most innovative shmups

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Sun Dec 11, 2005 5:45 pm

Many of you have a much better grip than I do on the history of our subject matter at this forum. I'd like to learn what you think were key innovations in the development of the genre.

Post by **Icarus** » Sun Dec 11, 2005 6:11 pm

Here's a few for you. A few may be factually incorrect, but it's been a while since I was last playing retro ^_-

Space War!
The first.

Space Invaders
Attack waves.

Xevious
Bosses, ground bombing and more attack waves. Also, the beginnings of a complex score system.

Defender
Warping. An underused gameplay element.

Thrust/Subterrania
Gravity. Another potentially entertaining gameplay element that hasn't been developed.

R-Type
Memory based gameplay, exceptional stage and graphic design, and a smart weapon system.

Gradius
Same as R-Type, but with a much faster style of gameplay, and with a different but similarly complex weapon system.

Xexex
Gradius and R-Type rolled into one, with graphics ahead of it's time.

Raiden
Simplicity at its best.

Raiden DX
Simplicity and complexity in one complete package.

Twinkle Star Sprites
Two player versus shmupping. Only four games (to memory) have attempted VS shmupping after TSS: Change Air Blade, La Petite Princesse, Phantasmagoria of Flower View, Senko no Ronde.

Batsugun
Big weapons.

Donpachi
Pink bullet manics. Also the start of Cave-style chaining systems.

Shippu Mahou Daisakusen
Shmup racing. ^_-

Soukyugurentai/Battle Garegga
Beginnings of Raizing-style deep rank systems.

Psyvariar
Bullet scratching as an important integral system.

One other thing: shmups were primarily horizontal throughout the late 80s and early 90s, as developers seemed to like using terrain in shmups. The first Toaplan game marked the shift to serious development of the vertical shmup, and recently horzies have been making a bit of a return.

WarpZone · Post by **WarpZone** » Sun Dec 11, 2005 6:12 pm

Here's a related thread:

http://forum.shmups.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4469

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Sun Dec 11, 2005 6:16 pm

WarpZone wrote:Here's a related thread:

http://forum.shmups.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4469

Please, no resurrecting Third Strike threads!

That's my 1,000th post. I'm not sure if that's good or bad.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sun Dec 11, 2005 8:59 pm

Bio Metal - Introduces shield as defense and weapon. (before anyone replies with "R-Tpe!" I mean full shield)

Giga Wing - More xtreme.

Mars Matrix - More xtreme.

Turrican · Post by **Turrican** » Sun Dec 11, 2005 9:29 pm

Nice list Icarus (agreeable up to Gradius), except Defender adds much more than "warping", as it's the father of horiz. But you probably didn't bother to write what everyone already knows.

btw, Gradius comes before R-Type.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Sun Dec 11, 2005 9:36 pm

Hmm...we talking "innovative" solely in terms of a shmup which pioneered stuff which became "standard" (or at least used in a few other games) over time, or also in terms of shmups which have done completely unique stuff which no one else has ever really bothered to build on/copy?

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Sun Dec 11, 2005 9:42 pm

Does Psyvariar outdate Shikigami no Shiro in terms of bullets grazing? On those notes.

Guwange: First shooter to feature extreme bullet-cancelling. Not that it has paved the way for other shooters, but still.

Guwange: First micro hit box? (Noticeably smaller than ESPRade and Dodonpachi if I'm not mistaken).

Other stuff I don't know:
-First shooter with a "true boss"
-First tate shooter <- important, and I don't know what it is. And no, I don't mean simply vertical.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sun Dec 11, 2005 9:48 pm

Speaking of scraping, I've read Raiden DX had it as a minor element that I never saw myself. More visible, Spriggan Powered had possible scoring bonuses anywhere, although the reward wasn't that great/wasn't important. Psyvariar was the first that built a complete game around it, so I guess that gives it something.

CMoon · Post by **CMoon** » Sun Dec 11, 2005 10:27 pm

I still don't quite get how there is little or no mention of toaplan games in threads like this, while Raiden often gets multiple mentions, even though almost every idea in the Raiden games (right down to the soundtracks) are outright homages to toaplan games.

DX on the otherhand had a pretty innovative scoring system--when did that actually come out.

