NESRGB board available now

[Voultar]

It's a lot of work, but if you had another NES to install the NESRGB on and see if that interference still occurs, that could rule out if it's the NESRGB or the NES itself.

I've thrown the NESRGB in an NES-CPU 10, NES-CPU 8, and NES-CPU 11 motherboard revisions, all yielding the same results. Not to mention, my Twin Famicom is also affected. I've tested with various Televisions, and I was surprised to see that the external encoder yielded the same results. Hopefully Tim can come up with a couple of different suggestions.

I'm watching various NESRGB video's on Youtube, and I'm seeing the same diagonal interference on several video's.

[ms06fz]

*sigh* I wish faint diagonal lines were the extent of the picture issues from my (not yet modded) Fami...

[Voultar]

*sigh* I wish faint diagonal lines were the extent of the picture issues from my (not yet modded) Fami...

Care to define faint?



That's fairly distinguishable.

[Pasky]

I don't get those bars on mine, maybe it's a specific batch? Unsure at this point, problem definitely doesn't seem to be on your end, but I haven't heard anyone else having the problem either. Is this your first NESRGB?

[Voultar]

I don't get those bars on mine, maybe it's a specific batch? Unsure at this point, problem definitely doesn't seem to be on your end, but I haven't heard anyone else having the problem either. Is this your first NESRGB?

I've installed 6 kits. These two (Twin Famicom and Front-Loader) are my personal systems. I've skimmed through the thread, and quite a few people have made mention of this. And despite using excellent cabling, people are ultimately just dealing with it.

Interestingly enough, the NESRGB kits in my systems are using different SMD components than the original kits. Not that this should make any difference, but it's just an observation.

[Pasky]

Bummer, not sure. Mine doesn't have it on any of my TVs or my capture card. This is my NESRGB from the 2013 initial batch:





I have one from the 3rd batch but haven't installed it yet. I really hope it doesn't have that also.

[Voultar]

What's interesting is that these two boards that I'm personally using are using different components. Obviously Tim changed some things around on his B.O.M. I have no evidence to suggest that it's the culprit of this issue, but I have exhausted all other possibilities to the best of my knowledge. And I can almost say unequivocally that the problem isn't a result of anything on my end.

[ms06fz]

*sigh* I wish faint diagonal lines were the extent of the picture issues from my (not yet modded) Fami...

Care to define faint?

...

That's fairly distinguishable.

Just lamenting the continued non-availability of the boards. Don't really mean to say that your interference is a non-issue. But on my systems, I've still got all the usual color bleed and jagged lines, and my LCD seems to react really badly to composite signals out of either of my NES/Fami systems, producing horizontally-shifted checkerboard "echoes" of large color zones elsewhere in the frame in certain areas of certain games. So while the interference you're getting is an issue and I can appreciate your desire to solve it... Well, you get where I'm coming from, right?

I just need to be patient, though. The boards will be ready when they are ready.

[antron]

and my LCD seems to react really badly to composite signals out of either of my NES/Fami systems, producing horizontally-shifted checkerboard "echoes" of large color zones elsewhere in the frame in certain areas of certain games.

me too, it's crazy. I just have to wonder what in the world the TV thinks it's doing. And how does the NES confuse it so badly.

[ms06fz]

and my LCD seems to react really badly to composite signals out of either of my NES/Fami systems, producing horizontally-shifted checkerboard "echoes" of large color zones elsewhere in the frame in certain areas of certain games.

me too, it's crazy. I just have to wonder what in the world the TV thinks it's doing. And how does the NES confuse it so badly.

I dunno. When I first had the problem I thought it was a problem with my NES, then I got my Fami and it had the problem too... And connected my NES to a Commodore monitor and, surprise surprise, no problems there... So from now on before I buy a TV it has to pass the NES test.

Not entirely sure what to make of the problem... Though some of the NES palette is outside the RGB color space, maybe that has something to do with it. Maybe it's just blasting too much color intensity at the display... If so, then the problem will likely disappear once I NESRGB-mod the console.

[Pasky]

So I just tested a plethora of shielded S-Video cables with both my v1.3 NESRGB Twin Famicom, and Front Loader. It has done nothing to help with the diagonal lines issue.

To help eliminate various components from being the culprit of this issue, I decided to quickly wire up my EXTERNAL RGB to S-Video/Composite encoder.

