Questions that do not deserve a thread

[ZellSF]

I'm European and buy US PSN cards from Amazon. You need to think of a fake US address, but the codes are delivered digitally. If you're not comfortable with giving fake address information, there are import sites like Play-Asia (don't buy from them though, they're expensive) that sell PSN cards.

[Ed Oscuro]

Another day, another broken "maybe it works" SNES in the mail.

One of life's chief mysteries:

The Wega KV-27FS120 has a high deflection angle, and a very short tube. The Samsung TXJ2767, another 27" set, has a curved instead of flat screen, and probably also has a longer tube and more PCBs inside (the Wega's chassis has only two, as I've noted elsewhere). So guess which one weighs 30-40 pounds more than the other? The nearly flat tube, of course.

[Xan]

I think the extra weight on Trinitrons comes from the steel frame that's used to stabilize the aperture grille wires.

[Esupanitix]

Is it bad to tate LCD monitors? For reference, I use a Samsung SyncMaster S24B300.

I wanted to start tateing this for shmups, but I feel like something could go wrong if I just start doing things blindly.

[nZero]

It's not harmful to the monitor in any particular way, in fact it's much easier and safer to rotate a flat panel than a CRT. However, you might find that the limited vertical viewing angles and associated color shifts of a TN panel like yours becomes a severe annoyance once it's been rotated 90 degrees.

[Esupanitix]

It's not harmful to the monitor in any particular way, in fact it's much easier and safer to rotate a flat panel than a CRT. However, you might find that the limited vertical viewing angles and associated color shifts of a TN panel like yours becomes a severe annoyance once it's been rotated 90 degrees.

Yeah, I noticed that ^^'

Any good ways to hold it down in the case that I try again?

What I mean is "I have balance issues with trying to stand this monitor in tate"

[Xyga]

IMO the only really bad thing one can do to an LCD flat panel while manipulating it is to apply contrary forces/pressure along the frame.
Doing so can actually twist (even if by only 1mm) the whole panel and create thin openings on the sides, between the backlight and LCD layers.
Backlight bleeding nightmare. A winner is you.

[bobrocks95]

One of life's chief mysteries:

The Wega KV-27FS120 has a high deflection angle, and a very short tube. The Samsung TXJ2767, another 27" set, has a curved instead of flat screen, and probably also has a longer tube and more PCBs inside (the Wega's chassis has only two, as I've noted elsewhere). So guess which one weighs 30-40 pounds more than the other? The nearly flat tube, of course.

My 32" weighs around 175. I believe it, especially since I wouldn't think PCBs are adding that much on, maybe if they have large heatsinks on them?

Yeah, I noticed that ^^'

Any good ways to hold it down in the case that I try again?

What I mean is "I have balance issues with trying to stand this monitor in tate"

Well, there's always rotatable stands, but you might want to save that for when you have a monitor that isn't painful to look at sideways. As for temporary holding... I dunno, maybe propped against the wall with a heavy bookend or paperweight in front of it so it doesn't slide?

[Esupanitix]

Yeah, I noticed that ^^'

Any good ways to hold it down in the case that I try again?

What I mean is "I have balance issues with trying to stand this monitor in tate"

Well, there's always rotatable stands, but you might want to save that for when you have a monitor that isn't painful to look at sideways. As for temporary holding... I dunno, maybe propped against the wall with a heavy bookend or paperweight in front of it so it doesn't slide?

Thanks for the idea. Also, it may be painful to view sideways, but I nearly ALL'd Espgaluda for the first time when I was sitting at a distance of about 6ft (I use a USB Hori EX2 controller for all shmupping that isn't on a PS2). I liked how it looked. It must have been the fact that the angle was JUST RIGHT.

[bobrocks95]

Thanks for the idea. Also, it may be painful to view sideways, but I nearly ALL'd Espgaluda for the first time when I was sitting at a distance of about 6ft (I use a USB Hori EX2 controller for all shmupping that isn't on a PS2). I liked how it looked. It must have been the fact that the angle was JUST RIGHT.

