US Midterm Elections

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antron
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Re: US Midterm Elections

Post by antron »

New Paper Suggests Scrapping The Health Law's Employer Mandate
considering it may help the situation, the GOP will probably never let it happen. I know how cynical that sounds, but they tried to sabotage things before with attempts to block subsidies in states without their own exchanges. That's peoples lives they were playing with.

xorthen wrote:
trap15 wrote:Because it's not illegal.
Really? Then why are they called illegals?
don't know, why don't you tell us why you call them that.

NYT: Supreme Court Decision on Arizona Immigration Law
The court notes that, "As a general rule, it is not a crime for a removable alien to remain present in the United States,"
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Re: US Midterm Elections

Post by Moniker »

xorthen wrote:
trap15 wrote:Because it's not illegal.
Really? Then why are they called illegals?
Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

It resonates with me, possibly because both sides of my family immigrated relatively recently (Italian and Irish, early-to-mid 20th C.). Both sides were more or less reviled for taking jobs from real "Americans," same as immigrants from Mexico/Latin America today. They worked menial jobs to begin with, but had the intelligence and work ethic to eventually own their own businesses and prosper. Not saying this to trump up my own family, though I am proud of them, but it's more to say that immigrants have a lot to offer, because they understand better than most the value of a job and a dollar.

My working idea is that if more of them were classified legal, then more would pay taxes, and the whole overburdened health and education systems argument would be deflated. Then again, I don't live in a border state. Don't really know a lot about the nuts and bolts of the issue, so I guess it's primarily an emotional reaction.
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BryanM
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Re: US Midterm Elections

Post by BryanM »

No it's way better to have a transparent system instead of some stupid drug war-style policy. The amount of sexual abuse that goes on in the fields or the Arizona graveyard of people literally dying for work are just a couple examples.

While there are people out there (you know, Them) who'd like to dehumanize human beings with labels and say they're criminals of the highest degree, we're talking about an offense that's worth a 25 to $500 fine, some detainment while travel accommodations are made, and a bus ride over the border.

The proposed measure that involves people paying thousands of dollars for citizenship over a decade and integrating with society seems a lot more rational for everyone involved. Except for the political party that's composed solely of Evangelical White People and absolutely no one else. You could see why they're not jumping over themselves to get it done.
antron wrote:I know how cynical that sounds, but they tried to sabotage things before with attempts to block subsidies in states without their own exchanges. That's peoples lives they were playing with.
And the medicare expansion. They're literally paying more money in order to murder citizens.

People got rather worked up over the September 11 attacks, but when a much higher amount of preventable death is a current feature of the system, no one gives a shit. I'll never understand humans.
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Re: US Midterm Elections

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Illegal immigration was when a bunch of racist whites pushed Hispanic Americans across the border in the '20s.

Btw, Britain is also in the middle of an American-style debate over immigration. You can see a review of that here, in the form of a book review. The title is very telling.
Mischief Maker wrote:I'd say we needed even less "Blue Dog" Democrats.
Center-of-left Democrats are going to be a part of the party. People are all over the map on all kinds of issues, unfortunately. Sure, the crop of Democrats who run against the President in their states aren't helping in this case. But votes is votes (at least sometimes). It's sad that the choice is between hardcore obstructionists in the other party vs. obstructionists in your own party, but them's the breaks.
Doctor Butler wrote:This is correct. If min. wage had increased proportionately to inflation since the late 70's, it would currently be around 20 bucks an hour.
Jeezus.
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BryanM
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Re: US Midterm Elections

Post by BryanM »

Ed Oscuro wrote:Illegal immigration was when a bunch of racist whites pushed Hispanic Americans across the border in the '20s
Oh right that too. We're living in their country but somehow it's THEM that's the invading xenomorphs.

smh whitepeople.txt
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Re: US Midterm Elections

Post by xorthen »

Okay, so I just listened to some guy on the news saying that a large percent of illegals are criminals or criminally inclined and then heard a bunch of reasons the democrats won't close the borders because such and such reasons. Wasn't really paying too much attention.
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Re: US Midterm Elections

Post by Doctor Butler »

xorthen wrote:Okay, so I just listened to some guy on the news saying that a large percent of illegals are criminals or criminally inclined and then heard a bunch of reasons the democrats won't close the borders because such and such reasons. Wasn't really paying too much attention.
Did he mention numbers, or studies?

