Shmups you really want to like but can't

[Squire Grooktook]

For Cave games at least, I generally try to focus on survival till I 1cc the game, but I almost always end up playing for score anyway, because the scoring mechanics are just so fun that it's hard to avoid giving in to temptation and trying to score even when you want to focus on safety.

[spadgy]

because the scoring mechanics are just so fun that it's hard to avoid giving in to temptation and trying to score even when you want to focus on safety.

Exactly my problem!

[nasty_wolverine]

Sounds like you play in the same way as me

And me as well. I play for score till the stages my skill allows me to. Then I branch out to survival play and aim for a 1CC. However, each run I try to increase the score margin and find better routes for survival.

Well thats till i get a good score (according to my skill level) and a 1CC then forget about it all and start playing something new. Sometimes even before a 1CC.

[ZaKa-tokyobassist]

It's not so much hating on Cave but "Cave-styled" bullet hells introduced the tradition of robbing satisfaction of just beating the game away from the player if you don't focus on scoring.

Uhhhh, what? Why? Just because it has a lot of depth and a high skill ceiling doesn't mean that it's not satisfying to clear it based on survival. Kind of a try hard mentality if you ask me. I mean, does Gradius "rob" you of satisfaction just because you know there are guys out there who can take it to loop 255?

If that's not what you're saying, I apologize, but Cave isn't any easier than any other shmup developers output, so I don't see why a survival clear should be any less satisfying.

It's kind of like playing Ikaruga and not chaining...it's missing the whole point of the game and what really makes it fun. I feel like if I'm not attempting to score in say Ketsui, the game while still good just becomes plain. It's much more exciting to participate in the scoring mechanic. I never even said Cave games was remotely close to easy and other people's accomplishments don't dictate my drive to finish something so I don't know where you got that idea man. Sorry if you misunderstood.

[Squire Grooktook]

It's kind of like playing Ikaruga and not chaining...it's missing the whole point of the game and what really makes it fun. I feel like if I'm not attempting to score in say Ketsui, the game while still good just becomes plain. It's much more exciting to participate in the scoring mechanic. I never even said Cave games was remotely close to easy and other people's accomplishments don't dictate my drive to finish something so I don't know where you got that idea man. Sorry if you misunderstood.

I still don't understand. How exactly does it become as tepid as Ikaruga if you don't utilize those mechanics? Honestly, Ketsui played for survival is still a LOT more exciting than Ikaruga played for survival, and the same goes for most "old school" shooters that I can think of as well (for me at least). I'd chalk this up to the basic level and boss design being very involved, varied, and challenging in the first place.


And you still haven't clarified why you feel that having deep scoring mechanics "robs" you of satisfaction? Is it just because you don't like most of Cave's scoring systems besides Ketsui, or do you have some objection to deep scoring mechanics?

[nosorrow]

Radiant Silvergun: I don't enjoy it one bit. Got it this week and it's already back up on eBay.
Ikaruga: Playing it feels like a chore.
Mars Matrix: Overwhelming and too complicated for my tastes. Nondescript music.
RayCrisis: I really wanted to enjoy this one (I love the previous two in the series), but the way the ship handles is weird; it's as though you are stuck in molasses or something. Terrible soundtrack too.
Gun Frontier: Ship is too slow...
Robo Aleste: I think I must have bought that one at least three different times, really wanted to like it as I am a big fan of MUSHA, Space Megaforce and Blazing Lazers.
Gate of Thunder: I don't see what the big deal is, it's okayish (but I need to spend more time with it - it is also the most enjoyable game out of this list)

Terrible list... I commented on Radiant Silvergun and Mars Matrix before giving them enough time (now, thanks to the latter, I'm a huge fan of Takumi - I even enjoy Twin Cobra II!). RS and MM are probably my two favourite shooters now. :-/

I feel like giving RayCrisis a second chance as Galactic Attack and RayStorm are both highly enjoyable... we will see if my opinion shall change.

(What I said about Gun Frontier and especially Robo Aleste still stands - the latter feels like an unfinished game (or at least it needs a bit more polish). Compile should have dialed down on the cut scenes and spent more time on the gameplay. The patterns are cheap sometimes, bosses take a lot of time and the shooting sound is weird sometimes: it's as if the shots don't register. I don't think that is because of my X'Eye: all my other games work A-1).

