PCB vs Port vs MAME

[Despatche]

I feel like I'm having more fun but I mostly prefer it for the authenticity/purity of the original arcade hardware - it just feels good. Also, when I get a hi score, I like that it's on a original and official format which serves as the standard for hi score threads and competitive scoring. It's why people try to tweak MAME to mirror the slowdown and performance of the PCB (including glitching bullets like in Ra.De) in order to compete. Except with the board there isn't any tweaking or adjusting. Other than testing voltage and adjusting the monitor, it's pretty much plug in and play.

So how does it feel to know that MAME is the actual standard, and that not many care for PCBs anymore?

[Some-Mist]

I feel like I'm having more fun but I mostly prefer it for the authenticity/purity of the original arcade hardware - it just feels good. Also, when I get a hi score, I like that it's on a original and official format which serves as the standard for hi score threads and competitive scoring. It's why people try to tweak MAME to mirror the slowdown and performance of the PCB (including glitching bullets like in Ra.De) in order to compete. Except with the board there isn't any tweaking or adjusting. Other than testing voltage and adjusting the monitor, it's pretty much plug in and play.

So how does it feel to know that MAME is the actual standard, and that not many care for PCBs anymore?

I think that MAME still feels like a janky and an unofficial workaround. I've actually never been able to dedicate myself or take MAME seriously because it just feels too tacky for me to "try and get good" playing an unofficial version in an emulator. It's a great tool for testing out potential PCBs I want to buy though.

It would make sense that it would become the "standard" since it's an expensive hobby that not many can afford, but for my example in progear... were mld and RAR's 100 mil club scores (that I'm sadly trying to obtain) set in MAME? or on a PCB? STV - the highest active non-100-mil player (but so close) plays on PCB afaik (and he gives awesome progear advice too ). those are the scores and the standards I'm trying to compete with.

edit: it would be awesome if "serious" players actually started using MAME as the standard since more PCBs would probably start popping up/driving the price down.

[trap15]

Except MAME can never be the standard due to constantly being broken and becoming more broken.

[Dave_K.]

So how does it feel to know that MAME is the actual standard, and that not many care for PCBs anymore?

I still feel that MAME feels like a janky and an unofficial workaround.

I figured this thread was destined for PCB elitist/bashing. Please knock it off or I will lock the thread.

[Some-Mist]

the only reason I answered that way is because he asked and I wanted to give my honest opinion ._.

I'm not trying to bash or be an elitist by any means - MAME definitely isn't for me and that's how I feel. Just like how PCB collecting isn't for everyone.

[kilauea]

I haven't lived near a decent arcade since about 1984. So gaming for me for the longest time has been about home computers and then consoles. Now you want to see some dodgy ports? Look at some of the zx spectrum stuff from back in the day Some looked and played nothing like the arcade machine, but to me they were still great games as I had nothing to compare them to and no other way of playing them anyway.

Some people don't know they're born these days! The slow down isn't quite right? Sheesssh. ; )

[dannnnn]

So how does it feel to know that MAME is the actual standard, and that not many care for PCBs anymore?

Only for Western players. As for places like Japan and China where scoring is taken more seriously, not only are PCBs the standard, they are the only accepted format for score submissions.

[Some-Mist]

Some people don't know they're born these days! The slow down isn't quite right? Sheesssh. ; )

it's kind of a big deal if you're trying to play for score and compete with other players.

some minor examples:
notice how XBL Ikaruga scoreboards are separated from arcade/dc/gc/pc? It sucks that all versions aren't globally compared and I was pretty disappointed when I couldn't use my awesome XBL (stick + CRT) setup to compete with PCB owners. I really wanted to be able to use my 360 stick(s) to compete instead of having to stick with the DC/GC versions.

another example being the original US release of deathsmiles which had pretty much all slowdown removed. luckily it was patched, but there was absolutely no way to compare scores between versions. Even now.. the MAME release scores are on a board of their own with about 6 people who can't compare scores to the 120+ for PCB/360 owners.

also, imagine trying to play ibara without slowdown... because that's essentially how you'd have to play the game with the PS2 version. As if Ibara wasn't already difficult enough.

[kilauea]

Oh yeah I get all that, if you are serious about playing competitively you need to have a good think about what platform you play on.
But for 90% of people it really doesn't matter. As long as you are comparing your scores with players on the same platform them its all good.

[Some-Mist]

I wish I didn't care. I'd definitely have a lot more money in my pocket.

on here I also think a lot more than 10% care about the platform they're playing on, but the number of people who care outside of this board is probably pretty minuscule. I've met very few people in Chicago outside of this board who actually collect pcbs. And the majority of the time I meet those select few in arcades.