This little board is pulling RGB+Sync directly from the NESRGB outputs.

[pic]

And wouldn't you know, even when externally encoding RGB to S-Video/Composite, the diagonal lines are still there. (Yes, I used multiple different sources for Sync, including CS)

[pic]

Ultimately, I'm out of idea's. Contrary to what Tim stated, I know it isn't my cables, nor is it a grounding issue. That's been verified. So what else can we look for, other than the NESRGB itself? All of my testing is indicating that it is in-fact a problem residing within the NESRGB.

I just noticed that you're still using the outputs from the encoder here. If it's worth it to you, you could try temporarily removing the ROHM video encoder on the NESRGB, and running the RGB input pads to your external encoder and see if the cross hatching still exists.

[darcagn]

I don't get those bars on mine, maybe it's a specific batch? Unsure at this point, problem definitely doesn't seem to be on your end, but I haven't heard anyone else having the problem either. Is this your first NESRGB?

I've installed 6 kits. These two (Twin Famicom and Front-Loader) are my personal systems. I've skimmed through the thread, and quite a few people have made mention of this. And despite using excellent cabling, people are ultimately just dealing with it.

Interestingly enough, the NESRGB kits in my systems are using different SMD components than the original kits. Not that this should make any difference, but it's just an observation.

I think more people have them than they realize, it's just so faint that most aren't noticing.

I mentioned in a previous post that I had completely eliminated them by using a retro_console_accessories cable, but after hearing Voultar talk about his issues I decided to plug in the NES once more and capture some footage (mostly, so I could prove to him that there are some of us with setups that have no lines whatsoever).

But no, I'm incorrect, at least for mine. After playing the NES for an hour or so and not seeing any lines, I captured some footage of me playing SMB3. You can view it here (right-click and save-as--it's like 700+MB for 7 mins of footage and the bitrate is too high to reliably stream). I played it back and didn't notice any lines, until about 1:48, I was proven wrong, you can see them very visibly against the blue sky in the bonus cloud area.

So I went back and hooked up the capture card again and went to that point in the game and set the XRGB-mini to zoom in.



It's so extremely faint that on my television I honestly can't really see it, but on my computer monitor through the capture card I can see it (if just barely). It's still there, and might be on many others' or just some who had a similar batch, but it's definitely there.

At this point, I'm unconcerned about it because it's really not visible on my TV. But it's still there.

[Voultar]

I was really hoping to hear back from Tim before doing anything invasive or unnecessary. I may tap the RGB inputs tonight. I just hope Tim will look into this a little deeper.

@Darcagn, I saw your NESRGB on YouTube, and during your epic battle against Bubbleman, the diagonal lines were quite pronounced, even after crappier YouTube compression. If you look in the overscan area on the right side, it's Jailbar city.

Had you updated your cables before or after that video?

[Pasky]

Ah, ya, if you do decide to try the inputs, be sure to remove the ROHM encoder to rule out any possible interference coming from it.

[darcagn]

@Darcagn, I saw your NESRGB on YouTube, and during your epic battle against Bubbleman, the diagonal lines were quite pronounced, even after crappier YouTube compression. If you look in the overscan area on the right side, it's Jailbar city.

Had you updated your cables before or after that video?

That was when I was not only using a crappy set of cables, but I was using composite video as sync with those crappy cables.

I since switched to composite sync which cleared up the lines.

But now I'm using a new NES with a different NESRGB and a multiout connector, which is wired for both c-sync and c-video, but the retro_console_accessories cable I have is using the c-video pin for sync. That's what the video above and screenshot is on.

I just now ordered another cable from retro_console_accessories, this time the one that's wired for c-sync. We'll see if that completely eliminates all problems for me.

By the way, I just updated the Mega Man 2 video, now using my current setup (multiout with c-video as sync/retro_console_accessories cable). I don't see any lines on this game at all. Do you?

[viletim]

I was really hoping to hear back from Tim before doing anything invasive or unnecessary. I may tap the RGB inputs tonight. I just hope Tim will look into this a little deeper.

Try this PLD software instead.
http://etim.net.au/temp/forum/nesrgb_no ... r_test.pof

I have disabled the colour subcarrier output. There will be no colour for V and C/Y, but RGB is unaffected.

[Voultar]

I was really hoping to hear back from Tim before doing anything invasive or unnecessary. I may tap the RGB inputs tonight. I just hope Tim will look into this a little deeper.

