PCB vs Port vs MAME

[finisherr]

Just wanted to get your opinion on your experience playing shooters on PCB (in a cab), port (console), and/or MAME. I, myself, mostly play ports but occasionally play older games on MAME since I don't have a cab.

One reason I ask is because I find that when I purchase something I enjoy, I enjoy it way more than if I somehow pirated it. For example, I enjoy listening to records more than I do Spotify (even though I have a paid account). For those of you who have played on more than one of the previously mentioned formats, which do you prefer, why, and what are some possible drawbacks or annoyances?

[Despatche]

A supposedly "arcade-accurate" port is generally different in some way compared to the actual arcade version. Truly accurate ports are hard to come by. Many older games don't even have ports in this sense, but only those drastically different "based on" games that I like to call "conversions".

MAME's purpose is to be the actual arcade version, bugs and quirks and all. Oftentimes it makes the same kind of changes that a port does, but the difference is that these changes are not supposed to be there; they're not being made, it's just a question of ignorance.

The whole "piracy" thing may as well be irrelevant as far as MAME goes. Never mind that these ports can just as easily be pirated (especially now), people who specifically use MAME to pirate these CAVE ports they refuse to buy miss the point of the ports, the games behind the ports, MAME itself, piracy itself, so on and so forth; read: they're idiots, ignore them.

So no, this topic doesn't have much to discuss. I have a better topic: the only "drawback" to any of these three forms is finding out just how dumb a lot of these games really are, precisely because they're supposed to be "arcade games" with the formula that so many arcade games share. The only real way arcade games are going to go forward is if everyone, not just shmup fans, finally realizes that a lot of the trappings of the arcade are what is holding the games back; those trappings are necessities for the environment, and they aren't even limitations to overcome.

[pegboy]

I prefer ports to playing emulators 100% of the time so for me it's either run the real PCB or play a port. Emulators vary so wildly and the specs of your PC contribute to the experience you have (more slowdown with a worse PC for instance) to the point that I wouldn't even count runs on a emulator as being legit because of all the variables involved. At least with a port, you will get consistent results from one machine (console) to the next.

There's also several ports that I find to just flat our be better games than the original arcade versions (Contra for NES, UN Squadron for SNES).

The piracy aspect of using emulators + ROMs doesn't factor into my reason not to use them at all actually.

[Ghegs]

when I purchase something I enjoy, I enjoy it way more than if I somehow pirated it.

I get that. I'm unable to really get into a game if I'm just emulating it, I need to have a legit version of it. So to me MAME is only about testing a game out to see if I want to hunt down the original board (which I'll play not on a cab but a supergun) or a port.

Boards can of course get expensive and you might end up dealing with exotic hardware issues, so there's that.

[kilauea]

I think there is an assumed logic that the PCB is best, as it is the original. But with a port they have a chance to tweak the game for home use, give more options, give more content, perhaps even correct things they didn't like in the PCB code. Ports done well are well worth having and for me are the primary way of playing shmups.

My PC can run anything Mame throws at it. But I don't play shmups so much on it. I play the odd classic on there (Pacman, donkey kong type stuff). I do play some ports on emulators though. Saturn (Batsugun, Garrega) and PS1 and PS2 games (inc. cave ports that I physically own). I don't seem to detect much lag with SSF and PCSX2, even when playing fighting games. And I can tate my PC monitor so it is sometimes a better experience than using the HDTV (although I am still looking for a good crt).

[MJR]

For me it depends on how seriously you love the game. If it's something that I just play for casual fun, I look for port or legal emulation.
But if I play seriously for scores, then it has to be the original hardware.

And for ports / emulations, preference goes with something that is usable with X-arcade and can be connected to my old CRT tv. Like PS1 and PS2 ports.

It also depends on the game itself, I never played CAVE game on original PCB, but their 360 ports are so good that I don't miss them.
While radiant silvergun on XBLA is so laggy that I'd rather dig up my old saturn with it's arcade joystick.

For console games generally, it's always original hardware -> emulation.

Mame emulation is something I only use for games I don't have opportunity to play any other way. I really dislike Mame and I've been using it since mid nineties. They are pain to set up and maintaining you rom library against every new release is a major pain, even with CRLmamepro.
I often end up being so exhausted with all the fiddling that once the game starts, I'm no longer interested to play it even.

