died on the first boss a bunch whilst flailing around.

Also in MOF your bombs are based on your power level, which can sometimes be refilled in the middle of boss fights. So bomb spam as much as possible lol.

Probably just need to spam bombs more. I barely ever use them (actually am really terrible at using bombs in general). I have focus and bomb mapped just fine. IDK. This really seems like something I should be able to clear with hardly any practice. It's also late in CST world, though, and I'm sure that being pretty tired doesn't help.

[ACSeraph]

My first question is why are you even wasting your time with easy? You definitely have what it takes for normal at least.

I mean I made it to Stage 6 of Mars Matrix, I can't even clear Mountain of Faith on easy? Admittedly I don't have most of it memorized, but still!

Being good at one hard game doesn't make every easier game free. That memorization factor is more significant than you realize. I can't speak for easy, but keep in mind that 2hu on Normal doesn't have a rep for being easy because the patterns are easy, it's because you have a shitload of hugely damaging bombs and resources to cheese your way through compared to other shmups. So just like Squire says, learn to spam that shit. If you just bomb like you don't really give a shit you'll clear the easy mode fast. Normal will take at least a little bit of effort, Mars matrix skills or not, but it will be more rewarding in the end.

But isn't stage 6 near the very end of MM? This is just my personal advice to you, but when you've taken it that far, it's time to strap in and focus every minute of your shmup attention on finally securing that clear. Forget other games until you clear those last brutal few yards to the touchdowns. I'm rooting for you, I want to see you get that clear you've been working so hard for. (in other words: fuck 2hu [for now])

[LordHypnos]

But isn't stage 6 near the very end of MM? This is just my personal advice to you, but when you've taken it that far, it's time to strap in and focus every minute of your shmup attention on finally securing that clear. Forget other games until you clear those last brutal few yards to the touchdowns. I'm rooting for you, I want to see you get that clear you've been working so hard for. (in other words: fuck 2hu [for now])

You're probably right. It's still gonna be a while though. Only reason why I was able to make it to stage 6 was because I no missed the first four stages up until the fourth stage boss. That requires being pretty seriously in the zone. When I was practicing yesterday, I only managed to no miss stage 4 (on its own) like once. Still need a lot of practice on stages 3 - 5 honestly.


Here's another grievance, btw: having a strategy that you're able to consistently execute one day, and then losing it the next. Note that it's a strategy for the one pattern that differs between the DC and AC versions of the game, so I can't isolate the spot in a savestate even. hahaha.

[Mr12Inches]

Sixty hours of Crimzon Clover: World Ignition and I STILL cannot reliably get through Arcade Original Stage 3 without losing practially all of my lives. I am legitimately bad at video games. (I hope I haven't gone full DTP yet)

[Patashu]

Sixty hours of Crimzon Clover: World Ignition and I STILL cannot reliably get through Arcade Original Stage 3 without losing practially all of my lives. I am legitimately bad at video games. (I hope I haven't gone full DTP yet)

You're not bad at video games. Arcade Original Stage 3 is INCREDIBLY difficult even for experienced shmup players. I still don't know the strategy for this stage.

[Bananamatic]

stage 3 really isn't all that bad, especially with the new bomb mechanics and midboss item pick ups

[Pteriforever]

If you think Stage 3 is bad, you should see Stage 5.

So you've got games like XOP Black Ultra and most of the Touhous where the final stage is just a normal step up from the others. Then there's stuff like DFK and Kaikan where it's a giant step up from the others.

And then there's Crimzon f****** Clover.

*cries*

[mastermx]

Sixty hours of Crimzon Clover: World Ignition and I STILL cannot reliably get through Arcade Original Stage 3 without losing practially all of my lives. I am legitimately bad at video games. (I hope I haven't gone full DTP yet)

You're not bad at video games. Arcade Original Stage 3 is INCREDIBLY difficult even for experienced shmup players. I still don't know the strategy for this stage.

Agreed, stage 3 is the first huge difficulty spike in the game. Just grind it in practice mode. Create strategies for each situation of the stage, such as tap dodging the fast blue steam of aimed bullets. And know when to break, so do it in your troubled areas, for me the part I always break in is when the snakes pop up.

[Squire Grooktook]

In terms of difficulty spikes, I'd say the final stages in Ketsui and DDP:DOJ are worse, IMO.

Actually DOJ stage 5 is kinda comparable in that you can cheese through a lot of it with well timed hypers/breaks + bomb spamming.

[Bananamatic]

If you think Stage 3 is bad, you should see Stage 5.

So you've got games like XOP Black Ultra and most of the Touhous where the final stage is just a normal step up from the others. Then there's stuff like DFK and Kaikan where it's a giant step up from the others.

And then there's Crimzon f****** Clover.

