Crimzon Clover: World Ignition Announced at Stunfest

[Squire Grooktook]

You're complaining that it feels too simple/not strategic, and that there's no complexity or depth to master. But you don't even know how the scoring works/what it entails?

Going for score is always going to require more strategy, in any shmup, I don't think it's a very fair argument. :\
I also don't know the intricacies of playing for score in Hellsinker, but that's because playing for survival is already so filled with strategy that I didn't feel the need to go deeper. At least not yet. :p
Playing for survival in CC really doesn't have much more complexity to it aside from the breaking thing. Unless I'm somehow missing something.

99% of shmups survival is simple compared to scoring, and pure survival play is intended to be a more simple, basic play style. Anything different is an exception to the rule, not the standard to which other games are to be judged against. Dodonpachi and Mushihimesama are very, very simple to play for survival, but they are everybody's favorite shmups in the world (well, not mine, but still).

Survival however, can be very strategic. Knowing the best ways to dodge patterns (people often underestimate how much complexity there is in analyzing the way a pattern works and knowing what the most effective strats against it are), the best routes, etc. can require a lot of critical thinking, and CC is no exception. Unless you're an utterly amazing pro player, you're not going to 1cc this game anytime soon without a heck of a lot of strategy and planning.

Scoring is almost always where the immense complexity and depths comes in. Scoring is where shmups gets competitive, and that's where they become as deep as an ocean.

No-death bonuses and the star pickups are the most obvious way to build score I know, but both requiring no strategy.

ignoring for a moment that knowing how to consistently no miss stages would require a lot of strategy for most players

Than you have no idea what you're doing lol. I mean, no offense, but don't you think it's a bit premature to go into a thread and start saying the game has no depth or strategy when, by your own admission, you have no idea how any of the mechanics actually work? Nor have you succeeded in 1cc'ing it either, most games do not require strategy for pure survival on the first 3 stages, even Hellsinker

Read some strat guides or something. It's all about getting the multiplier up with lock ons, point blanking to extend the multiplier length and fill the break guage, and using the break activation invincibility frames and speed to initiate a higher lock on multiplier and keep it going with more point blanking. It's very simple, intuitive, and flexible once you learn it, but the skill ceiling is insanely high and it could take years to master. I honestly like this scoring system better than Ketsui, and I like the breaks a lot more than the hypers in DDP now that I know how they are meant to be used.

[Kuroonehalf]

Lock-on to as many enemies as possible and release: the big green multiplier is defined by how many enemies you hit.
Break rate just increases for killing stuff, faster in break & double break mode

So ideally you want to break and double break when you have the chance of hitting the most enemies?

[Squire Grooktook]

Lock-on to as many enemies as possible and release: the big green multiplier is defined by how many enemies you hit.
Break rate just increases for killing stuff, faster in break & double break mode

So ideally you want to break and double break when you have the chance of hitting the most enemies?

Yeah, basically. A good introduction to this is the rush of kamikaze enemies midway through stage 1. You want to initiate a double break just as (or around when) they start showing up, use the invincibility frames to just barely score a maximum lock on, than start gunning them. Ideally you do this all at the top of the screen since that will keep the multiplier lasting longer (ideally till the very end of the rush).

[Kuroonehalf]

99% of shmups survival is simple compared to scoring, and pure survival play is intended to be a more simple, basic play style. Anything different is an exception to the rule, not the standard to which other games are to be judged against.

Everyone has different standards with which to judge other games against. I have things I really enjoy about certain shmups and it's normal that that's going to color how I look and evaluate other shmups. If some new shmup comes out with, say an amazing soundtrack, then that's going to influence how I see other shmups' soundtracks from then on.

ignoring for a moment that knowing how to consistently no miss stages would require a lot of strategy for most players

Is not dying really considered a strategy?

I mean, no offense, but don't you think it's a bit premature to go into a thread and start saying the game has no depth or strategy when, by your own admission, you have no idea how any of the mechanics actually work? Nor have you succeeded in 1cc'ing it either, most games do not require strategy for pure survival on the first 3 stages, even Hellsinker[/size]

I voiced the conclusions I've made from the few hours I've played the game so far. This is a chat board so I would think this sort of stuff is normal, expected even. Maybe I should have mentioned my conclusions were drawn purely from playing for survival, but I think the playtime would have given that away.
And honestly, was I really that far off? Those scoring strats you mention really are not relevant for survival, are they?* The reason I haven't 1cc'd arcade difficulty is because I haven't had enough time to get sufficiently familiar with certain attacks that need trial and error (like certain laser attacks that happen at specific times in attack phases and are hard to dodge without previously knowing they're about to come out) and because my dodging is not quite up to par yet. I lack the skill to pull a flawless run still. But I don't think it unqualifies me from talking about the game's mechanics and strategy.

*Thanks for going more in-depth on how they work.

[CStarFlare]

Not dying is a goal; how you achieve that would be the strategy.

Even straight survival play with no scoring motive will involve some strategy - you'll want to know when you need a bomb and make sure one is available, when you don't want to be in a specific part of the screen, when it's safer to get close to speedkill an enemy, etc. Some games are easy enough that you can survive without any thought at all, but Crimzon Clover isn't really one of them.