[cools]

Never liked ports.

GroovyMAME on a cab for well emulated games is indistinguishable from the PCB, and with the prices and fragility of PCBs nowadays I prefer to not worry about having them hanging around. It works well enough for me. I've still got a couple of poorly emulated and favourite games on PCB, but only really because their value isn't at a level where I'm thinking it's daft to keep them.

[Blinge]

One reason I ask is because I find that when I purchase something I enjoy, I enjoy it way more than if I somehow pirated it.

That's because you're forever having to justify your purchase after the fact.

[MJR]

One reason I ask is because I find that when I purchase something I enjoy, I enjoy it way more than if I somehow pirated it.

That's because you're forever having to justify your purchase after the fact.

That's what pirates like to say to justify their stealing

There are other things such as having a physical product, the manuals, artwork. They do contribute as well. Well we all know that, there is no point arguing about the obvious.

[cave hermit]

As cliche as this sounds, when you buy a game you support the dev.

[kilauea]

I like having instructions, probably because I'm a bit dim or something! I like ports which have well written instructions, playing strategies and such like the Cave ports or the Street Fighter games often have. I was well pissed when Arcana Heart 3 arrived (x360) - basic movement diagram and pretty much fuck all else over just 4 pages

[Blinge]

One reason I ask is because I find that when I purchase something I enjoy, I enjoy it way more than if I somehow pirated it.

That's because you're forever having to justify your purchase after the fact.

That's what pirates like to say to justify their stealing

I'm sure they do, but I don't enjoy the use of something I own more than something I pirate, even the rare instances where i'm emulating a game/getting music I already own.

[Volteccer_Jack]

I think there is an assumed logic that the PCB is best, as it is the original.

A game is designed to be played a certain way and if it is a good game, playing it in that way usually provides a better experience. It's not mystical or superstitious, it is just subtle. I've never played a port I liked as much as the original unless it was significantly different in some way, like Gain Ground having a smaller playfield on Genesis, and in that case I like the port more than the original (and play the "original" port ).

[Acid King]

Some PCBs have quirks that are eliminated via emulation too. Both Batrider and Bakraid have a frame of input lag on the original hardware and Bakraid has moments where the bullets flicker when certain enemies explode. Both of those problems are fixed in MAME.

That said, those are also the only two shooters I really care to own the PCBs of. I just dropped a bunch of money on a Batrider PCB and I'm ok with that, because I'm never going to sell it and I know it's something I love. Neither of them have ports, so I figure I'll enjoy them in their original form for as long as I can. While I love playing on my cab, PCBs are a pain in the ass compared to ports and MAME and boards cost so much and that I have a hard time justifying spending hundreds of dollars on a game I'm not absolutely in love with just so it can sit in a box for 6 months at a time.

[Cee]

It really depends on the game and state of emulation etc , il take metal slug 2 with slowdown removing mame overclock over the authentic arcade experience though everytime.

[Eaglet]

Any game i actually like i will only play as it was originally intended.
Has to do with both preferring a cab and the fact that i don't want to be able to blame anything aside from my own (lack of) skills for eventual fuck ups.

[kilauea]

I think there is an assumed logic that the PCB is best, as it is the original.

A game is designed to be played a certain way and if it is a good game, playing it in that way usually provides a better experience. It's not mystical or superstitious, it is just subtle. I've never played a port I liked as much as the original unless it was significantly different in some way, like Gain Ground having a smaller playfield on Genesis, and in that case I like the port more than the original (and play the "original" port ).

Not quite true. The games also have to operate within the limitations of the hardware, so design decisions would not always be taken for the better. An x360 offers developers a lot more flexibility to realize their vision than an antique pcb. I wouldn't call it a "better" experience to someone who never had any attachment to the arcade game, it's easier to argue it's not as good (no arrange modes, no online hi-score tables, no "improved" graphics, PCB to maintain, expensive to buy etc).

Some ports do suck though, no escaping that. And there is an authenticity to playing a pcb through a crt, but that is subjective.