I'm actually starting to consider RSG more innovative, since it actually introduced scratching/grazing well before psyvariar/shikigami, never mind boss milking and an experience based weapon power-up system (ala Mars Matrix).

I think the question needs to be approached in a more methodical way--that is, list every innovation, then find the game that first introduced it:

-lock ons?
-bosses?
-multiple weapons?
-screen clearing bomb?
-power-ups?
-deep scoring?
-small hit-box?
-piercing weapon?
-charge attack?
-proximity attack?
-etc., etc.

Ganelon · Post by **Ganelon** » Sun Dec 11, 2005 10:27 pm

Batsugun Special Ver. feels like the first modern shooter.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Sun Dec 11, 2005 10:59 pm

Ganelon wrote:Batsugun Special Ver. feels like the first modern shooter.

It is claimed by some of as "the first manic/danmaku" shooter, although by today's standards ,the hit box is pretty big and it might not be quite as manic as it once seemed. If not, then it would be Dodonpachi. Either way, Ikeda gets the trophy.

You still have to ask, "what is innovation"? Is something innovative if it doesn't do anything for the genre? I mentioned nobody else seems to adopt bullet-cancelling like cave, and I dare say the experience-based power up system is not very widespread. I guess you could say these are innovative, but not influential. (?)

Neon · Post by **Neon** » Sun Dec 11, 2005 11:23 pm

I'm actually starting to consider RSG more innovative, since it actually introduced scratching/grazing well before psyvariar/shikigami, never mind boss milking and an experience based weapon power-up system (ala Mars Matrix).

Bullet grazing was in some earlier games, and are we really grateful for boss milking and RPG elements? Not that it introduced boss milking either.

On the other hand I'm surprised Ikaruga hasn't been mentioned yet. I'd like to see the dual-colors system implemented by a shmup developer.

Post by **Icarus** » Sun Dec 11, 2005 11:43 pm

Rob wrote:Speaking of scraping, I've read Raiden DX had it as a minor element that I never saw myself.

It does, sort of. In Training Mission, to get the third Gold you have to fight two large tanks. When you knock one of these tanks into it's second form (blasting off part of the armor) it'll fire a stream of bullets with a small gap inbetween. By dashing inbetween these gaps, you can get a 5000pt bonus each time.

A short video clip of it in action. (XVID - 2.1MB)

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CMoon wrote:I still don't quite get how there is little or no mention of toaplan games in threads like this...

Toaplan marked the beginnings of serious development of the vertical shmup. Sure, there were loads of vert before Toaplan, but they kickstarted the huge shift from horizontal shmup dominance to vertical shmup dominance. Only recently have we seen horizontal shmups make a mini resurgance.

With the exception of Batsugun (scenery bombing for points, the small hitbox in the Special ver, stupidly big weapons, a pseudo-experience system, and command entry for secrets) I'm having a bit of difficulty working out what games Toaplan made that were "innovative" by definition.

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CMoon wrote:I'm actually starting to consider RSG more innovative, since it actually introduced scratching/grazing well before psyvariar/shikigami, never mind boss milking and an experience based weapon power-up system (ala Mars Matrix).

RSG might have used scratching as well (and some games before it have too, see Raiden DX as a "sort-of" example), but it as always as a side effect of coming close to bullets - it's there, but not necessarily something that was required to be exploited (not unless you were playing for score, of course). Psy, however, took it and made it an integral system that was required to be exploited. Not innovative for the idea, but innovative for the usage.

Experience gaining to level up weapons was done in Batsugun (possibly earlier). RSG started colour chaining, but chaining itself was done in Twinkle Star Sprites (again, possibly earlier, my shmup history is pretty incomplete), while bonus points for enemy wave clearance was done by Taito's Darius, and further back, the old arcade game Juno First being another example.

RSG though is innovative for usage of ideas, just like Psy is. The only truly groundbreaking idea it has pioneered is colour chaining. For that, I don't rate RSG any more innovative for new ideas than the masses of exeprimental games that have appeared before it (and some after it). The same could be said about Ikaruga.

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GaijinPunch wrote:You still have to ask, "what is innovation"? Is something innovative if it doesn't do anything for the genre?