*cries*

only the final part with the st3 boss clones in st5 arcade original is somewhat hard

honestly the only thing that makes this game difficult is the fact that it's long as shit and you get only 4 extends at most if you're playing well and unless you have a really good route you won't get anywhere close to the 4th one

ketsui or dojbl 1st loop are only 21 minutes, sdoj is around 24 minutes, this game is 34 minutes on boost, 36 minutes on original and 42 minutes or so on unlimited
just no missing the stages is slightly easier than an average cave 1st loop except the game is almost 2x longer and if you're just playing for survival with no strict routing, you get the 1st extend at the end of st2, second somewhere in stage 4 and 3rd somewhere past the midpoint in stage 5 without getting anywhere near the 4th one

it's not that the game is incredibly hard, rather it's incredibly easy to do 3 stupid fuckups in the first 15 minutes and you're already out of lives

[Lilium]

Sixty hours of Crimzon Clover: World Ignition and I STILL cannot reliably get through Arcade Original Stage 3 without losing practially all of my lives. I am legitimately bad at video games. (I hope I haven't gone full DTP yet)

The second half of that stage can probably be a bit of a chokepoint if you're not prepared for it. Practice it thoroughly in stage practice as others has suggested. A few things that I found to help:

- The early stage is really easy to get yourself a double break and use it so that it ends while doing the midboss.
- Pick up the energy from the midboss and double break so that those enemies doesn't ram you.
- Try to go break-free until the big long things. The guys that throw aimed blue bullets at you in a weird way (you'll probably understand what i mean) i find to be potentially douchy but i found that going pretty aggressive on those and getting them out of the way fast is ideal.
- Most of the enemies here are aiming shots straight at you. Exploit this.
- Try to have a break ready when you get to the long enemies with a head and a tail. I don't like having them alive when the next part of the stage begins.
- If the barrages after the long things turn out to be too intense to dodge (i often find this to be the case) you should use bombs. The bombs gauge can be recovered after the stage 3 boss by using gauge recharge.

These are the strategies that i can come up with. I can't reliably No-miss No-bomb this stage but with this i can pretty reliably get no-miss at least. Try doing some of that.

[Mr12Inches]

For those who replied, thanks for the input. I'll try to incorporate the strategies you guys mentioned in future Stage 3 practice sessions. I've been trying to learn how to score in Stage 3, but I guess I need to approach it from a survival standpoint first if I want to learn how to consistently no miss the stage (which will be hard for me because I really like scoring ).

You're not bad at video games. Arcade Original Stage 3 is INCREDIBLY difficult even for experienced shmup players. I still don't know the strategy for this stage.

Well, I certainly don't think I'm great at video games, but maybe I shouldn't base my competence on how well I can play these kinds of games B)

[Patashu]

That feel when you're recording 1LC attempts of a stage and the one time the recording doesn't work is of course the one time you get it

[Krooze L-Roy]

ketsui or dojbl 1st loop are only 21 minutes, sdoj is around 24 minutes, this game is 34 minutes on boost, 36 minutes on original and 42 minutes or so on unlimited

Out of curiosity, why is Unlimited so much longer? Slowdown? Turtling? Or is there extra content?

[Bananamatic]

Out of curiosity, why is Unlimited so much longer? Slowdown? Turtling? Or is there extra content?

no idea, probably slowdown

[LordHypnos]

Not to sound too much like OP, but how do you guys possibly find enough time to practice shooting games!? It takes me like a billion tries in any given day of any given part to even stand a chance to beat them in an actual game. If I don't have enough time to practice earlier stages, because I'm too busy practicing later stages, I fuck up on the earlier stages, and vice versa.

Also, I can't make it to Mars Matrix stage 6 again >_<
Last time I tried I kept dying on stages 4 and 5 a bunch, this time I perfected stages 4 and 5 except for the boss of stage 5 (and stage 4 chaining, but that's of minor importance compared to 3 and 5), but got destroyed in stages 3 and 2. 1 death in 2, 2 in 3.

Still managed to get up to around 1.8 million experience though But no high score, because all the points are in stage 6

[Blinge]

Wow I need a new inhaler, or need to be intubated or something cause I just keep CHOKING on Ikaruga.
Lost the best run of my life on the last stage today, screwed up scoring that's embedded further into muscle memory than speech

all i want's one more place on the scoreboard... ngngngn.. I'm so close..

[Patashu]

Not to sound too much like OP, but how do you guys possibly find enough time to practice shooting games!? It takes me like a billion tries in any given day of any given part to even stand a chance to beat them in an actual game. If I don't have enough time to practice earlier stages, because I'm too busy practicing later stages, I fuck up on the earlier stages, and vice versa.