[DestroyTheCore]

Considering the (very) subtle differences between PCBs and ports, it is up to the player to decide if his/her dedication to the game is worth a high price. As a casual player, I think my custom arcade sticks, my imports and my "lag-free" HD TV make the ideal setup for shmups at home. If I had enough motivation and spare time to aim at 1CCs and spend thousands of hours on a specific game, I would spend what it takes on an arcade cabinet and PCBs.

[Some-Mist]

Never was able to dedicate myself to a game via MAME.
I was actually content with ports until I tried out a pcb on a cab for the first time. I had such a blast that it got me into the pcb/cab hobby.

It's hard to think of a situation in which I'd prefer to play a port/emulated version instead of the actual board.

[finisherr]

My first 1 ALL was DDP with a crap gamepad and mame running on a 13" MacBook. Now I find myself playing ports 90% of the time w/ a stick. I can't even enjoy playing shooters with a gamepad anymore. There is something about it...

Anyway, for those of you who have cabs and hunt down PCBs, do you have any regrets for getting into it? Ever have lots of difficulty with getting your PCBs to work with the hardware in the cab? Would you say that playing games on cabs are more fun or better for you? Do you learn to live without restarts?

[Dave_K.]

Each have their advantages and disadvantages, so its not really a one is better than another. Of course not everyone has money or room for a cabinet with PCB inside, so out of the three - PCBs are probably the least beneficial, but most pure in terms of experience. Mame does an adequate job for most folks with playing/practicing/replays, and ports are primarily liked for extra content, remix/arrange versions, online leader boards, etc.

[Patashu]

I bet you could do a double blind test of PCB vs MAME with identical setups (CRT etc) and make people not be able to tell the difference.

[emphatic]

As cliche as this sounds, when you buy a game you support the dev.

While this is true for the ports (when bought brand new), not so much for buying PCBs second hand as it's money spent that you could in theory put into the developers pockets by buying their home ports. Playing the games for free in MAME will

a) steal time away that you could spend on playing store bought ports = no money goes to the developer
b) make you aware of the developer you'd normally know nothing about = possibly end up buying ports -> money to the developer

So, emulation is indeed a double-edged sword for the developer, especially when ports exist and I'm not talking second hand.

[Ed Oscuro]

Residual sales 20 years or more after the fact of an original game release do essentially nothing to promote the creation of new IP, however (and this isn't just me talking, but a few economics studies have found this). This is easily seen with games when you notice that there are relatively few shooters unreleased for the home market that could also make enough money to be worthwhile - and even more importantly, there are only a handful of brands (Cave, MOSS, Konami and Squeenix-Taito maybe) that would see money going to developers in any meaningful way. Almost everybody else is long out of the business, and most don't even exist as corporate entities anymore (as IREM does, but again not involved in shmups at the moment).

[Despatche]

If by "new IP" you mean "superficially unrelated series" (the correct definition), then of course not. If by "new IP" you mean "sequels", then yes it does--your economic studies are flatly wrong when companies have outright used rereleases as promotions for a potential sequel--it just doesn't work for shmups.

The reason why is because the world collectively said "lol shmups" decades ago. It's kinda random for a number of reasons, but it's what happened; some other arcade genres were spared, and shmups-the-genre had one of the short straws shoved into its hands. Yes, shmups are supposed to be "dead", it's time to "move on" and occasionally get some faux-fun out of a faux-retro revival, just like every other decade wall people want to put up. It's a crying shame.

Some PCBs have quirks that are eliminated via emulation too. Both Batrider and Bakraid have a frame of input lag on the original hardware and Bakraid has moments where the bullets flicker when certain enemies explode. Both of those problems are fixed in MAME.

They're not supposed to be. Either MAME has a very good reason for that, or they simply don't know. It needs to be reported if it hasn't already.

[Eaglet]

I bet you could do a double blind test of PCB vs MAME with identical setups (CRT etc) and make people not be able to tell the difference.

This would actually be hard for a lot of the more modern, hectic shooters that aren't as well emulated.
Slowdown is almost always off.
Look at Garegga.

[Ed Oscuro]

things

Huh? What the hell are you talking about? There have been nearly no new games based off old IPs in recent years, and I don't think there has been any game released in a series when its predecessor was more than 20 years old.