Because "large percent" with no citations. and unspecified statistics is typically a political codeword for "fabricated".
Moniker wrote: It resonates with me, possibly because both sides of my family immigrated relatively recently (Italian and Irish, early-to-mid 20th C.). Both sides were more or less reviled for taking jobs from real "Americans," same as immigrants from Mexico/Latin America today. They worked menial jobs to begin with, but had the intelligence and work ethic to eventually own their own businesses and prosper. Not saying this to trump up my own family, though I am proud of them, but it's more to say that immigrants have a lot to offer, because they understand better than most the value of a job and a dollar.

My working idea is that if more of them were classified legal, then more would pay taxes, and the whole overburdened health and education systems argument would be deflated. Then again, I don't live in a border state. Don't really know a lot about the nuts and bolts of the issue, so I guess it's primarily an emotional reaction.
I come from an almost identical background as you (I'm part Maltese, but that's ostensibly the same thing as Italian), and I agree for the most part with your theory here, but I'm also concerned that we're all taking the same jobs from a ever-shrinking pool. It's certainly a good idea to tax migrant workers, though. It would all but defeat most of the anti-immigration, let's-build-a-wall caliber arguments.

It's a little ironic that many opponents of immigration seem to be completely complacent when it comes to outsourcing.
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Re: US Midterm Elections

Post by BulletMagnet »

Doctor Butler wrote:It's a little ironic that many opponents of immigration seem to be completely complacent when it comes to outsourcing.
Not to mention the whole "Well-connected billionaires hiding trillions in assets in tax havens = capitalist heroes" versus "Voiceless immigrant laborers not paying taxes on their slave wages = criminal freeloaders" thing. And the whole "hunt down all the illegals one by one and deport them, and build a national border fence at any cost...but NEVER prosecute or otherwise inconvenience the businesses that illegally hire them openly and in droves, thus giving them a reason to come here in the first place, not to mention push down compensation for the rest of us in the process."
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Re: US Midterm Elections

Post by Ed Oscuro »

BulletMagnet wrote:Not to mention the whole "Well-connected billionaires hiding trillions in assets in tax havens = capitalist heroes" versus "Voiceless immigrant laborers not paying taxes on their slave wages = criminal freeloaders" thing.
Did I post this yet?
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Re: US Midterm Elections

Post by Moniker »

I gave that a read, but I'm having trouble understanding the rationale behind the proposed increase of estate taxes being a good thing. He categorizes the current upper class as being either inheritors or earners. But, as I see it, if a rich man has earned his money his entire life, why shouldn't he be able pass it on to his progeny, unimpeded? It's literally his money, after all, Why shouldn't he get to decide where it goes after he dies?

I'm not pushing a position, merely asking for comment.
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Re: US Midterm Elections

Post by BryanM »

Well because then you end up in a monarchy where the Kochs own their own cable news network to tell people to give them everything. The entire point of "drown the government in the bathtub" is so they have a shot at installing a puppet dictator. It's not like the middle east - there's not really another organization out there better seated in the hierarchy of warlords here. It sounds absolutely crazy conspiracy-theory-esque, but this is what Super Adventure Club actually believes.

Anyway, owning capital is not the same thing as being a serf. These guys make about 4% a year off their wealth. Since that's above inflation, it's pretty obvious you're eventually left with like 20 guys owning absolutely everything if left unmolested.

Anyone who's put a few hundred thousand in the bank and lived off the interest alone understands how the system works. As long as you aren't stupid enough to be born into poverty, you've got a shot at having people owe you debt, instead of the other way around.

