RGB to YPrPb clarification

[quickbunnie]

Hello,
I'm new to the RGB quality classic consoles scene, and while I'm trying to be thorough about my research, I've come across some peculiarities that I simply can't find the answer to.

So I understand that my SNES and Genesis can output RGB @ 240p. This is great if you live in EU, where most CRTs would have SCART inputs, making everything quite easy to get great quality out of (console variations/limitations notwithstanding). Unfortunately, I live in the US, where SD CRTs only get S-Video and YPrPb component inputs. BTW, I have a good Sony Trinitron SDTV with component inputs. Unfortunately the Sony PVMs that are available for purchase have been heavily used and produce a poor picture. Perhaps somebody would be able to fix that, but its beyond my scope. No BVMs or NEC XM's anywhere near where I live.

So my simplest solution was to try to find a good quality SCART to component YPrPb converter that accepts and outputs 240p signals. Easier said than done. First things first, I think I have a rudimentary grasp on the following concepts, but if I'm in error, please let me know:

1) Most RGB colorspace converters no longer support 240p input/output, and when they do, they are often digital and/or expensive. I presume this is partially due to the change in the RGB to YUV colorspace equations (Rec.601 before, now Rec.709 - I know the formulas are digital, but it looks like the analog circuits are based off of these matrices). Is this correct?

2) Also, it seems to me that to get perfect RGB to YUV conversion, you might have to do it digitally. The reason I say this is because the digital YCbCr colorpace has headroom at both the low and high ends (1-15 and 236-254 for 8-bit luminance), which an analog signal transformation will never be able to replicate? (For example, a very dark RGB grey will appear YUV black). Or are the circuits designed to take these clamps into consideration for the conversion?

Now given these constraints, I'm still looking for what will work. I've come across about 6 simple SCART to component converters that are readily available for a more or less affordable cost.

1) CSY 2100 seems to be the most common. Some people say it works perfectly, others say it introduces artifacts.
2) CVS287 as common as the CSY 2100, maybe more. Similarly mixed results, seems to be a tad cheaper.
3) JROK's encoder - not quite SCART to component, but can be wired up with pure RGB signals. A bit cheaper than the other two, but again, some mixed results.
4) Neo Bitz - seems equivalent to JROK's?
5) JS Technologies SCART to Component converter - seems overpriced (100 euros on their website), but it does have audio jacks. Power supply is internal, which is likely better for producing clean DC rather than cheap AC adapters, but might be for 220V by default, which would be annoying for me in the US. They claim that its broadcast quality
6) Keene APTUS1 RGB SCART to component. This one seems very similar to 1) and 2), but does include a stereo jack for audio output. More expensive than 1-4, but still about half the cost of 5).

1 and 2 seem the easiest path, but also the most questionable quality. I assume a lot of mediocre reviews come from people who aren't adjusting the potentiometer to adjust for color over/under-saturation. The other issue is making sure they are receiving clean DC power - these are full analog circuits after all.
3 and 4 seem to be a little bit more consistent in the quality than 1 and 2, but still people have problems. In this case I imagine that both are because they are more custom built boards intended to be used in custom scenarios. Thus some more people know what they are doing, while more potential places things can go wrong.
5 I have not found much about, review wise. I don't even know if it includes pots for adjusting colors, or if it actually passes through 240p. The description reads: "Broadcast quality sync based upon the RGB to Plasma VGA unit's technology, superior to simplistic Sync Separators. Even in the presence of Macrovision copy protection, the RGB to Component Converter unit is able to keep true to the original source. Always stable, always sharp." Possibly will introduce some input lag?
6 Also not read much about, don't think its a straight clone of 1 or 2 since the input voltage is 12-18 V DC, but that doesn't really mean anything since they could've just made a simple addition.

There are some other good options that are much harder to find.
The Kramer FC-14 seems like its accepted as the best analog colorspace converter, and I figure the FC-15 was similar but with SCART, but neither are available anywhere I can see. That and they are still very expensive.
XRGB devices seems capable of doing many things, again, expensive and hard to find.

What do you guys think about the 6 SCART to component options? Do you know of any other ones? Any help is much appreciated!

I know that unmodified RGB is the best, but sadly, its just not that easy to find a decent RGB CRT...

[Fudoh]

For their availability, price and quality, I would recommend to go with one of those generic Scart to component CSY-2100 clones available on ebay.com for around $50. They're not 100% perfect compared to a Kramer FC14/15, but good enough to do the job.

Reg 2.) I never had any problems with that. As long as you don't use both genuine YUV and converted RGB signals on the same component input of your TV, you adjust your black and white level once for the converted signals and you're done. You shouldn't have problems with lost gradiants.

[evil_ash_xero]

I would get a CSY2100, and get it modded by someone like Game Tech, to have an audio out jack. Works great for me.

Problem with the CSYs, is that everyone overcharges the hell out of shipping. It's insane, for such a little box.
If you can find a person selling one of theirs, you can get it way cheaper.

EDIT: That being said, I AM selling the clone and an audio out on the Trading Forum. Shameless plug, I know.