It is highly undesirable to have a company whose sole source of income is off rereleases of 20+ year old arcade games. Nobody does this - not Cave, not MOSS (both these companies have a stable of recent products that fund new releases), not Konami or Squeenix (has funding from many other sources) and one of the major reasons is that if you aren't continually producing things, you can't attract and retain talent. Of course at any time a company can rerelease its back catalog, but nobody should kid themselves that this substantially funds or provokes new development.

Your "well other sources do it" argument misses the point as well. I can release a bitmap AIM icon as a "promotion." That is a totally different issue from actually funding releases. Promotions typically only cost a fraction of a development budget and likewise make essentially no profits. And truthfully, when emulator authors already do a pretty good job of allowing people to promotionally play old games, a company would have to be relatively sure that its own investment in an old game rerelease would make some money. No doubt people would pay some cents for most any old release, but there are plenty of obscure games that would never make their money back when released this way.

Finally, it's simply naive to believe that brand loyalty is an important thing for promoting production. What we should actually care about are developers, who are the artists in this case - not giving money to the money machines who buy up IPs to gain royalty-free dividends from rereleases for years to come. It's very well known that original developers (meaning people) typically do not see returns on their own work for years to come. And yes, this isn't just restricted to video games.

By the way, the original copyright law (in the UK) provided a term of 14 years.

[Despatche]

No, you don't make a company solely devoted to rereleasing old games; you never said that, and I never said that. Yes, rereleasing old games before or around trying a retro revival is Cool and Works: just off the top of my head, R-Type Delta, Sin and Punishment 2, we were all expecting it when PinkSweets/Muchi Muchi Pork! got released, I seem to remember something about VC sales influencing Mega Man 9 and 10, and I'm sure there's even something going on with all those retro-revival-class Sonic games that have been coming out for the past six years or so.

You had specifically put forward "promotions" while going on about "funding" and "sustainability" for some reason. Funding has fuck all to do with any of this, which is why your "economic studies" are really useless. Retro revivals usually aren't even meant to directly make money, they're meant to get people to like you; whether they break even is always a giant maybe with no planning for it. But probably the most important bit is that you know all of this.

I'm tired of seeing you move the goalposts every single time someone wants to call you out for your bullshit.

[Some-Mist]

Anyway, for those of you who have cabs and hunt down PCBs, do you have any regrets for getting into it? Ever have lots of difficulty with getting your PCBs to work with the hardware in the cab? Would you say that playing games on cabs are more fun or better for you? Do you learn to live without restarts?

my only regret is not having/saving enough money to spend on more pcbs
it is a pretty crazy steep slope though - and many have warned me (such as system11) that it quickly becomes an addiction. originally I only wanted to buy progear. Then I played dimahoo and batrider at last years chicago shmupsmeet and had to get those. then I wanted Ra.De. and Feveron... etc
I have about 6 more pcbs I want but I more than likely won't purchase a new one without selling an old one (I have 8 now).

I feel like I'm having more fun but I mostly prefer it for the authenticity/purity of the original arcade hardware - it just feels good. Also, when I get a hi score, I like that it's on a original and official format which serves as the standard for hi score threads and competitive scoring. It's why people try to tweak MAME to mirror the slowdown and performance of the PCB (including glitching bullets like in Ra.De) in order to compete. Except with the board there isn't any tweaking or adjusting. Other than testing voltage and adjusting the monitor, it's pretty much plug in and play.

I don't normally restart... but if I need to I can easily click the test menu (or step away for 10 seconds) and restart the board in split seconds. But that's not how I play. The way I play is I throw a credit in and see how far I get. Over time I learn the best scoring routes on stages 1-3 while getting accustomed to stage 4-5+. It's just a method that works for me. I've spent probably a couple hundred hours on Progear and have a handful 1-ALLs under my belt, but I'm still working on the loop requirements which I've missed by a few bombs. I've pretty much got a few different scoring runs on stage 4 and 5 down and I'm working mainly on the final boss right now.

[Some-Mist]

I bet you could do a double blind test of PCB vs MAME with identical setups (CRT etc) and make people not be able to tell the difference.

lol. lets do Ibara, yea?