An unbiased observer would equate this sort of thing (which is as much theft as taxation is, if not more-so) to "being a gangster". I think the Geto Boys wrote a song about it in the 80's or something.
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Re: US Midterm Elections

Post by Moniker »

I mean, I get the long-term bad implications of inherited wealth, but it still doesn't make bedrock sense to me. If a man works hard his whole life to make a better future for his sons and daughters, where is the philosophical justification for taking away that life he spent all his days building?

Do we have to discriminate between numbered generations of earned wealth vs. inherited wealth? How many generations should that be? Should those who inherited earned wealth be deprived of giving their progeny a better future? Maybe two generations, since those who earned wealth might be leaving money to their grandchildren. Or maybe three, if they live long enough to have great-grandchildren.

The society-level utilitarianism makes sense to me. But it's also up against a certain ethical egoism, and a sense of family values, that dictates that a person's main drive is to benefit his/her family, now and in the future.
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Re: US Midterm Elections

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Moniker wrote:But, as I see it, if a rich man has earned his money his entire life, why shouldn't he be able pass it on to his progeny, unimpeded?
Even if one assumes that a very rich person has "earned" his wealth and done so "fairly" in any meaningful sense of the term, the fact of the matter is that, no matter his circumstances, he did not build his entire fortune by himself: in most any instance you can imagine he has had numerous lower-level workers (yes, these days some of the huge tech companies only employ a handful of people, but they're an exception), public infrastructure (even those aforementioned companies didn't come up with the internet by themselves), and various incentives, "official" and otherwise, that others rarely have access to (slews of tax breaks and legal exceptions, for one). Nobody lives in a complete bubble, though a handful of our most shamelessly selfish affluent types are doing their damndest to make it seem like they do - moreover, neither ordinary workers nor the government ever gets back anything close to what they put into ventures like this (you're probably already aware that the states which pay the least in federal taxes receive much more than what they contribute, in aid and funding).

Even if you ignore all of that, the fact remains that for pretty much everyone for whom stuff like this even applies (again, I'd have to dig it up, but on the federal level, at least, estate taxes only apply to a very small and VERY rich subsegment; state equivalents are likely a different matter) will still have many lifetimes' worth of wealth to do with as they please even once the government has taken it share: remember, back in the 50's (under a Republican, might I add), the most prosperous time in the nation's history, the top federal tax rate was over 90 percent (at the moment I think it's in the mid-to-high 30's, and only after Obama caved, again, and let it stay at the Bush-era low 30's for an extra year or two). Were there still rich people? Absolutely. Did they do very well and pass on tons to their kids? They sure did. Did they rule over the rest of us as untouchable gods and kings the way they do now? Hell no, and I'll spit in the face of anyone who claims that they've "earned" that right with the way things have been going for everyone else since then.

THAT is the line in the sand as far as I'm concerned: few, if any, no matter how liberal they are, think it's "wrong" to be rich or otherwise successful in a material sense, nor do many believe that certain people shouldn't make a fair deal more than others (and if they do, they've been rightly banished to the margins; not so much for their equivalents on the right that worship the free market as an incorruptible force of nature, evidence to the contrary be damned). It's the point when you cross from "I'm rich" to "I'm rich AND I don't owe any of you filthy peasants a spare thought" that things start to go south, and while I doubt that the plurality of wealthy people actually feel that way, the mindset is being glorified to the point of disgust by those who would use it to further their own ends, and there hasn't been nearly enough pushback in the form of "sorry, but you do NOT have the right to grow rich via the severe detriment of the country and/or the species. Sorry, no, you just don't."
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Re: US Midterm Elections

Post by Mischief Maker »

This thread reminds me of an old quote:
Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.
Two working class dudes, one black one white, just baked a tray of ten cookies together.

An oligarch walks in and grabs nine cookies for himself.