Try this PLD software instead.
http://etim.net.au/temp/forum/nesrgb_no ... r_test.pof

I have disabled the colour subcarrier output. There will be no colour for V and C/Y, but RGB is unaffected.

I appreciate the response, Tim. But my current setup is through S-Video, it's currently my only means of connectivity so I really can't disable it. I've decided to buckle down with an XRGB-Mini in the very soon future.

[Pasky]

You should be able to get Luma still. And be able to see if the interference is gone in a black and white picture.

[Voultar]

You should be able to get Luma still. And be able to see if the interference is gone in a black and white picture.

I've already lifted the Chroma pin, and verified that the interference isn't coming from from the Luma signal. That's a page or so back.

[Pasky]

Oh that's right. My mistake. Although it may be possible the sub carrier input line was causing interference within the encoder itself.

[Voultar]

Oh that's right. My mistake. Although it may be possible the sub carrier input line was causing interference within the encoder itself.

That's quite possible. I know that the interference is occurring before it reaches the output pads on the board. I wired a high quality shielded cable directly to the Y/C, and ground outputs, yielding the same results. Mind you, multiple Televisions later. I've tried to eliminate all external factors.


EDIT:

What can I say; Desperate people do desperate things.




Meh, not really. After looking at the datasheet for the bh7236af, I quickly came to the realization that it's just a knock-off the Sony CXA2075 encoder. I was pretty confident that the encoder itself had nothing to do with the interference, but I wanted to move along and eliminate it from the equation. So, after a quick reflow of this surface-package swap, I can tell you that the CXA2075 yields no difference.

So, what do we know? (At least from my own experience)

1) The encoder probably isn't the culprit. I dropped a pin compatible CXA2075 in place of the bh7236af, there was no change in output.
2) Both the NES and Twin Famicom are producing the same interference.
3) The interference seems stem from the color signals. If the Chroma signal is lifted, the Luma output has no diagonal jailbars.
3) We've eliminated both power and grounding issues, by using an array of various official adapters.
4) Shielded cable yields some, but very little difference in 45 degree jailbars.
5) Splicing into a shielded S-Video cable and terminating it directly to the Y/C, and Ground outputs yields no change. This eliminates the wiring from the NESRGB and to the Multi-Out being the culprit, as well as any sort of coupling issue that are happening away from the board. . We can safely assume that the interference is occurring somewhere on the board.
6) Multiple TV's have been tested.

[viletim]

Voultar,

Try attenuating the chroma signal from the NESRGB board.

[Voultar]

Voultar,

Try attenuating the chroma signal from the NESRGB board.

I'll give it another shot, Tim. I'll report back in 10 minutes.

[Voultar]

The pictures are kinda blurry, but the picture has improved a little by doing that. But the jailbars are still pretty bad.

What's interesting is, the jailbars don't move, but on a whim (or even on a pause screen) they can quickly change direction.

Here they are going travelling to the right. (Coin box)



And usually, right on time, they quickly change the direction that they travel.




Keep in mind, I'm testing this with an S-Video cable that's fully shielded, and terminated directly to the Y/C outputs.

Any other idea's, Tim? Attenuating did make a subtle difference, but it's definitely still there.


EDIT:

So out of boredom and curiousity, I decided to whip an S-Video circuit for the CXA2075, pulling Y/C directly off of pins 15 and 16 and outputting them to my breadboard.

No change in the diagonal interference. My thinking was that it could be some sort of cross-talk on the actual bus-lines of the NESRGB board, but that doesn't seem to be the case either.. Hrmm...

Could it be voltage/current issue? Perhaps the comparator? Or maybe even the DAC? Hell, I don't know. lol

[adimifus]

I had the same diagonal lines issue with s-video in my front loader. I believe i made a post about it a while back. I used very heavy and well shielded cables, so I doubt that's the issue. Besides which I've never seen diagonal lines like that when using the same cable in any other setup (i added s-video ports to my SNES, N64 and jaguar). I have since moved the board into an NES-101 with a multi-out (added) but I don't have an appropriate s-video cable to test if the diagonal interference still exists or not-- I don't have an s-video out socket installed on it like the front loader did. All I know is the interference is definitely NOT present in RGB. I use a retro console accessories SNES scart cable connected to a scart to bnc adapter I made with an lm1881 sync stripper, connected to a Kramer fc-14 RGB to YUV transcoder. With all of that madness, no video interference I can see.