Innovation doesn't have to be widely adopted to be groundbreaking. That's why I listed Thrust/Subterrania. Having gravity influence movement gave you the feeling that you were really exploring the caverns of a planet, constantly in conflict with the gravitational forces that could help you by accellerating your descent speed, or could kill you by sending you into the ground. The idea hasn't been touched since, but it was pretty good fun in the games that it appeared in.

Can't say the same for inertial forces though. Air Buster was a fun game ruined by inertia in the last few stages.

CMoon · Post by **CMoon** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 12:35 am

GaijinPunch wrote:
You still have to ask, "what is innovation"? Is something innovative if it doesn't do anything for the genre? I mentioned nobody else seems to adopt bullet-cancelling like cave, and I dare say the experience-based power up system is not very widespread. I guess you could say these are innovative, but not influential. (?)

*nods* This is the problem we had before, which is why I suggest a list of 'innovations' and finding where they first appeared. Any other approach is going to be far too subjective to be taken seriously.

If we can simplify the question and just ask 'where did X first appear', I think we can objectively start to say which games really DID shape the current state of shmupdom.

CMoon · Post by **CMoon** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 12:46 am

Icarus wrote: With the exception of Batsugun (scenery bombing for points, the small hitbox in the Special ver, stupidly big weapons, a pseudo-experience system, and command entry for secrets) I'm having a bit of difficulty working out what games Toaplan made that were "innovative" by definition.

What new innovations did Raiden 1&2 (not DX) introduce, by definition?

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 1:21 am

GaijinPunch wrote:It is claimed by some of as "the first manic/danmaku" shooter...

"Danmaku?" Hmm, I haven't heard that term before...maybe I ought to add it to the glossary. Mind hooking me up with a definition?

...although by today's standards ,the hit box is pretty big and it might not be quite as manic as it once seemed.

The original version's hitbox was pretty big, but the Special version's one was pretty small, if I recall...

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 2:11 am

"Danmaku?" Hmm, I haven't heard that term before...maybe I ought to add it to the glossary. Mind hooking me up with a definition?

Japanese word for bullet swarm.

Post by **Icarus** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 2:19 am

CMoon wrote:What new innovations did Raiden 1&2 (not DX) introduce, by definition?

Stupidly slow, not-screen-clearing bombs ^_-

On a similar note, what was the first game to introduce the bomb? Not the air-ground weapon seen in old games, but limited stock, screen clearing bombs? (I'm sure Stargate had a sort of limited stock bomb, at least the A2600 version did with the 2P controller's fire button.)

Turrican · Post by **Turrican** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 2:40 am

Icarus wrote:On a similar note, what was the first game to introduce the bomb? Not the air-ground weapon seen in old games, but limited stock, screen clearing bombs? (I'm sure Stargate had a sort of limited stock bomb, at least the A2600 version did with the 2P controller's fire button.)

Defender? Just guessing.

Fighter17 · Post by **Fighter17** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 3:00 am

Salamander/Lifeforce: I believe it was the first shmup that has both vertical and horzi. stages.

Raiden 2: The first game with a lot of enemy debris after blowing up their planes, and by using the bomb, you can destory a lot of things on the ground (like trees, buildings, etc.).

gs68 · Post by **gs68** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 3:38 am

DonPachi: First game with a hit combo display.

Ikaruga: One of the most precisely designed shmups ever created.

TalkingOctopus · Post by **TalkingOctopus** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 3:55 am

Espgaluda - the only game I know of with a change gender button. Perhaps the mode that comes with gender changing is innovative. Do any other shmups have a similar slow down time button?

Neo Rasa · Post by **Neo Rasa** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 4:25 am

Bermuda Triangle/War Zones. A vertical SNK shmup from the mid-eighties. It has ground bombing like Xevious, and your primary weapon can shoot in any direction via the rotating joystick. You control a larger space ship, the "options" are smaller fighters that you can control the formation of around you (prior to Gradius III). You often play through the stages two and a half times, heh. You fly through an area, then you fly back through it in reverse a ways, then confront the boss in the middle. It also has some of the armor options and stuff from Alpha Mission.

They also did Sky Soldiers (ADK actually

) and Sky Adventure. In both you have different smart bombs/missiles to choose from that each behave VERY differently. The interesting thing is that instead of getting three smart bombs or whatever, you have an amount of ammunition that numbers in the hundreds. How many units of ammo are used depends on the weapon chosen. You have this one large pool of ammo to draw from for the entire game but can change which special weapon you have between levels. You only get about 100 or so units to use in level that are taken from your overall pool of 1,000 or whatever for the whole game.