Then he says to the white dude "Watch out for that black dude, he wants a piece of your cookie!"
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Re: US Midterm Elections

Post by BryanM »

Moniker wrote:I mean, I get the long-term bad implications of inherited wealth, but it still doesn't make bedrock sense to me. If a man works hard his whole life to make a better future for his sons and daughters, where is the philosophical justification for taking away that life he spent all his days building?
The death tax only applies to wealth above $5 million given on to a non-spouse.

It used to be $3.5 mil, but, then, Obama.
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Re: US Midterm Elections

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@BryanM
What exactly do you mean by being stupid enough to be born into poverty?
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Re: US Midterm Elections

Post by xorthen »

BulletMagnet wrote:
Doctor Butler wrote:It's a little ironic that many opponents of immigration seem to be completely complacent when it comes to outsourcing.
Not to mention the whole "Well-connected billionaires hiding trillions in assets in tax havens = capitalist heroes" versus "Voiceless immigrant laborers not paying taxes on their slave wages = criminal freeloaders" thing. And the whole "hunt down all the illegals one by one and deport them, and build a national border fence at any cost...but NEVER prosecute or otherwise inconvenience the businesses that illegally hire them openly and in droves, thus giving them a reason to come here in the first place, not to mention push down compensation for the rest of us in the process."
Good point. I see a local company hire tons a illegals and it's crappy because they still remain in poverty after working such hard and shitty jobs.
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Re: US Midterm Elections

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Moniker wrote:I gave that a read, but I'm having trouble understanding the rationale behind the proposed increase of estate taxes being a good thing. He categorizes the current upper class as being either inheritors or earners. But, as I see it, if a rich man has earned his money his entire life, why shouldn't he be able pass it on to his progeny, unimpeded? It's literally his money, after all, Why shouldn't he get to decide where it goes after he dies?

I'm not pushing a position, merely asking for comment.
This is a pretty reasonable question of course. So a person born into wealth obviously shouldn't be punished for that fact. (I also do view the requests of the dead seriously, but when it comes to how volatile wealth and capital are administered, the needs of the living obviously outweigh the wishes of the deceased - who actually don't have any wishes that we can know about, because they are dead. It's worth noting that people don't always faithfully observe the preferences of the dead; wills get challenged and even public boons, like a 1600s "in eternity" park grant, sometimes get trashed.)

But the same is true for people in poverty, whether they were born that way or find themselves the victim of fate. And evidence suggests that these people have a harder time bouncing back than do people born into wealth.

Wealth translates into more wealth in different ways. Even if there aren't tangible assets to follow through generations, you can look at connections and education. In fact, a Georgetown University professor has done just that to try and track wealth transfer from slaves down to today, with the idea of giving that money back to black people (somehow). Dr. Richard America was one of the panelists on this show, if you wanted an idea (I also wrote a little post in the comments section, taking issue with this idea of a wealth transfer).

Estate taxes can be a way of ensuring that wealth doesn't spawn generations of idle wealth. We know not all these people are Bruce Waynes (actually, that's just a guess). I don't particularly want to cause anybody to lose the family home, but with a lot of this wealth - especially at the top - that's not actually going to happen anyway. An estate tax does not necessarily mean gutting the fortune entirely. It can mean, however, that those fortunes don't snowball over the generations without the heirs having to really earn it.

So I wrote the post not thinking about estate taxes - I think the capital / earned wages distinction, on the other hand is very compelling and probably represents lower-hanging fruit, at least when setting out the moral case for erasing that distinction.

Some random links from Pando:
A bunch of arguments for limiting CEO pay, and also some more facts:
US corporations make more after-tax profits today than they have in the entire 85 years the Commerce Department has been keeping track. Meanwhile, employer-paid compensation, which includes wages and employer contributions to health care and social security, are at their lowest level since 1948. Making matters worse, the compensation CEOs receive has skyrocketed to 273 times what an average worker makes. By comparison, in the 1960s, the CEO-to-employee pay ratio was only 20:1.
It's hard to have a first-class nation, with strong infrastructure and people able to create new infrastructure and contributions on their own, when they don't make according to their inputs - especially when they're barely subsisting, as so many do.

