petition to convince CAVE to release games on steam

[CloudyMusic]

There's also Yanya Caballista, that bizarre cel-shaded skateboarding game they made for the PS2

You blew my mind. I had no idea Cave made that, uh, thing. The only logo on the American box art was Koei's.

[Doctor Butler]

I can't figure out what your underlying desire is. Do you guys want to be able to play these games yourselves, because you have a lot of options already, some pricey (PCBs,j360,jPS2,Sega Saturn), some less legal (MAME), and some more ideal (region-free ports).

We can all easily import a console, and some shooters, but, personally I'd like to see the games become more accessible to the mainstream audience, to ensure the viability of STG devs in the future.

When I said "we're fucked" I didn't mean in regards to a convenient means to play these games, but rather "we have little opportunity to expand our community".

[Laurel_McFang]

Cave also made Princess Debut for natsume which was one of my favorite nintendo ds games. It's so strange, I mean both cave and Irem had high quality original qualities, but sadly never sold that well outside of their shmups.

Princess Debut:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Debut

They also did a MMO for shin megami tensei
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shin_Megam ... i:_Imagine

I also had never heard of nin2-jump which looks cool and I am sure people in this thread own:
http://youtu.be/Q55msQw7n9g

[MathU]

Let's petition CAVE to release games on GOG or some other guaranteed DRM-free distributor instead. Treasure already set a very poor example; let's not ask to screw things up even worse now.

[Pretas]

We can all easily import a console, and some shooters, but, personally I'd like to see the games become more accessible to the mainstream audience, to ensure the viability of STG devs in the future.

Becoming more accessible to the mainstream is hardly a guarantee that said mainstream will actually show any interest in the genre or buy its games in meaningful numbers. There have been quite a few localized Japanese STGs on 360 and PS3 at this point (and some PC doujins), and none of them really found any traction outside the established audience of STG fans. Deathsmiles may be an exception, but it failed to make back Aksys' investment due to overproduction of copies.

[Zorator]

Yes, Cave's games would do great on a smaller service. I thought part of the reason people want Steam ports was the potential mass exposure?

[Pretas]

Since Greenlight opened the floodgates to anyone and everyone who wants to release a game, it's been much harder for smaller games without significant marketing budgets to get noticed on Steam. It's a similar situation to what happened with Xbox Indie Games. Cave would have had better luck a few years ago.

[Doctor Butler]

We can all easily import a console, and some shooters, but, personally I'd like to see the games become more accessible to the mainstream audience, to ensure the viability of STG devs in the future.

Becoming more accessible to the mainstream is hardly a guarantee that said mainstream will actually show any interest in the genre or buy its games in meaningful numbers. There have been quite a few localized Japanese STGs on 360 and PS3 at this point (and some PC doujins), and none of them really found any traction outside the established audience of STG fans. Deathsmiles may be an exception, but it failed to make back Aksys' investment due to overproduction of copies.

I understand that, but it's better to try to do something positive, than to just sit in the corner an lament our genre's demise like Trap15 seems to be doing.

You gave examples of console games, which have higher overhead and production costs. Steam, on the other hand, enables impulse buys, because it's dirt, cheap, and costs the publisher next to nothing. I personally don't use Steam, or any digital-only storefront, for that matter, but a lot of people do, and I'm sure Treasure or Final Form can tell you, even the casual, mainstream audience found on Steam are willing to drop bills on a shooter, given it falls within their (frankly delusional and self-absorbed) perception of what a game is worth financially.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Yes, Cave's games would do great on a smaller service. I thought part of the reason people want Steam ports was the potential mass exposure?

Playism.com seems to be a digital store for localised doujins so that would suit any STG dev, plus from what I understand is that they give out steam keys with purchases too.

Steam seems to be going down the shitter atm and looks more like XBLIG with each passing day, I can't imagine any under the radar game selling well atm, if Jamestown released today it probably would have been quickly lost with all the other indies and re-releases flooding the store. Hopefully Stores like Playism can pick up the slack and provide games with the much needed PR for launch cycle sales. I guess most PC gamers just keep tabs on Humble Bundles and similar fire sales for indie games.

As for the OP's question, I think a couple of years ago the XBLA port of Guwange would have made sense just to give PC shmuppers who play Touhou / doujins a taste of a "AAA" shmup, as other have said the boat has sailed where CAVE and arcade STG's are.

I'm interested in how that mech doujin Gunhound EX sells on Steam compared to PSP

[Pretas]

Gunhound EX isn't doujin, it's a professional commercial release. The PSP version even had a limited edition.