I like the CSYs better, to be honest. The colors look a bit more "right" to me. But most people like the clones just fine.

[quickbunnie]

For their availability, price and quality, I would recommend to go with one of those generic Scart to component CSY-2100 clones available on ebay.com for around $50. They're not 100% perfect compared to a Kramer FC14/15, but good enough to do the job.

Reg 2.) I never had any problems with that. As long as you don't use both genuine YUV and converted RGB signals on the same component input of your TV, you adjust your black and white level once for the converted signals and you're done. You shouldn't have problems with lost gradients.

You're probably right about that. Without a reference picture, I think it would be hard for me perceive any gradient variation (if there is a difference at all). Still, I wonder if the clamps are integrated into the circuit, and if not, is it feasible to do so. Honestly, I'm not sure if the analog voltages for YPbPr ranges factor in clamps. All I found were 75% color bar voltages and nominal white voltages.

I think I'll get the CSY 2100. I can mode in RCA jacks for stereo, no problem (I'm not great at modding, but that one is pretty simple). It provides the simplest path to get near-RGB quality over component.

Anyone have any experience with the JS Technologies converter? If its really good, I am find with spending the money, but all I can find are a couple of forum posts saying that it didn't make a huge difference.

[headlesshobbs]

Just reminding you to do a double check that your crt can handle 240p over component. If you have a PS2, run a PS1 game through it and see if it picks up the signal properly.

[Thamiel]

CSY2100 clone is just fine, if the colours are a little off just open it up and tweak the RGB pots.

[evil_ash_xero]

cough hack


http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 72#p995072

[quickbunnie]

Just reminding you to do a double check that your crt can handle 240p over component. If you have a PS2, run a PS1 game through it and see if it picks up the signal properly.

Hmm, I thought the Sony non-hd Trinitron CRTs all did 240p over component, no? From what I'm reading, the compatibility started to be problematic on the HD CRTs. I don't have a ps2 actually. I don't think I currently have anything that would do 240p over component...

[Thamiel]

You'll be fine, used my CSY clone on multiple SD sets with component inputs. Never any trouble.

[quickbunnie]

You'll be fine, used my CSY clone on multiple SD sets with component inputs. Never any trouble.

Haha, I'm uhhh, what you would call picky. Personal problem. It's actually a source of constant annoyance that a decent RGB capable CRT is basically non-existent where I live. And as picky as I am, I don't have unlimited funds either. But maybe it would be fine, I'm thinking about getting one that I can return, like from Amazon, in case I don't like it.

[headlesshobbs]

I used to have a Sony trinitron and that would have made a great display for this. Too bad things tend to break all the time.

[Josh128]

For their availability, price and quality, I would recommend to go with one of those generic Scart to component CSY-2100 clones available on ebay.com for around $50. They're not 100% perfect compared to a Kramer FC14/15, but good enough to do the job.

Reg 2.) I never had any problems with that. As long as you don't use both genuine YUV and converted RGB signals on the same component input of your TV, you adjust your black and white level once for the converted signals and you're done. You shouldn't have problems with lost gradients.

You're probably right about that. Without a reference picture, I think it would be hard for me perceive any gradient variation (if there is a difference at all). Still, I wonder if the clamps are integrated into the circuit, and if not, is it feasible to do so. Honestly, I'm not sure if the analog voltages for YPbPr ranges factor in clamps. All I found were 75% color bar voltages and nominal white voltages.

I think I'll get the CSY 2100. I can mode in RCA jacks for stereo, no problem (I'm not great at modding, but that one is pretty simple). It provides the simplest path to get near-RGB quality over component.

Anyone have any experience with the JS Technologies converter? If its really good, I am find with spending the money, but all I can find are a couple of forum posts saying that it didn't make a huge difference.

If you've got a 240p capable set, I highly recommend the CSY-2100 or clone. Im using one on my Samsung PN51F4500 720p plasma and the image is very, very good. Absolutely no noticable input lag. I also tried it on a 36" SD CRT and the first time I saw my Sega Genesis Model 1 through it, I almost cried (tears of joy ).

If you want to see what it looks like with my NES on a plasma, check here http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... start=1920 Page 65 and 66.

[BazookaBen]

I haven't read the entire thread, but I'll just say the audio authority 9a60 does this really well. You just have to use a vga cable, or a scart to vga cable. And also make sure that the sync is going over the H and V lines, which you could do easily with a small piece of wire on the male end. I tested it and it looked fine. If my PVM ever craps out and I have to use a TV with component only, this is the way I'll be hooking everything up.

[bobrocks95]

I figure this thread isn't too ancient to bump for a related question: I see the Keene APTUS1 a couple places for about $50, the same price as the CSY clones, I'd just need to find a different AC adapter lying around that fits the output since the one included is a European one.

Would it be worth it to get this one over one of the clones? Being a European company, I don't know anything about the quality of any Keene products- is it likely better than the CSY clones? Being very close to the same price I figure it couldn't hurt.