There's definitely a sweet spot you can hit, glad you found it. Distance helps greatly, I just especially hate poor viewing angles and color distortion

[Ed Oscuro]

I think the extra weight on Trinitrons comes from the steel frame that's used to stabilize the aperture grille wires.

Could be, I suppose...it should be inside the tube mainly. The assembly bolting the tube to the front of the set's frame is pretty sturdy, but I don't think this would be terribly different from the Samsung.

I believe it, especially since I wouldn't think PCBs are adding that much on, maybe if they have large heatsinks on them?

I haven't been able to do a compare/contrast with a BA-5 chassis (or the old TXJ, which is long gone) but the heatsinks definitely don't make up the difference. There are a few large-ish heatsinks, but they won't weigh much. Just the standard black painted aluminum jobs with a few wings on them.

[Sixfortyfive]

I'd be interested in buying a camera for the sole purpose of testing lag on various setups. What would I specifically need to look for in one, or does anyone have any recommendations for a particular model?

[Xyga]

Why bother with a camera when you can have a dedicated device ?
http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php ... cts_id=212

[Sixfortyfive]

Because it's HDMI only, and I'm more interested in testing devices that connect to the TV/monitor, not the display itself.

[Xyga]

Well it can be used for testing any device if you have the required adapters/converters.
Compared to the camera/stopwatch method it is more reliable and accurate. Not to say much more convenient.

But yeah you need additional gear so that's a bigger investment...

[Fudoh]

Compared to the camera/stopwatch method it is more reliable and accurate

Really depends on the monitors or processors you want to test. Once you have to add D/A converters, scalers or even scan converters to Leo's I wouldn't agree to the quote above. I would actually say that a Nomad + Everdrive + Artemio's 240p test suite (plus a camera) is still the best, most reliable and easiest method if you want to test a wide range of monitors and processors.

As far as the camera goes, every current digicam should do the job. What you need is short exposure time while still catching a good amount of light.

[Artemio]

I'd be interested in buying a camera for the sole purpose of testing lag on various setups. What would I specifically need to look for in one, or does anyone have any recommendations for a particular model?

One factor that might affect your results depending on the speed is the type of sensor, either CCD or CMOS. Here is a link with information.

When the test was developed with Fudoh, I had both type of cameras at hand. And indeed, there was a difference in the lower part of the fields if the shutter speed was around 1/60th.

It isn't a major issue, but if this is the sole purpose of the camera it might be a good idea to consider it as a second factor after shutter speed.

Nomad + Everdrive + Artemio's 240p test suite (plus a camera)

You can also use any other version of the suite - if you don't have a Nomad and Everdrive - if you are able to split the video signal. This can easily be achieved with an RCA splitter for composite or even composite sync if using RGB, to a CRT and the device/display to be used. Yes, the signal is degraded, but not slowed down.

[Fudoh]

of course you can, but the Nomad solved the problem with the 2nd monitor, so it was really nice to use to run around the house and just test any device I could find

[Artemio]

Indeed, I've even taken it to stores and done it with the salesman watching. Of course Leo's tester has been there too.

[Einzelherz]

Another day, another broken "maybe it works" SNES in the mail.

One of life's chief mysteries:

The Wega KV-27FS120 has a high deflection angle, and a very short tube. The Samsung TXJ2767, another 27" set, has a curved instead of flat screen, and probably also has a longer tube and more PCBs inside (the Wega's chassis has only two, as I've noted elsewhere). So guess which one weighs 30-40 pounds more than the other? The nearly flat tube, of course.

IIRC flat screens are generally heavier because they have to thicken the glass (the heaviest material in most sets) significantly to get it to be flat.

[bobrocks95]

IIRC flat screens are generally heavier because they have to thicken the glass (the heaviest material in most sets) significantly to get it to be flat.

Ah yes, now that I think about it, the shorter the tube, I believe the higher the vacuum level needed. So the glass would need to be thicker and thus heavier. It's part of the reason FED and SED sets unfortunately stalled...