[Squire Grooktook]

99% of shmups survival is simple compared to scoring, and pure survival play is intended to be a more simple, basic play style. Anything different is an exception to the rule, not the standard to which other games are to be judged against.

Everyone has different standards with which to judge other games against. I have things I really enjoy about certain shmups and it's normal that that's going to color how I look and evaluate other shmups.

That's fine, but like I said, 99% of the shmups out there are not like Hellsinker where every character is practically a different game mode, so IMO it's a bit unfair to critisize CC for that when almost every other shmup out there is the same in that regard. If anything CC is a bit more complex than some of the most influential games of the bullet hell sub genre. Dodonpachi, Mushihimesama, Touhou, etc. are not any more complex played for survival, all their mechanics basically amounting to dodge/shoot/bomb.

Is not dying really considered a strategy?

It's how you avoid dying where strategy comes in. Like I said, unless you have world record level reflexes/sight reading/execution skills, than you are going to have to put critical thinking and planning (which is about as close as strategy as you can get in a single player genre) in order to optimally deal with everything in the game.

Like for example. Take certain patterns in Touhou on lunatic. Sure, you could just flail around and try to rely completely on improvisation to get through, but if you want to increase your odds and become more consistent you're going to have to sit down and think about the way the bullets move, where they spawn from, what areas are safe and when, etc. and really figure them out in order to create optimal strategies for dodging them. And that's simply a standard bullet pattern launched by a boss, there's also stuff like risk/reward in going for score for extends, resource management in bombs, routing paths through stages, etc.

To me, the whole point of the shmup genre is that the basic gameplay is simple but what you actually do is very complex.

I voiced the conclusions I've made from the few hours I've played the game so far. This is a chat board so I would think this sort of stuff is normal, expected even. Maybe I should have mentioned my conclusions were drawn purely from playing for survival, but I think the playtime would have given that away.

Don't get me wrong, it's no sin, but for me personally if I had a bad first impression of a game like this, I would rather phrase it in the form of a question like "I'm not getting the hype, what am I missing?" and try to get a second opinion, rather than immediately launching into a review/analysis with limited or possibly flawed information.

And honestly, was I really that far off? Those scoring strats you mention really are not relevant for survival, are they?* The reason I haven't 1cc'd arcade difficulty is because I haven't had enough time to get sufficiently familiar with certain attacks that need trial and error (like certain laser attacks that happen at specific times in attack phases and are hard to dodge without previously knowing they're about to come out) and because my dodging is not quite up to par yet. I lack the skill to pull a flawless run still. But I don't think it unqualifies me from talking about the game's mechanics and strategy.

*Thanks for going more in-depth on how they work.

You're welcome. And yes, the scoring strategies are separate from pure survival, as they often are in danmaku games (risk vs reward design). Like I said, I just like to try and learn all I can (or at least what I need to know) about a game before I judge it or criticize it. I mean, I could pick up Hellsinker without knowing anything about it, coast through the first 2-3 stages as Deadliar and than say there's nothing complex/interesting here lol.

Believe me, I don't mean to be a jerk or anything ("LOL GET GOOD CASUAL"), ha ha. I'm just doing what I can to defend the game and maybe encourage you to give it a second chance. It's all good.

[Kuroonehalf]

I mean, I could pick up Hellsinker without knowing anything about it, coast through the first 2-3 stages as Deadliar and than say there's nothing complex/interesting here lol.

Hey, big difference here. 3 stages in Hellsinker is only seeing 3/9ths of the campaign (and that's not counting the 3 distinct LEAD stages that you unlock after beating stage 4). I actually played through the entirety of CC's stages with the use of the unlimited continues (another design decision I'm not very fond of actually, but that's a talk for another day) before voicing my opinion. I've played through all of the attack phases several times, but again, I just haven't the skill to pull off a flawless run yet.

And I am giving it a second chance, my main goal at the moment is still to 1cc it. :p

[mastermx]

You aren't meant to credit feed through CC. There's a training mode there for a reason. Most people self impose the no continues rule.

[Squire Grooktook]

I mean, I could pick up Hellsinker without knowing anything about it, coast through the first 2-3 stages as Deadliar and than say there's nothing complex/interesting here lol.

Hey, big difference here. 3 stages in Hellsinker is only seeing 3/9ths of the campaign (and that's not counting the 3 distinct LEAD stages that you unlock after beating stage 4).

Point is, regardless of length, you're not getting a good idea of the game from only getting 3 stages in a real run with barely any idea how the game works.

Also yeah, you're not really experiencing it with unlimited credits. Even if you try to pay attention, you're not really "trying" or motivated because you essentially have infinite life. I never really judge a stage till I've played it "for real" with pressure and excitement from trying to beat it.

As a design decision, infinite credits are mostly there for practice since the games themselves don't acknowledge it as a win either (score erased = not completed, and no tlb either).

You aren't meant to credit feed through shmups. Most people self impose the no continues rule.