I could add several games in the R-Type and Gradius/Salamander series, but I think it's just me losing interest in those types of games. Still have a soft spot for Gradius III (SNES) and R-Type Delta though (but R-Type III, Gradius V and Salamander 2, for example, I have a hard time caring about nowadays).

[Squire Grooktook]

Not quite games I dislike or anything, but a bit revised list since last time

*edit* removed 3 games that I said exactly the same thing last time lol. Mostly feel the same way about them as I did then (except Hellsinker).

Jamestown: Really wanted to like it. I kept replaying it hoping it's gameplay would stick out to me, but it just never did. The patterns just feel really bland and interchangeable to me, it has some cool ideas but imo it doesn't have that secret sauce in the level or pattern design.

Hitogatta Happa: Seems to be a very love it or hate it game in general, but those who love it really seem to love it. Unfortunately, like all the Gundemonium games, it feels fun to me at times but other times feels kinda...off, with occasionally strange pacing and difficulty balancing, and sometimes very blatantly poor telegraphing on hazards. Like the rest of the Gudemonium games, the patterns are a complete mixed bag also, ranging from genuinely fun and unique to snoozers to weird puzzle patterns that I don't like at all.

Most Psiyko games: Like Mars Matrix, has a lot of things I like in shmups on paper but strangely never clicks with me when I actually play them. I might blame the obnoxiously static and memorization focused patterns like was said earlier in this thread, but I really don't have much trouble with memorization if I really like a game. It's just another set of games that I boot up in Mame every once in a while but never feel compelling enough to me to give more than a few credits go.

Raiden III: Was hyped to play this, but when it finally came in...my gosh that move speed. Also applies to a lot of other Raiden games as well.

Strania: Small hitbox, environmental hazards, switchable weapons. Sounds really fun, but most of the patterns don't seem that fun to me, and the environmental hazards are the same. Overall it just feels too slow paced and memorization focused for my tastes.

[finisherr]

DoDonPachi DaiOuJou
And sadly... SaiDaiOuJou too....

This makes me sad. Amazing games.

[finisherr]

Akai Katana, DDP Resurrection, Batrider.

[Jonst]

Akai Katana, DDP Resurrection, Batrider.

This makes me sad. Amazing games.

[nasty_wolverine]

Akai Katana, DDP Resurrection, Batrider.

This makes me sad. Amazing games.

they are all good games. may be 2cool4u

[Doctor Butler]

Akai Katana, DDP Resurrection, Batrider.

You owe it to yourself to get into those.

[EmperorIng]

(now, thanks to the latter, I'm a huge fan of Takumi - I even enjoy Twin Cobra II!)

That's the spirit. It takes a while for Mars Matrix to click, but once it does, it's really something else.

I feel like giving RayCrisis a second chance as Galactic Attack and RayStorm are both highly enjoyable... we will see if my opinion shall change.

I personally think RayCrisis is better than RayStorm, though neither touch RayForce in terms of playability (I'm a big fan of the whole trilogy though). RayCrisis does have a little bit of weird feeling to it, and if you don't like it on a mechanical level I won't do much to convince you otherwise - I don't like the game's pinball-perspective and odd ship-drift. I did write up a short and rudimentary GD in the Strategy sub-forum if you (or any on-the-fence RayCrisis fans out there! ) are curious as to the finer-points of the game's design. I feel that once you get yourself on a path of destroying everything as quickly as possible and setting up large laser-attacks, the game gets a lot more hectic and enjoyable.

[nosorrow]

Thanks Emperor! I bookmarked your link and ordered a brand new copy of RayCrisis on eStarland.

Hopefully the game clicks this time.

[Tarma]

Border Down... beautiful looking game, understand the mechanics, just can't get on with it in practice

Ikaruga... pretty much like Border Down

[Jonst]

Border Down... beautiful looking game, understand the mechanics, just can't get on with it in practice

Ikaruga... pretty much like Border Down

Thank god! Thought it was just me.

[President_Obama]

I hate Ikaruga. It's brown.

[Tarma]

I really do want to like both Border Down and Ikaruga... sonically and visually they really show how good some of the late DC stuff is, but gameplay wise I cannot get on with either despite my best intentions to do so.