[Ed Oscuro]

IIRC flat screens are generally heavier because they have to thicken the glass (the heaviest material in most sets) significantly to get it to be flat.

Ah yes, now that I think about it, the shorter the tube, I believe the higher the vacuum level needed. So the glass would need to be thicker and thus heavier. It's part of the reason FED and SED sets unfortunately stalled...

Do you have any source for that vacuum level estimate? It doesn't make sense to me. Not only could the vacuum level remain constant, the shorter tube should also have a smaller surface area under atmospheric pressure (which can be a matter of tons, over the surface of the set, for many CRTs). The vacuum won't leak out of thin glass - the seals and initial quality will help determine that. Perhaps the higher vacuum level is required in order to maintain a similar internally vacant atmosphere from the perspective of the scanning beams.

I didn't know about vacuum level in FED designs, but I'd say that this presented mostly a production challenge. There wouldn't really be any problem sealing the sets up afterwards. Vacuum level requirements were not an issue for sedTV at all. In both designs, I'd say that the major engineering and cost challenge was simply figuring out a process that allowed economical production of sets with a whole panel's worth of emitters (in the case of FEDtvs, many emitters per subpixel). Just building that many separate electron guns is going to be expensive even with a semiconductor process.

[bobrocks95]

It's just conjecture on my part really, I probably should've phrased my post better. They could've just used thicker glass or made other parts heavier/higher quality for the heck of it, weren't Trinitrons ridiculously expensive up until a point when they had to start slashing prices?

[Ed Oscuro]

Sure. I think xan's idea may well be the most correct one, however. I didn't do comparisons, but I think that within the Trinitron line, short or flat tubes don't necessarily add weight compared to other Trinitrons, and weight of Trinitron types seems fairly consistent even across different types (i.e., from consumer sets to pro ones, when comparing similar size tubes). My original comparison was between a regular Samsung set which probably was a shadow mask (I wrote down the model somewhere here, can't remember it exactly) with the same stated diagonal as the WEGA. There's a fair number of variables at play, but the main ones seem to be internal anchoring, flat screen, phosphor mask types. My bet's on phosphor mask types; some of the other variables might end up having the Samsung tech heavier in fact.

Don't feel like I'm unhappy you posted - I learned something about FED tech!

[bobrocks95]

Sure. I think xan's idea may well be the most correct one, however. I didn't do comparisons, but I think that within the Trinitron line, short or flat tubes don't necessarily add weight compared to other Trinitrons, and weight of Trinitron types seems fairly consistent even across different types (i.e., from consumer sets to pro ones, when comparing similar size tubes). My original comparison was between a regular Samsung set which probably was a shadow mask (I wrote down the model somewhere here, can't remember it exactly) with the same stated diagonal as the WEGA. There's a fair number of variables at play, but the main ones seem to be internal anchoring, flat screen, phosphor mask types. My bet's on phosphor mask types; some of the other variables might end up having the Samsung tech heavier in fact.

Don't feel like I'm unhappy you posted - I learned something about FED tech!

I didn't think you were grilling me or anything, just figured clarification couldn't hurt! And such a shame we'll probably never see F/SED. It seemed like they didn't have a native panel res, though I might be wrong about that.

And one more thing I forgot- Trinitron tubes are larger than what you can see. My 32" for instance actually has a 34" tube inside it according to the service manual. No clue if other CRT's do the same but it's another possibility on the weight.

[Ed Oscuro]

Trinitron tubes are larger than what you can see. My 32" for instance actually has a 34" tube inside it according to the service manual. No clue if other CRT's do the same but it's another possibility on the weight.

Well, I'm able to look at the back of both of these Trinitrons right now (since I've got both chassis exposed). Yes, they are bigger than what you see - though I think the same is true of the regular curved tubes a bit as well. (I haven't really looked in the back of a shadow mask set.) They have to maintain good fitment with the housing, and typically the designs are recessed so that tube's supports are inside the case, no matter the tube type. (There haven't been any "naked tube" type sets for a long time, though a few existed back in the '50s at least.)