You should segment your shmup play into two clear portions:
1) Practice. This is like rehearsing for the big performance. You're not going to do it all in one go because that's inefficient - you're going to try and map out as much of the game as possible, through familiarization, noticing and crafting routes, identifying weaknesses and grinding them to correct them, etc.
2) Attempts. Save these for when you have plenty of time and a portion of the day that lies between 10 am and 5 pm, because this is when you are at your most alert and your reflexes are the most consistent. Practice later stages beforehand - if your practice was efficient then this will be like route retrieval from your memory. Don't practice early stages, your full game attempts will 'practice' them enough as is. Consider doing no reset (credit feed) runs if you are grinding early game too much and it starts to get boring.

In particular, be aware of some things:
1) Sometimes you will play terribly. This doesn't mean your skill is eroding or that you need to do something about it. It probably just means you are tired, out of energy, in a poor mental/physical state or it is simply the wrong time of day/month. Identify when you're playing badly just because your physiology isn't at its peak and use this time valuably to do more mental instead of physically demanding things (like routing instead of throwing yourself at a wall of 'do all these reflex things perfectly because I want to prove I can do them!' when they're going to be better just by waiting until tomorrow ANYWAY regardless of what you do.)
2) If you do controlled practice and feedback loops - that is, whenever you do something wrong, identify what went wrong, say out loud what it was (use a video recording if you need to to analyze) and figure out how to correct it for the next run through - this is how your BRAIN learns the fastest and solidifies new neural paths the best. If you are doing this, you are basically conditioning your mind to know how to do these things right and how to learn when and how you are doing them wrong. If you do this right then sleep on it, your brain actually gets better at it overnight. This is very cool and doesn't just apply to games! If you have savestates, savestates are AWESOME for this. If you have videos and recordings, use them too.

Full Extent of the Jam: http://goo.gl/Fi2zE
Circadian Rhythm/Biological Clock: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circadian_ ... _human.svg
Using Neuroscience to Practice Optimally: https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/pos ... mally.html

[LordHypnos]

@Patashu: Thanks. That's pretty good advice. I actually have everything routed out, at this point, though I'll admit it probably does need a bit of ironing (A lot of what I was doing with practice, before). The issue is probably a mix between keeping focused for the entire length of the game, getting the timing of everything right (slight timing errors seem to have pretty serious repercussions), and the fact that I was attempting full runs at like 1:00am, which is kind of dumb . Problem seems to be that getting timing right takes quite a few runthroughs of any given stage (or boss, or part of stage, or whatever) before I can get it right. That takes a lot of time, and eats into my time if I want to try a full run, or practice other stages. Then today I didn't have any time to practice, so I might have lost something, you know. I'm sure it will come eventually so long as I keep doing good practice, though.

[Patashu]

Problem seems to be that getting timing right takes quite a few runthroughs of any given stage (or boss, or part of stage, or whatever) before I can get it right. That takes a lot of time, and eats into my time if I want to try a full run, or practice other stages. Then today I didn't have any time to practice, so I might have lost something, you know. I'm sure it will come eventually so long as I keep doing good practice, though.

Try to review a video of a successful completion of/use savestates to directly practice any section that you are worried about the timing of. Review and try to internalize what it looks like. Try it yourself. Ask yourself what went wrong and how to fix it. Repeat until you understand it well. Sleep on it. Come back to it in a day or two, even if only once (staggered repetition, you should repeat something a lot when first learning it, then wait a day, two days, three days, etc and this will help it form and then stick as long-term knowledge)
And don't do full game runs at 1 am unless you're a crazy person

[Stevens]

Zero Gunner 2. Been playing the Apache and the Comanche now. The Apache makes those cranes much easier to deal with, but regardless I keep hitting a wall towards the end of stage 6.

More practice is most likely the answer.

[ACSeraph]

God damn it what developmental disorder is it that keeps me coming back to Gradius

[Squire Grooktook]

Because it's a great series.

Some of the entries are very flawed, but even than there really is often great level design that tends to shine through when you learn to forgive those flaws.

[ACSeraph]

I'm like an angry violent alcoholic and Gradius is my hooch. It tastes great, but it makes me a violent, bad person. It doesn't have a positive impact on my life. When my kids see me blowing on the cartridge they know it's time to close their door and stay in their room. My wife starts looking anxious. If Darius is my wine, Gradius is my vodka.

[mastermx]

Gradius 3 is like a mistress. She may feel good for a while. But you have that sense of guilt after. She abuses you, and yet it's enjoyable. Gradius 3 is like meth, not even once. Gradius 3 was the one who shot Kennedy. Gradius 3 is a punch to the ball sack, by Bruce lee's one inch punch. For some reason I find myself knocking on its abusive door every now and again.