[kilauea]

No arcades round here

Shmuppers I know have got into them on consoles (saturns/dc's usually) first and discovered the arcade stuff (via mame) afterwards.
Only time I get to play the pcb's is the annual retro games show in the nearest city. I buy a weekend ticket and cram as many games in as I can in 2 days!

Cab would be lovely. My other half thinks otherwise...

[Some-Mist]

My other half thinks otherwise...

that's a hard battle to win

[matrigs]

I will actually always prefer ports simply for their limited options.

Everytime i try to launch a game in mame, i end up tweaking the graphical options, adding patches, then i realise that there is a new version out and i try that one which doesn't work with my roms anymore and yada yada.

I don't know how many hours i spend just trying to connect mame and make it look and feel right on my cab.

Even with their inacuracies i prefer ports over being just plug and play.

[theMot]

I always play on my cabs so I prefer PCB's/Carts where available. I do enjoy the cave ports on 360 though too, i'm not too good at shmups so I really like having those novice modes available! I have my 360 connected to my cab so it is kind of like playing a PCB but you have to go through all the menu's first. :/

Nothing quite beats just flicking on the cab and playing instantly.

[chempop]

For me it's pretty simple. Mame served its purpose for me over ten years ago when I discovered the likes of Cave, Raizing, etc.
I was able to dabble and try lots of great games.

I've always been more of a console gamer, though I did a bit of PC gaming back in the C64 through 286 days. First system I imported for was the Megadrive, I still am happy to import ports from NCSX or Play-Asia. In the past 25+ years, I've not been a PC gamer, so I've missed out on doujins and proper emulation.

A few years ago I got into supergun/cabs/pcb scene. Wish I had a lot sooner, when games were affordable and the community was much smaller. It is pretty great to have a favorite game on real arcade hardware. A dream come true 10 years after having checked out arcades in Tokyo in 2002. I also like putting consoles in cabs, especially to play games like Garegga, the 360 cave ports, and Dreamcast. I understand why some think it's silly, but I'd rather still make use of my console collection on ideal hardware.

Mame doesn't interest me anymore, though I understand the financial reasons and also the ability to use save-states, especially for those chasing world records and 2-Alls. For me, I'd rather play single credits the arcade way. I'm sorta known for giving mame users a hard time, but it's not exactly serious.

[theMot]

I also like putting consoles in cabs, especially to play games like Garegga, the 360 cave ports, and Dreamcast. I understand why some think it's silly, but I'd rather still make use of my console collection on ideal hardware.
.

I don't think it's silly, I find I play better on the cab being close to the action, the screen is the right size too. Sitting on the lounge with a stick a few feet away isn't the same.

[Despatche]

I figured this thread was destined for PCB elitist/bashing. Please knock it off or I will lock the thread.

I really hate these kinds of topics, because the entire point of them is light fanboyism. For the record, I was only pointing out things as they are, per the following:

Except MAME can never be the standard due to constantly being broken and becoming more broken.

Sadly, not many care. Even more sad is that MAME would probably be a lot better if they did!

Only for Western players. As for places like Japan and China where scoring is taken more seriously, not only are PCBs the standard, they are the only accepted format for score submissions.

The problem is that they're considered "minorities" in these types of contexts as the US is still treated as the frontman for a lot of things, despite the frequent public criticism. It really doesn't help that "the West" tends to be defined as "everything that isn't East Asia" in these said contexts.

[PurpleTheGuy]

For me, I usually get the console ports, for those are, of course, the most accessible ways to play the games I think, besides downloading stuff and whatnot. That, and I do really like the limited edition stuff, for that draws that "I must have it" part of me out. That, and I'm a console person, as well as me liking to use gamepads on everything I play, console-wise, PC-wise, etc., so yeah, I would naturally gravitate towards ports, particularly console and PC ports, and something else around those lines.

MAME, I haven't gotten to really look into. I have to get mine's working, then we'll how that goes, though, it certainly is pretty nice to have, particularly if the game(s) in-question I like to play isn't available anywhere else, and also because, well, I do run into budgetary issues sometimes, and some games may turn out to be so rare that I may not be able to reach (though I try my very best to), and/or I don't currently have that particular console to playthat particular game right now, and it catches my interest to where I like to try them, so yeah. The savestate feature looks very promising for practice, no doubt.