Us on the "left" (or really the old-fashioned center, or even right-of-center!) are being expected to be all nice and helpful about this, while guys who game the system in pay-to-play schemes thumb their nose at scandal - like that engulfing Chris Christie and MA candidate Charlie Baker, who may both well believe themselves to be out of the reach of the law. And, as I said elsewhere, I think Donald Sterling's comments weren't just odious because of the race angle, but because of the economic paternalism. He was apparently quite open about screwing people over just because he wanted to. It's his money, right?

So, where do we need to be - do things need to be absolutely democratic (in the sense that anybody can participate), or should we be happy if they are just a little bit democratic? Final Pando link:
That doesn’t sound like democratizing education, if only the affluent can afford the version that works.

I would be careful to say this is not democratizing it. Any alternative path is actually much more expensive. We managed to lower the cost by a factor of ten. Going to the extreme and saying it has to be absolutely free might be a bit premature. I care about making education work. Everything else being equal, I would love to do this at the lowest possible price point. Where we’ve converged is right. You don’t need a college degree anymore. I would be careful with the conclusion that this is the end of democratization. We still have the free model for students. It just doesn’t work as well — it’s just a fact.
What a company like Udacity offers is a way to push things out to people. It's not a perfect solution, but it's something. Likewise, there aren't terribly many people who seriously believe that we should go full tilt towards central planning and the like - I would argue that will be wasteful. Perhaps it wouldn't be as wasteful as Red October, but when we can get much closer to where we want to be with relatively (both conceptually and politically) minor policy tweaks and fixes, I'd go that way for greater likelihood of success and also less disruption to people everywhere. At least for me, this isn't at all about class rivalries; it's a problem to be delineated and solved in an essentially technocratic, by-the-numbers fashion, and guided by good principles - standards for policy that stand up to dispassionate scrutiny. This one, for instance, would be "we aren't looking to screw people over just 'cuz they're rich or lucky."
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Re: US Midterm Elections

Post by Doctor Butler »

I don't want to strip the rich of their wealth, I just wish they'd pay their employees and their taxes, so I didn't have to do it for them.
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Thank you. Exactly. I think you'll find this very interesting http://www.wolf-pac.com/the_plan
xorthen wrote:@BryanM
What exactly do you mean by being stupid enough to be born into poverty?
He was being sarcastic.
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Re: US Midterm Elections

Post by BryanM »

Ed Oscuro wrote:An estate tax does not necessarily mean gutting the fortune entirely. It can mean, however, that those fortunes don't snowball over the generations without the heirs having to really earn it.
If you can manage to Not Die for 40 years, just having it on hand with a 15% tax on capital gains yields 3.7x what was started with. If they then die and the full 40% estate tax is applied to that (which it isn't, but just saying), it comes out to 2.2x. At an inflation rate of 1.5%, the multiplier required to break even would be 1.81. Ergo, by not doing anything at all, the money ball accumulated +21% in size. Assuming there wasn't any tax evasion to make it even bigger.

Without taxes at all the wad would have grown +500% in size over that time, and I don't know if that's really snowballing since one guy would literally own everything within a hundred years.

It's obvious extrapolated to its logical conclusion, Marx's example of being able to afford a gold sphere centered where the sun is with a radius that reaches out to Jupiter would be achievable well before the 1,000 years he mentions for these folks. Currency isn't wealth, you can't eat it or buy something that doesn't exist with it (like said gold sphere, or gasoline after peak oil). It's just a rationing system we're using.

Honestly never considered this before (politics on the internet tends to get drowned out by Fox News drones, which makes us all collectively lazier and more awful), but taxes are the reason a dollar means anything at all.
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Re: US Midterm Elections

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Oh, and I could have given this short-form response above, instead:
http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2 ... n-t-a-joke
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Re: US Midterm Elections

Post by Xyga »

BulletMagnet wrote:good stuff
I always like to quote Bob: http://www.angryflower.com/348.html
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