I mean if Outzone is a shmup, then you also have to consider Ikari Warriors, Time Soldiers, Heavy Barrel, etc a ton of other such games as shmups too...
Why is Outzone considered a shmup here?
Why is Outzone considered a shmup here?
Sorry not trying to be anal retentive or anything, but I just noticed that it seems to be the consensus here that Outzone is a shmup...why is that? I see it in the review archive and in people's top shmup lists...
I mean if Outzone is a shmup, then you also have to consider Ikari Warriors, Time Soldiers, Heavy Barrel, etc a ton of other such games as shmups too...
I mean if Outzone is a shmup, then you also have to consider Ikari Warriors, Time Soldiers, Heavy Barrel, etc a ton of other such games as shmups too...
Outzone
Actually, I would have to agree that it's technically not a shmup. I was trying to come up with some criteria to define a shmup a while ago and Outzone failed on the rule that there had to be forced advancement. Like in most run & gun's Outzone will not throw more enemies at you unless you voluntarily move forward. It *DOES* force you to keep a semi-brisk pace through the energy timer, unlike most run & guns, so it's REALLY close on that rule.
I think it squeaked by in the database because it's Toaplan
Now, I do love Outzone, got the PCB at home too. But I also recognize that it's more of a borderliner than a real shmup.
I think it squeaked by in the database because it's Toaplan
Now, I do love Outzone, got the PCB at home too. But I also recognize that it's more of a borderliner than a real shmup.
Currently playing: Gunbird 2 PCB
Gunsmoke
I was just thinking that I would consider Gunsmoke (old Capcom game) a shmup, and yet it is not listed here.
It's got forced vertical scrolling, definately a shooting game (3 buttons for left-diagonal, forward, right-diagonal fire), powerups, and even bosses at the ends of the levels.
Except that your ship is inexplicably shaped like a cowboy, is there any other reason that this should not be considered a true shmup?
It's got forced vertical scrolling, definately a shooting game (3 buttons for left-diagonal, forward, right-diagonal fire), powerups, and even bosses at the ends of the levels.
Except that your ship is inexplicably shaped like a cowboy, is there any other reason that this should not be considered a true shmup?
Currently playing: Gunbird 2 PCB
Re: Gunsmoke
There is the fact that you actually have to get an item to progress, but I'm not sure if that's against the rules or not.dboeren wrote:I was just thinking that I would consider Gunsmoke (old Capcom game) a shmup, and yet it is not listed here.
It's got forced vertical scrolling, definately a shooting game (3 buttons for left-diagonal, forward, right-diagonal fire), powerups, and even bosses at the ends of the levels.
Except that your ship is inexplicably shaped like a cowboy, is there any other reason that this should not be considered a true shmup?
Re: Outzone
Well, Defender is an horizontal shmup that does not have forced scrolling. So if you consider defender a shmup I don't see why you would not consider Outzone to be one as well. The timer thing has be done in shmup before too (see Last Duel). So to me Outzone is a 100 % shmup, and one of the best one IMO.dboeren wrote:Actually, I would have to agree that it's technically not a shmup. I was trying to come up with some criteria to define a shmup a while ago and Outzone failed on the rule that there had to be forced advancement.
Defender
I think it's not forced scrolling that's the true issue. Let's face it, scrolling is just graphics. However, scrolling nearly always occurs in conjunction with game events.
To me, the real issue is whether events are forced on you or not. In a shmup (by our definition), there is no break. Enemies keep coming at you. This is generally accompanied by scrolling, but occasionally not such as in a boss battle where scrolling often stops. In a run & gun, you can choose to sit still and the game generally does not cause new events to happen. In practice, they generally implement some kind of bad thing that happens if you wait too long, but the fact is there that you can can choose to stop for a while. This is a bit fuzzy, because the hurryup mechanisms can resemble moving-forward game events.
I think Defender is OK because game events continue to occur no matter whether you are moving or not. Contrast this with something like Commando (or Outzone) where if you stop moving the game stops pushing new events at you. Enemies that are already onscreen keep acting, but new ones don't appear. Outzone implements hurryup in the form of the energy bar, I don't remember at the moment what Commando uses.
Anyway, you can make arguments for Defender either way. A lot of old games tended to be rather unique in their gameplay, which is why they are hard to categorize.
What I find even harder to definitively categorize is a game like Ghosts & Goblins. Because they continually spawn enemies whether you move or not, it can closely resemble game events being pushed on the player. For a hurryup they have a timer and a special enemy that can appear if you take too long. It feels a lot closer to a run & gun than a shmup, but in order to cover this case I'd have to have some sort of definition of what "pushing a game event" actually means to show that this sort of continual spawning does not qualify. Perhaps that the event is linked to forward progression in the game or something?