Now PCBs, whew, man, now that's a whole another level for me altogether. The prices for each of these PCBs (ex: That Ketsui PCB I see up on eBay is like, what, $1100+?! ), and then getting the aracde machine is, to me, like, woah, dang, this is some serious stuff we're talking here, literally the original thing hardcore! It looks pretty cool, but I don't think I'll be able to afford this sort of thing. I mean, yeah, I can go as far as getting Limited Edition ports and physical copies of games I like a lot that I have downloaded, no doubt, which often happens, and I like them for collective purposes as well, along with show-and-tell at the arcade place to introduce those same games to new people who are interested, but man, I'm not that badass to get PCBs, so I respect those who somehow can get PCBs (I mean, holy dang), and I can't really say much else, since I haven't tried one, other than, man, those prices...whew. I mean, wow, that's incredible, like, "How do you manage to afford them? Are you some kind of financial wizard or what? I mean, wow!" I would think you guys have some awesome high-paying job or something to get those PCBs, I mean, dang, and that's not even factoring that I'll need to get really good at using arcade sticks, too!

[theMot]

Now PCBs, whew, man, now that's a whole another level for me altogether. The prices for each of these PCBs (ex: That Ketsui PCB I see up on eBay is like, what, $1100+?! ), and then getting the aracde machine is, to me, like, woah, dang, this is some serious stuff we're talking here, literally the original thing hardcore! It looks pretty cool, but I don't think I'll be able to afford this sort of thing. I mean, yeah, I can go as far as getting Limited Edition ports and physical copies of games I like a lot that I have downloaded, no doubt, which often happens, and I like them for collective purposes as well, along with show-and-tell at the arcade place to introduce those same games to new people who are interested, but man, I'm not that badass to get PCBs, so I respect those who somehow can get PCBs (I mean, holy dang), and I can't really say much else, since I haven't tried one, other than, man, those prices...whew. I mean, wow, that's incredible, like, "How do you manage to afford them? Are you some kind of financial wizard or what? I mean, wow!" I would think you guys have some awesome high-paying job or something to get those PCBs, I mean, dang, and that's not even factoring that I'll need to get really good at using arcade sticks, too!

I get what you are saying but I look at it this way - These days I (like most of us I guess) am very time poor. I don't buy or desire to buy a lot of games, so I am ok with spending more on each one because I am getting the real thing, the old saying about the more you have the less you play is totally true, I would rather master 3 or 4 games in a year than just sail through 10 or 20 in that time and not really enjoy them. I guess I just like playing on boards too because the game boots instantly and there is no fussing around with menus etc. I am getting the real arcade experience.

[chempop]

I respect those who somehow can get PCBs (I mean, holy dang), and I can't really say much else, since I haven't tried one, other than, man, those prices...whew. I mean, wow, that's incredible, like, "How do you manage to afford them? Are you some kind of financial wizard or what? I mean, wow!" I would think you guys have some awesome high-paying job or something to get those PCBs, I mean, dang...

[PurpleTheGuy]

I get what you are saying but I look at it this way - These days I (like most of us I guess) am very time poor. I don't buy or desire to buy a lot of games, so I am ok with spending more on each one because I am getting the real thing, the old saying about the more you have the less you play is totally true, I would rather master 3 or 4 games in a year than just sail through 10 or 20 in that time and not really enjoy them. I guess I just like playing on boards too because the game boots instantly and there is no fussing around with menus etc. I am getting the real arcade experience.

Hmm, I think that makes sense. I can see where that's coming from. It sure takes a special kind of enthusiast to reach up to that plane. I guess, if the will is there, and if you really appreciate the game(s) enough, then I'd think one would do whatever it takes to get to that level, like getting the real arcade experience you're describing. It sure makes me wonder a bit about some who get really good at a few certain games, like, seriously good. Well, anyhow, I'm still rather somewhat recent to shmups (I got back into the shmup genre, as of last summer), so I got quite a lot to learn on the way.

Well, yeah, man, I think that actually sums it up for me, honestly, haha . I mean, that's some real stuff we're talking here, PCBs. That, and the arcade machines is 1000s of dollars right there. I don't know what else to say otherwise, to where, yeah, my post did sound very cheesy, lol. I've seen the pictures you provided about your very own arcade machine in another thread, and, well, yeah.

[theMot]

I predict you will have a cab of your own by the end of the year...You hang out on these forums and it just kind of happens...then it happens again...and again.