So for a level you can choose to use weak but super fast homing missiles you can fire a billion of at once that each use one unit, and then in the next level choose a massive attack that you'd only be able to use four or five times before running out of ammunition for it.

The other cool thing is that in Sky Adventure you can upgrade each of the ships individually, and you can get bonus upgrades.level rating depending on an amalgamation of your score, how many times you were killed, and how many enemies you killed. You can also change which ship you're using between each level and they can all be upgraded in different ways individually. I think this was the only shmup to really do this before R-Type Final.

None of these games are really revolutionary (even for their time, with the exception of the colorful graphics and sound effects quality, sprite scaling too, a precursor to what the Neo Geo would blow our minds with a couple of years later). They just all have a few interesting ideas that I wish were developed more in the shmup world.

Sky Adventure in particular is a blast IMO even today. It all has this art deco thirties look to it and has you flying through jungles and over islands and such with various monsters and mechanical things. There's a persistent enemey you fights you at the halfway point of each level in a completely different ship in every level with different abilities. Awesome because if you die he taunts you and just flies off regardless of how many lives you have, so you miss a big amount of bonus points for that level.

It also has the cool detail with Sky Adventure where like EVERY LITTLE BIT of the bosses can be blown off individually. Like if there's a turret on the top part of the boss you can't just shoot at it, you have to blast through the entire "column" of the craft in front of it before you can damage it. It's a good challenge (especially in Sky Soldiers) because you REALLY need to be good at lining up your shots because the hit detection is very tight and the bosses move at a faster speed than in most shmups.

Basically I wish SNK proper had made more shmups. As with everything they touched SNK brought some really interesting ideas and details to the table.

WarCheese · Post by **WarCheese** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 8:42 pm

Hello all:

I think the whole concept of shielding from bullets started with Dragon Breed. If my memory serves me correctly, that's the first game that allows one to position some device to shield enemy attacks from a direction. As for R-Type, I think it takes the shielding concept from Dragon Breed and balances it better. In Dragon Breed, you have a large dragon body as shield. In R-Type, you have a much much smaller force pod to protect you.

Not to slight R-Type in anyway, I like Dragon Breed and R-Type both. That being said, Dragon Breed is the very first arcade shmup I play consistently, back when I was in primary school. I thought it deserves mentioning.

Cheers.

WarCheese

Neo Rasa · Post by **Neo Rasa** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 6:43 am

Dragon Breed is AWESOME! Both it and R-Type are some of Irem's best games ever if you ask me.

Man I played Dragon Breed constantly in my younger years. It's supported on MAME, everyone should play it. Cool thing is if you get close to the ground you can get off the dragon and run/jump around blasting stuff like in Contra.

WarCheese · Post by **WarCheese** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:16 pm

Hello all:

Yeah. Just like what Neo Rasa said, Dragon Breed is the first to combine a traditional horizontal shmup with contra-like platform gameplay. That being said, the occasion for platform play is few. I won't have noticed it if it wasn't for the demo.

Also, Dragon Breed is probably the first game that combines Street-Fighter moves into a shmup. For example, having the Gold dragon power requires one to do half circles with the stick to wrap the dragon tail around the rider, making him invulnerable to most attacks.

Cheers.

WarCheese

captain ahar · Post by **captain ahar** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:31 pm

TalkingOctopus wrote:Espgaluda - the only game I know of with a change gender button. Perhaps the mode that comes with gender changing is innovative. Do any other shmups have a similar slow down time button?

earliest one i've played is on x68k, called silsteel. incidentally its also really hard. i believe at this point its around 10 years old.

also, i'm sure the concept is older than this.

Neo Rasa · Post by **Neo Rasa** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 2:49 am

Yeah the arcade version of Mag Max has a SPEED UP button.

Post by **Icarus** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:00 am

WarCheese wrote:I think the whole concept of shielding from bullets started with Dragon Breed. If my memory serves me correctly, that's the first game that allows one to position some device to shield enemy attacks from a direction. As for R-Type, I think it takes the shielding concept from Dragon Breed and balances it better.

Didn't R-Type come before Dragon Breed? My memory is hazy...