Just a slight fix lol

[mastermx]

Lol thanks for the fix squire, the rule applies to all arcade games, especially shmups.

[Bonus!]

Scaling it to the current desktop resolution or add a command line option to specify any resolution other than the native one for fullscreen would fix many issues, I think.

Scaling bitmap graphics, either down or up, isn't as staightforward as with vector-based games, meaning that the results might not always look pretty. There is a reason why you can't play below native res (i.e. downscaled) in any 2d game I know.

[cools]

Scaling it to the current desktop resolution or add a command line option to specify any resolution other than the native one for fullscreen would fix many issues, I think.

Yup. Just pull the windowed scaling code across to full screen mode and use that. Recommend the game be run in 1280x720 but actually run it in whatever the desktop is.

No need for testing on lower resolutions, just allow it to happen.

Windowed mode scales nicely already with the original assets.

[emphatic]

Windowed mode scales nicely already with the original assets.

Exactly. The people who wants to run this in 240p knows it'll be downscaled by a cray-cray amount, so they will have to deal with it. Not having to choose between window and fullscreen should never be a start up option either, just slap it into the in-game options, like rotation.

[mortified_penguin]

I genuinely feel for PC developers. Need to go dumpster diving to find a 640x480 monitor to test with in 2014.

In other words, you see the value of developing on consoles with fixed devices/resources?

You meet minimum specs or you don't, simple as that. Should I get upset I can't cram my NES carts into my wii? Hyperbole sure, but it's the same difference.

[chum]

Oops looks like I forgot about this one

Have any Boost replays surfaced yet, I want to copy replays :3

[Cagar]

-

[Zaarock]

You don't need replays for boost mode scoring

Good luck getting over 500million on the first stage

[Kuroonehalf]

Been playing a bit more Boost mode. I retract what I said, this mode does have quite a good number of different attacks phases. Some of them really tricky too.

Also, is it just me or does breaking/bombing have a slight delay to it? So many times I could have sworn I pressed the button in time and yet I got hit.

[cools]

Managed to figure out how to get my cab monitor running at a higher resolution than the game requires. It won't do full screen at all, even with black borders.

Runs fine unscaled in a window though.

[Blackbird]

Has anyone checked out the leaderboards for Unlimited Type II? There's an absolute monster score on there by some player named "Seldia", getting over 9 trillion with a 71k break rate. I didn't realize that was even possible o_O. I'd like to see what he's doing to get a break rate that high, lol.

[endoKarb]

Yup, pretty crazy. It might be GFA-ISO's score. He uses all sort of weird nicknames and he has the Unlimited WR with all ship types.

Too bad you can't download replays :/

[Icarus]

There's a 9chou Type II Unlimited replay on nico, if you want to watch something close to it.
Just search for クリムゾンクローバー
Also FYI: ISO plays with Type Z, not II.

[Squire Grooktook]

Also, is it just me or does breaking/bombing have a slight delay to it? So many times I could have sword I pressed the button in time and yet I got hit.

I don't think there is, but it's definitely easy to feel that way. Playing Cave games and stuff after something with death bombs always feels so mean like that, especially when fast bullets are involved.

[endoKarb]

Also FYI: ISO plays with Type Z, not II.

nope.

Crimzon Clover for NESiCA UNLIMITED･TYPE-Ⅰ 10,085,938,452,390 ＧＦＡ２－ＩＳＯ '14.06.A
Crimzon Clover for NESiCA UNLIMITED･TYPE-Ⅱ 10,026,715,815,060 ＧＦＡ２－ＩＳＯ '14.06.A
Crimzon Clover for NESiCA UNLIMITED･TYPE-Ⅲ 8,250,965,148,680 ＧＦＡ２－ＩＳＯ '14.06.A
Crimzon Clover for NESiCA UNLIMITED･TYPE-Z 10,208,691,229,910 ＧＦＡ２－ＩＳＯ '14.06.A

[Icarus]

Hah yeah, I just quickly checked the Hall of Fame. I forgot he's obliterated Unlimited with every ship. :3

[endoKarb]

Hah yeah, I just quickly checked the Hall of Fame. I forgot he's obliterated Unlimited with every ship. :3

hehe. that guy's insane ^^
we really need to bring him to Stunfest.

[Icarus]

GFA2-ISO (CCWI Unlimited), Yusemi-SWY (Guwange) and NER.K (RFJ) would be my dream trio for next year. :3

[-S.L-]

Agreed with Icarus, although i'd be happy with any run from Zap or Pez ! I've seen (from my own eyes) Yusemi SWY playing SDOJ expert, it was so brutal, he wasn't even looking at his screen but his friend's on the other cab and making fun of him....

Anyway, ISO 's Unimited Score confirmed my thoughts on Type III with Unlimited... I'll stick with III for boost as I feel it's the best ship for this mode and Z for Unlimited.

[cave hermit]

Anyone know how to get bosses/midbosses to drop a 1-up along with the other items? I used to see it before the patch, but since then I haven't gotten it to drop.
Also, what does the E powerup do exactly?

[BulletMagnet]

Also, what does the E powerup do exactly?

Adds to your energy meter for bombs/breaks.