[Some-Mist]

The problem is that they're considered "minorities" in these types of contexts as the US is still treated as the frontman for a lot of things, despite the frequent public criticism. It really doesn't help that "the West" tends to be defined as "everything that isn't East Asia" in these said contexts.

still... for this genre, the US isn't treated as a front man. shmups aren't released via retail over here with the exception of few and far titles. region-locked games, region-free games that are only available if you import, developers trying to market to the west (i.e. sine mora) and failing pretty bad sort of prove otherwise. The only developer that even seems to be trying to actively reach out worldwide is Treasure, and they haven't released a new shmup since gradius V in 2004 (unless you count bangai-o a shmup). and in the shmup genre treasure is mainly living off of their backlog.

the main market (in the developers eyes at least) is still Japan. If it weren't we would see a bigger influx of shmup releases over here. even then.. many of the high scores are still held by a lot of Japanese players as well as clears that may seem impossible (i.e. ddpdoj death label). they set many of the standards that the US players play by... unless you're someone who "can care less about playing for score". the US is not as relevant in the shmup genre as we are in other genres.

Well, yeah, man, I think that actually sums it up for me, honestly, haha . I mean, that's some real stuff we're talking here, PCBs. That, and the arcade machines is 1000s of dollars right there. I don't know what else to say otherwise, to where, yeah, my post did sound very cheesy, lol. I've seen the pictures you provided about your very own arcade machine in another thread, and, well, yeah.

you used to be able to find vogatek superguns which would allow you to connect a PCB to a TV/monitor for around $70-100. you would need a compatible stick and some cables, but you can even find cheap boards (CAVE boards aren't so cheap) and get an "arcade setup" going. you'd have to search pretty hard, but there are other cheap solutions that don't require buying a cab.
I bought a strikers 1999 board for $100 (definitely under the price of a lot of your limited editions) a couple of months ago. something to also keep in mind is that the boards retain value as long as you keep it in good/working condition. I'm not gonna lose money on my (now expensive) battle garegga board unless it busts. Even then I can still probably get a good amount for it even with repairs. that would go on to fund other future board buys.

cabs can be $1000 depending on the model you pick or where you're located, but I think you can typically find some candy cabs for around $400 or so in Japan. But when you take shipping, customs, etc.. into account, that will double your price. And you never know - with cdamm from Windy City Gaming importing crates of cabs from Japan to the midwest and distributing from Chicago, they might become a bit easier to find in the midwest then they have been in the past. my new astro city cost me $700 (plus $75 shipping being in Chicago). that's pretty much the same price as 5-6 limited editions that you may or may not have.

[chempop]

PS4 costs what, $400? Plus all the accessories and a HD TV... I don't own current gen systems, but I think a couple of my cabs cost about the same (possible less) than a modern console setup.

As for PCBs, there are a decent number of great games between the $50-100 range (Raiden, Strikers, etc), and tons of great titles in the $100-200 range (Dimahoo, 19XX, Gunbird 2, Raiden Fighters, etc). So instead of buying 2-4 console games that maybe get played and shelved, or traded in for a small fraction of their original cost), PCB collectors typically buy fewer games that they play for longer stretches of time and retain their value (and usually increase).

Then there are PCB collectors that don't play their games at all lol.

[Ed Oscuro]

No, you don't make a company solely devoted to rereleasing old games; you never said that, and I never said that.

You're not so stupid that you don't understand that was the point, are you? That's the majority of SNK Playmore's business; IREM apparently makes plenty of money off old media without caring about making new games; and some company called G-Mode bought up Data East's catalog to flog. There are plenty of companies which buy the rights to old games, and while this can help keep funding coming, sales from media much older than 20 years is not going to drive new development. It doesn't benefit original (retired) developers when the franchises they created get traded like lame horses, and the residual sales after years and years don't provoke companies to develop new stuff now. Recent development is what gives the bulk of funds for new developments. Come on, you're not this stupid.

Funny thing that you went from saying "there isn't a market for shmups anymore" to "so maybe if we leave copyright totally unreformed it will lure some people back into making them." No, it will just continue exploitation, same as in pretty much every other area of copyright, where people can't see old TV shows because somebody couldn't get a renewal on rights to some decades-old music, where George Lucas tried to remove the original versions of his film from existence in an abuse of authorial control, and where fortune heirs are given incentives to do nothing creative and subsist on the residuals from other peoples' labors. That is a broken system.

In case you were confused, trademark / having some kind of IP mark is what allows a franchise to be revived after years. I'm not sure even that's necessary, as we've seen with the semi-rebirth of the Shock franchise with Bioshock, and with countless "spiritual sequels" on Kickstarter. People don't need a law to want to reward original developers / people with vision. But as a safeguard, trademark works reasonably well.