[Voultar]

Well that's good to know. It will be a while until I have a proper RGB setup ready to go. I would just like to make the best out of S-Video as I possibly can at the moment.

What's unfortunate is that when I migrate over to SCART interfaces, my nice 8 port A/V switchers will be of no use.. Finding a suitable 8 input SCART switcher is proving to be difficult!

I've spoken to a lot of people who, despite the quality of cable, experience this diagonal Jailbar problem with S-Video.


Tim is on it. I believe he sees now that it's an issue beyond cabling. He'll figure something out with it.



EDIT: Tim, just so that you know; I did literally pull Chroma and Luma signals from the 2075 and put them onto the S-video amp/app circuit that I built on breadboard, there was no change. So I don't believe that the problem not only nothing to do with the encoder, but the signal path from the encoder and to the outputs of the NESRGB don't seem to be causing the issue, either. Perhaps it's what's being "fed" into the encoder?

It's somewhere else in the circuitry. Subcarrier, perhaps? As you indicated earlier, it's definitely, or probably clock interference.




I've systematically removed all external factors to the best of my ability.

I wonder is Hamburgler still follows this thread..

I'm having the same problem. Very faint diagonal lines running from the bottom left to the top right. Almost invisible. And they scroll slowly to the right.
Also, I get occasional glitch horizontal lines that only appear for a brief moment, maybe one frame. They're not horribly frequent, maybe once or twice a minute, and its maybe one or two lines across the screen.

Other than those two things, its great. The increased sharpness and clarity more than make up for those two things.

Yeah I am getting the occasional graphical glitch too. This is in a toaster. It's just a small line of graphical garble, not large or anything but I am just concerned it's something I did. If everyone is getting it though, it's not the end of the world. Just reporting that I'm seeing it.

Also here is a fix for the diagonal line interference. Instead of wiring up composite for sync, I wired up csync. It completely got rid of it for me.

It still shows up over s-video, though. Here's a screenshot I took:



It's not the end of the world since I've managed to fix it over RGB, but I'd love to know why it's there over s-video still. Or why it shows up if I use composite video for sync.

[adimifus]

He (Hamburglar) said he fixed the diagonal lines issue in RGB (the only output method that would use a separate sync signal) but said the problem persisted in s-video. My s-video output looked pretty much exactly like the picture he posted. It probably exists in the entire picture, but its really only noticeable in large areas of solid color.

I suspect the problem hasn't been reported from too many others because most people don't care about s-video. I don't even care too much anymore, since I use RGB now, which there are no issues with. I have all the outputs wired up to the multi-out mostly for sake of completeness, but it would be nice to know the outputs are all as good as they can be, in case a situation arises that I would need to use something other than RGB.

[lettuce]

I had noticed on the first nes i did that the ppu wasnt really making good contact in the round pin headers and i was getting glitches. I didnt have any problems testing it out when i plugged the ppu directly into the nes board though using the round headers that tim supplied.

the problem only showed up when i tried to use the round headers as a ppu socket on the nesrgb.
Soldering the ppu directly to the nesrgb solved the glitches.

Ok after having replaced the burnt out diodes and try the PPU chip by placing it in the socket connection and getting the garbled screen, i have taken the advice and have removed the socket connections and solder the PPU chip directly to the NES mainbaord, but im still get the same graphical glitches.

Here is Silent Service.....



and about 2 seconds later changes to this....



and this is my NES EverDrive Flash cart...



I have removed the PPU and replaced it with a replacement PPU chip i got from arcadecomponents.com (http://www.arcadecomponents.com/catalog ... 583135.htm) to see if the PPU chip was at fault, but i still got the same graphical glitches. I then tried the original PPU chip from this NES in another NTSC NES and got the same results yet again. I finally removed the replacement PPU chip from the (probably) duff NES, and tried that PPU in the other NES and i got a display fine.

So it looks like the original PPU chip that was in the NES when it got fried and the NES itself are both BUBAR. Is there anything else on the NES that might cause this graphical glitches that i can look at??

[TheRetromancer]

i'm beginning to think it's not the PPU. That looks exactly like a connection problem between the cart and the NES itself.

[Voultar]

If you haven't damaged a trace on the PPU, it's probably a buffer, or S-RAM.