There are probably a few other games that could fall into this thread's category, but of the one's I'm thinking of, I really haven't put enough time into them to form a proper opinion.

[Captain]

Everyone who said that they hate Hellsinker in this thread will wake up next morning with an energy blade at their neck.

on topic: R-type 3 and Raystorm. (Force and Crisis are fine)

[Squire Grooktook]

Good thing I changed my mind about Hellsinker than. I'm still terrible at it, but I definitely see the appeal now.

[Stevens]

Raystorm - I have tried to get into this one one several occasions, but the controls are awful. Your ship feels way too floaty. It has some great bosses though.

Radiant Silvergun - I am awful at multitasking. Seven weapons is too much for me to keep track of at once.

Strania - I love G Rev and I feel they do little wrong, but I would rather watch a super play of this one (explosions!) than actually play it.

[Quantium]

Pink Sweets.

I like absolutely NOTHING about it. Probably my most hated Cave game of all time. Just nothing fun or enjoyable about it all.

[Jojomnia]

Parodius cause it is in my opinion clearly outclassed by Gokujyou Parodius ;(

[Emuser]

Saidaioujou - 1.0 is stupid. It isn't a bad game, it's just that it doesn't feel like a DDP. It doesn't help that there isn't very much enemy variety either, something all the other DDP games are good about. If this was not labeled a DDP game from the start I probably wouldn't be so peeved by it but dammit. Still need to try 1.5 though.

Akai Katana - Graphics, soundtrack, voices, multiple modes all look good, but the desire isn't there...yet at least. Dont really know what it is about this one that just doesn't quite get me going.

[nasty_wolverine]

Akai Katana - Graphics, soundtrack, voices, multiple modes all look good, but the desire isn't there...yet at least. Dont really know what it is about this one that just doesn't quite get me going.

Play shin/slash mode. Its the best mode.

[Despatche]

Terrible list... I commented on Radiant Silvergun and Mars Matrix before giving them enough time (now, thanks to the latter, I'm a huge fan of Takumi - I even enjoy Twin Cobra II!).

twin cobra ii isn't even takumi

it's also a good game that deserves 0% of the bashing it has received

It's kind of like playing Ikaruga and not chaining...it's missing the whole point of the game and what really makes it fun. I feel like if I'm not attempting to score in say Ketsui, the game while still good just becomes plain. It's much more exciting to participate in the scoring mechanic. I never even said Cave games was remotely close to easy and other people's accomplishments don't dictate my drive to finish something so I don't know where you got that idea man. Sorry if you misunderstood.

you are a good person

the trap that most people fail to realize exists:

fact: scoring is the largest part of the game, however:
fact: claims to actively dislike scoring, therefore:
fact: can only like a small part of the game

strangely the whole "you should survival the game first before scoring" is almost exactly like the whole "you should just learn kanji and radicals are irrelevant" thing

[zlk]

Pink Sweets: die on the wrong boss and your game is pretty much over. Your ship will be underpowered and it will take forever to kill the boss. Eventually I just want to trigger the infinite lives "feature," finish the game and never play ot think about it again. The music is good, the ship types are neat and the stages are cool. I just don't like playing the game.

Mushihimesama Futari (normal AND black label): I loved playing mushihime sama but can't stand playing the futaris. Some stages just seem to drag on for far too long and I don't have much fun playing the game. Many times I have put the pcb back in the cab thinking it will be fun but I get sick of the game after a few plays.

[EmperorIng]

In a Psikyo game, you'd be stupid to try to score without learning how to survive though (this applies to Psikyo games with 'scoring' systems, e.g. Dragon Blaze, Strikers 1945 II, Gunbird 2 - though obviously scoring is an afterthought in these games).

fact: scoring is the largest part of the game, however:
fact: claims to actively dislike scoring, therefore:
fact: can only like a small part of the game

I'm not sure if you are saying that this is the case, or is not the case. In any event, most modern shmups are built around their scoring systems so a discussion of them is necessary when evaluating the game in general. That's why if the system in place isn't really engaging, the game is going to feel 'plainer' or bland. But that doesn't mean you should force yourself to put up with a lousy system in order to "play the game like it was meant to be." It just means you've got a bland game on your hands. Especially since scoring is pretty much only good for bragging rights on the high-scores forum.