Also would appreciate it if you put away the attitude. You constantly make terrible posts and berate other people for not pretending that your uneducated opinions are immutable laws. It's hardly possible to have a constructive discussion when you refuse to look at the evidence or admit that your opinions don't determine reality.

[Keade]

Except MAME can never be the standard due to constantly being broken and becoming more broken.

What do you exactly mean by "broken" (broken from a technical standpoint ?), and how is it getting worse ? (honest questions).

PS. (unrelated) please use the "when you buy a game you support the dev." argument carefully: as outline above, it is not true with most games people are playing here, because they are not available new anymore.
This is getting less and less true due to DLC reissues, but these I find very disappointing for several reasons (DRM / tied to one hardware, high price tag, very limited choice, average emulation at best).

EDIT: clarification

[trap15]

Stuff is wrong compared to the PCB in various manners, is what I mean by broken. It's only been getting worse the past few years, they seem to not care about breaking things with all the stupid changes they've been making so everything regresses and you're left with a steaming shit-pile of broken drivers.

[IseeThings]

Stuff is wrong compared to the PCB in various manners, is what I mean by broken. It's only been getting worse the past few years, they seem to not care about breaking things with all the stupid changes they've been making so everything regresses and you're left with a steaming shit-pile of broken drivers.

I'm not sure that's entirely true.

Sure, there have been a lot of disruptive, and fairly pointless changes going on, sure the project politics suck, and sure having things like Galaga randomly broken in 0.153 is embarrassing, but overall we've seen plenty of actual improvements over the years (I know because I've been making a decent number of them over the years)

In terms of recent improvements to shmup emulation we've seen the preliminary G-Net sound, of course it still needs work, but it provides some good groundwork for future progress. In terms of new interesting clones we've seen Air Assault (thanks to your very own system11) and the Taito 'Yukiwo' prototype. In terms of previously unemulated games there's Wyvern F-0, Mega Phoenix and X2222 even if unfortunately the latter lacks any sound ROMs and is a debug build of the game.

The next version of MAME will have colours in Gradius / Nemesis closer to the actual PCB output thanks to the proper implementation of the colour output circuits as per the schematics. Along similar lines we also saw the discrete sound filters hooked up to 1942 recently.

I'm currently wanting to improve the Final Star Force emulation (I'm 99% sure the current intro sequence must be incorrect but could do with a reference to know what it should look like)

For many drivers there is still room for improvement, sprite limits are probably the most ignored thing, although emulating them to reproduce the exact glitches of a PCB is never easy and actually more likely to be met with a hostile reception (due to degrading the emulating experience, even if it ends up closer to the PCB) if history of us doing it is anything to go by!

In the end the project is only the sum of the people who actually contribute improvements to it.

If you want to support the developers of course the most obvious choice is to buy the official ports, new, as directly as possible. Buying PCBs typically doesn't help there (see NEiCA for what the arcade developers really think of the used PCB market) If you want a proper 100% authentic experience of course the PCBs are the way to go, although that isn't actually always the best experience, for example the piss-poor sound hardware on the Cave CV-1K boards is never going to sound as good as a properly done official port. OTOH some ports are so utterly diabolical in other ways (the Raiden Legagy pack) you'll want to avoid them even if they do have better audio than the PCBs can offer! In terms of emulation vs. PCBs you should also consider how unreliable some PCBs are, especially cheaply produced boards, or older ones where many of the components are in need of replacing.

I'd say it actually comes down to a per-game, per-situation choice, there's no 100% definite answer to the question here.

[Keade]

Well, if I understand trap15's post, most consoles/computers emulators are broken except a few ones aiming for accuracy above all else and living up to these exceptations.

About sprite limits: I wouldn't be surprised that many users were against it, but the MAME project page is quite clear about this: "Emulation accuracy trumps playability concerns in MAME"

------

I haven't really replied to the OP yet.
For me it is ports > emulator (that is, for good ports), but I do not own that many ports anyway - except PC games, I do not own many old (pre 2000) games generally speaking. If the port is not available new, I will favor emulation. Lastly, I do not consider DLC emulated games as ports.
Of course I care about emulators being accurate, but I do not care so much about the "true arcade experience" (display/input hardware, actual cabinet) that I would buy PCBs.
I think it all comes down to personal tastes and there is no general answer. Some ports are bad, some drivers are crap or nonexistent, and some PCBs are horribly expensive / hard to find / fragile.

[mastermx]

I'd say it actually comes down to a per-game, per-situation choice, there's no 100% definite answer to the question here.

Agreed. This is oh so very true.