[darcagn]

I have no experience with that Keene one, it looks nice though and it does include audio which the CSY clones do not. However, it uses a male SCART connector for input and the CSY clones use a female SCART connector. My guess is that the Keene is designed to be plugged directly into a device with a SCART socket, but classic consoles don't have SCART sockets, so you'll need to use a SCART coupler to connect it. If you use a CSY clone, you'll need to either mod it for audio support or use an audio breakout box (about the same size as a coupler anyway...). So they're about the same in that regard...

The only other thing I can think of is that the CSY clones have potentiometers inside that you can adjust to get the the color right, whereas the Keene device might not have that.

[Einzelherz]

I have a CSY clone from Amazon which I love. I modded it to output three audio channels via TRRS (L, R, Mono) and had retro console accessories make me a cable with mono on pin 10 (SMS/Genesis/NES).

The only issue I have is screen curling, which seems to be fairly common, and I will be making a thread about it shortly.

edit: did not realize this was an old thread

As far as the Keene goes, it wouldn't surprise me if it were a clone that just pulled the audio as well.

[bobrocks95]

Yeah, sorry about that one. I've already got a female to female SCART coupler, so I think I may take the plunge for science since there isn't any documentation I can find anywhere on the thing (and nobody seems to own one to vouch for).

The only thing I'm wary about is opening the thing. Is the only option for molded plastic like that ripping the thing apart? How difficult might that be to even get at?

EDIT: Pulled the trigger and bought one for $45 shipped on eBay. Comes with a Euro AC adapter, so buying a US replacement brings it in line price-wise with the CSY clones I've seen on Amazon and eBay. I'll post thoughts on it and pictures when I get it if anyone is interested. Only thing is that I won't be able to directly compare it to a CSY clone quality-wise, since I don't have one...

[EmperorZelos]

Why go component? if you're gonna do that stuff isn't going directly to HDMI in modern settings as good if not better?

[darcagn]

Why go component? if you're gonna do that stuff isn't going directly to HDMI in modern settings as good if not better?

Because RGB and YPbPr are pretty much exactly the same signals, except the colors are encoded differently and sync is on Y instead of its own signal. Therefore conversion to YPbPr is done fast and cheap at good quality. Converting to HDMI entails a lot more (analog to digital conversion, upscaling the picture to an HDMI-supported resolution, etc.).

[bobrocks95]

Why go component? if you're gonna do that stuff isn't going directly to HDMI in modern settings as good if not better?

If I was using an HDTV for old games and wanted to invest a few hundred in a decent upscaler, sure. I'm using an SD CRT that has component inputs though. And it's entirely analog so there's no sense in doing anything in the digital space.

[Einzelherz]

Yeah, sorry about that one. I've already got a female to female SCART coupler, so I think I may take the plunge for science since there isn't any documentation I can find anywhere on the thing (and nobody seems to own one to vouch for).

The only thing I'm wary about is opening the thing. Is the only option for molded plastic like that ripping the thing apart? How difficult might that be to even get at?

EDIT: Pulled the trigger and bought one for $45 shipped on eBay. Comes with a Euro AC adapter, so buying a US replacement brings it in line price-wise with the CSY clones I've seen on Amazon and eBay. I'll post thoughts on it and pictures when I get it if anyone is interested. Only thing is that I won't be able to directly compare it to a CSY clone quality-wise, since I don't have one...

There's likely zero chance that it's a fully molded plastic body. The worst case scenario is that it's like a Famicom cart and just snaps together. It should have screws somewhere on the outside.

Why go component? if you're gonna do that stuff isn't going directly to HDMI in modern settings as good if not better?

With unlimited funds and if you're using an HDTV (as I am) then yes going to hdmi might be ideal. I liked that for ~$50 I can play my old systems on my new TV and have it look better than they ever did before. Could they look more better (intentional)? Probably, but for less than the cost of an HDMI upscaler I now have the converter and cables for all of my old systems.

[bobrocks95]

There's likely zero chance that it's a fully molded plastic body. The worst case scenario is that it's like a Famicom cart and just snaps together. It should have screws somewhere on the outside.

An error in terminology on my part there. I meant 2 halves of plastic held together, either by clips or I'm guessing glue. There's definitely no screws on this unit, which implies a lack of potentiometers as well, but I'll have to see when I get it on Thursday or Friday.

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/ODcwWDE2MDA=/ ... O/$_57.JPG

[rCadeGaming]

OP, you still there? Did you end up trying something?

For anyone looking, don't overlook the Crescendo Systems TC1600. That should rival anything available in quality, and has horizontal position and gamma adjustments. Of course, you'll pay a premium for it though. I've been using one for a few years now, after upgrading from a CVS-287.

[bobrocks95]

Just to give a quick update, I got my Keene APTUS1 in the mail today, and it seems to be working perfectly. Colors were already calibrated and almost perfectly matched reference emulator shots (which could be slightly off themselves maybe?). The only people who would be bothered by the difference are going to be buying $100+ converters or P/BVM's anyway, not this. I'm still waiting on a SNES SCART cable to do further testing with, my only other SCART cable is a Genesis 2 one and it has a lot of problems of its own, so I don't know if any of the minor problems I'm having are due to the cable or the adapter (though I'm 99% sure it's the cable).

All in all I'm extremely pleased so far for the $45 it cost me.