Still, when you size up Trinitrons, you get a particular weight gain - some percentage increase in weight for the whole set for each bump up in weight. But the difference in weight between this set and the Samsung it replaced is nearly 2:1!

Thinking more carefully - there are wires in the Trinitron to separate each and every subpixel from its neighbors (horizontally). That's a LOT of wire - and a lot to secure. That's probably the source of the additional weight, along with the other components needed to secure those wires.

Oh, and about FED / sedTV: The subpixel triad / stripe arrangements would have been rather like LCD screens and CRTs. What's different is that there's no continuously scanning beam to determine lines; pixels would have to be readout to addressable locations rather like (or maybe exactly like) on a LCD (or maybe a plasma; I'm not sure about the difference there, if any). With a CRT, the smallest arrangement of pixel triads / stripes essentially limits how fine the picture's resolution can be - so if you have say 800 triads / stripes running across the screen, you could resolve 400 black lines and 400 white lines next to them. But you can also display all kinds of other resolutions pretty well by just deflecting the beams at different times.

In short the sedTV / FED needs to upscale like any other modern panel.

Probably the technology that holds the most promise for retrogaming is laser TV, which seems to be quite like CRT except with mirror-deflected lasers in place of the electron guns. Depending on how the mirrors are made, it could possibly sync to many different rates (though on further reading I'm not sure it'd be as flexible as a good multisync CRT in adjusting for deflection).

[McCracAttack]

I have a question regarding the use of an Extron VSC 700 and RGB 201rxi interface to produce a 240p picture. I'm pretty much attempting to copy what Fudoh outlined in this article.

I'm starting with a 640x480 signal from a PC and running it through this equipment to a Sony BVM. When I use just the VSC I get a pretty good looking picture that looks to be 480i as expected. If I add the RGB interface I get a picture that looks 240p but massive flicker is introduced and the picture is worse overall as a result. No amount of adjustment with the VSC's filters can correct it. If I toggle the DDSP DIP switch on the back of the RGB interface to 'ON' the picture returns to 480i but because the flicker is gone it looks much better. Have I missed a setting?

Also, I'm sorry if this has been discussed. I did try to Google these forums but I couldn't find a solution. Thanks in advance.

[Fudoh]

It's a matter of adjusting the vertical filter on the VSC700 along with forcing a perfect line mapping on both units.

While in 480i mode, try to adjust the vertical filter. At the max setting it will deliver two identical fields, making the picture look "240p-ish" already (but still 480i). Now add the interface. If you get flicker at this point, try to change the vertical position of the 700's output slightly. At one point it will be perfect.

You also have to make that your input signal into the VSC is 100% linedoubled (if you're using a genuine 240p) source, in other words, if you use an emulator, it MUST output a straight 1:2 resolution (e.g. if your game's running in 224p, the output has to be 448p with black borders). In MAME you have to use DirectDraw instead of D3D to get this.

You also must never use the zoom function on the VSC, otherwise your line mapping will be off again.

[Xyga]

Compared to the camera/stopwatch method it is more reliable and accurate

Really depends on the monitors or processors you want to test. Once you have to add D/A converters, scalers or even scan converters to Leo's I wouldn't agree to the quote above. I would actually say that a Nomad + Everdrive + Artemio's 240p test suite (plus a camera) is still the best, most reliable and easiest method if you want to test a wide range of monitors and processors.

That's interesting. IIRC you suggested various websites/users don't necessarily use the LB tester correctly, but I've missed the part with the Nomad. Could you please link to the related discussion or follow in the LB thread ?
Thanks a lot.

[Sixfortyfive]

I assume the Nomad test would be as simple as loading the 240p suite's lag timer on a flash cart, running A/V out to the TV and/or converter that you want to test, putting both screens in view, and snapping some pictures.

It's a really elegant idea now that I think about it, especially when it comes to testing additional equipment like upscalers and not being limited to just HDMI TVs. I had previously pondered whether something similar would be possible by hacking up a Genesis multi-tap so that it functioned as a signal splitter to two separate consoles instead, but a Nomad would be way simpler.