To me, the real issue is whether events are forced on you or not. In a shmup (by our definition), there is no break. Enemies keep coming at you. This is generally accompanied by scrolling, but occasionally not such as in a boss battle where scrolling often stops. In a run & gun, you can choose to sit still and the game generally does not cause new events to happen. In practice, they generally implement some kind of bad thing that happens if you wait too long, but the fact is there that you can can choose to stop for a while. This is a bit fuzzy, because the hurryup mechanisms can resemble moving-forward game events.
I think Defender is OK because game events continue to occur no matter whether you are moving or not. Contrast this with something like Commando (or Outzone) where if you stop moving the game stops pushing new events at you. Enemies that are already onscreen keep acting, but new ones don't appear. Outzone implements hurryup in the form of the energy bar, I don't remember at the moment what Commando uses.
Anyway, you can make arguments for Defender either way. A lot of old games tended to be rather unique in their gameplay, which is why they are hard to categorize.
What I find even harder to definitively categorize is a game like Ghosts & Goblins. Because they continually spawn enemies whether you move or not, it can closely resemble game events being pushed on the player. For a hurryup they have a timer and a special enemy that can appear if you take too long. It feels a lot closer to a run & gun than a shmup, but in order to cover this case I'd have to have some sort of definition of what "pushing a game event" actually means to show that this sort of continual spawning does not qualify. Perhaps that the event is linked to forward progression in the game or something?
Currently playing: Gunbird 2 PCB
Good point. I always considered it a shmup, but I just wanted to make sure that it wasn't against the rules.Specineff wrote:@BrianC:
Forgotten worlds has a shop that you have to visit in order to get items to progress in the game, and it's a shmup. Arcade Gunsmoke is just as shmuppy as Guwange is, IMHO.
I consider defender to be a proto-shmup coz you can run away from enemies. It isn't that it isn't a shmup, it is just so early that the rules haven't really been clearly defined yet.
I always thought gunsmoke was a shmup.
Outzone is IMO a borderliner that's gotten favorable treatment coz it is by toaplan.
The thing is, I really do see this as anal because I think we all clearly understand what the standard, formulaic shmup looks like and what falls outside of that idea ever so slightly. I doubt malc would have any problem calling outzone (or defender) for that matter a shmup.
I really feel that as long as you aren't jumping on platforms it really isn't that big a deal.
I always thought gunsmoke was a shmup.
Outzone is IMO a borderliner that's gotten favorable treatment coz it is by toaplan.
The thing is, I really do see this as anal because I think we all clearly understand what the standard, formulaic shmup looks like and what falls outside of that idea ever so slightly. I doubt malc would have any problem calling outzone (or defender) for that matter a shmup.
I really feel that as long as you aren't jumping on platforms it really isn't that big a deal.
SHMUP sale page.Randorama wrote:ban CMoon for being a closet Jerry Falwell cockmonster/Ann Coulter fan, Nijska a bronie (ack! The horror!), and Ed Oscuro being unable to post 100-word arguments without writing 3-pages posts.
Eugenics: you know it's right!
Sorry wasn't trying to bash Outzone or anything, in fact it's one of my favorite games ever, I was just curious why it was considered a shmup here but other similar games like Ikari Warriors etc wasn't....I guess the Toaplan factor explains it. 
Actually just noticed that there was a recent review for another "borderline" shmup, Fantasy Zone....which plays more like Defender than a real shmup...
Actually just noticed that there was a recent review for another "borderline" shmup, Fantasy Zone....which plays more like Defender than a real shmup...
That's tricky. First, you don't race other cars. There is no race aspect whatsoever aside from the fact you are in a car. So essentially, it is a shooter in a car. Second, Kingdom Grandprix really is a racer/shooter, yet no one questions its status as a shooter.tehkao wrote:I have to disagree, I don't think Spy Hunter is a shmup or a shooter. It's a racing game that lets you shoot other cars.
You can say that it's a hybrid of racer and shooter, but the racer portion is the dominant aspect of the gameplay.
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I'd guess that's at least partially due to the fact that it's more or less a direct sequel to Mahou Daisakusen, a "definite" shmup, and even uses the same characters...if nothing else it keeps the imagery from an undisputed shmup and makes it its own...not to mention the fact that you can pretty much ignore the racing and still succeed and progress, if you want to.Andi wrote:Second, Kingdom Grandprix really is a racer/shooter, yet no one questions its status as a shooter.