[Squire Grooktook]

We can all easily import a console, and some shooters, but, personally I'd like to see the games become more accessible to the mainstream audience, to ensure the viability of STG devs in the future.

Becoming more accessible to the mainstream is hardly a guarantee that said mainstream will actually show any interest in the genre or buy its games in meaningful numbers. There have been quite a few localized Japanese STGs on 360 and PS3 at this point (and some PC doujins), and none of them really found any traction outside the established audience of STG fans. Deathsmiles may be an exception, but it failed to make back Aksys' investment due to overproduction of copies.

Like I said, I'm aware that shmups are niche and nothing will change that, but IMO for the past decade or so shmups have been far more niche than they need to be due to the sheer inconvenience of obtaining them.

For example, I have like, 30 friends/acquaintances on the internet who are not shmups players. However, they all like shmups. And over the past 2 or 3 years they've spent a fair bit of money on shmups on Steam. Now I might have been willing to jump through hoops in obtaining these games, but I doubt they would have spent any of that money if they had to import/buy a new console/play a game not in English/etc.

Even though shmup fanatics are very niche, I do believe that there are a lot of people out there who "get" shmups. People who understand skill based gaming, and are involved with "hardcore" genres but who simply aren't numero uno shmups fans above all else. If these people had easier/more convenient ways to purchase shmups, I think they would serve as a fairly decent additional customer bases for shmups as well as possibly drawing more people into the niche of "true" shmup players.

Of course, a large part of this gambit is that the ports to pc in question would have to be cheap/easy/slapdash enough that the devs can just slap it on there without any real risk. Obviously this isn't always viable.

[lemonhead]

Another day, another petition ...

[Formless God]

Let's petition CAVE to release games on GOG or some other guaranteed DRM-free distributor instead. Treasure already set a very poor example; let's not ask to screw things up even worse now.

Man you're like a bot.

Are Steamworks features required for distribution on Steam?

Many of our Steamworks features are popular with customers – like Steam Cloud support and Achievements. While we recommend that you include them in your games, they are not required.

[ciox]

Let's petition CAVE to release games on GOG or some other guaranteed DRM-free distributor instead. Treasure already set a very poor example; let's not ask to screw things up even worse now.

Man you're like a bot.

Are Steamworks features required for distribution on Steam?
Many of our Steamworks features are popular with customers – like Steam Cloud support and Achievements. While we recommend that you include them in your games, they are not required.

Yeah, Ikaruga even got an offline mode patch soon after release.

[Some-Mist]

I understand that, but it's better to try to do something positive, than to just sit in the corner an lament our genre's demise like Trap15 seems to be doing.

You gave examples of console games, which have higher overhead and production costs. Steam, on the other hand, enables impulse buys, because it's dirt, cheap, and costs the publisher next to nothing. I personally don't use Steam, or any digital-only storefront, for that matter, but a lot of people do, and I'm sure Treasure or Final Form can tell you, even the casual, mainstream audience found on Steam are willing to drop bills on a shooter, given it falls within their (frankly delusional and self-absorbed) perception of what a game is worth financially.

I don't like speaking for other people... but trap has a good head on his shoulders and understands how the game is played. let me just reiterate one of my points one more time (this time without the sarcasm). CAVE has tried to market titles over here in the west which haven't done much for the company - if it had we would have seen more localizations by CAVE and/or region-free games. It didn't generate enough interest in the west just as mushihimesama futari on steam probably wouldn't do much for the company either. If anything it would primarily help out those individuals who didn't vote with their wallet and purchase their titles in the first place. There's very little incentive for them to reach out to a market that isn't receptive to their work, and it should be the gamers who show their support and dedication for CAVE by purchasing their current titles on whatever platform they're on. voting with your wallet is a much more powerful concept than writing your real/fake names on an internet petition. But then again... I guess it doesn't hurt for you guys to try - so have at it.

I also don't know the cost structure that's associated with digital game publishing since I don't actually publish games, but if it were actually a viable outlet for CAVE... don't you think they've considered it already? you also have to take into consideration that with their low sales numbers they make money on their high priced pcbs and console ports. reducing the price of the game to a bargain bin price means they would potentially make less on each title sold. and these "gamers" that want to dabble in the genre aren't going to want to pay $30 for the digital release of a shmup they'll probably play once. I don't know how true this is, but Tim Schafer in the "making of broken age" documentary stated they make the exact same amount of profit if they sell a $60 physical game or a $30 digital game. cave's games sell through retailers anywhere from $70-90 for console ports.

But I bet if cave did go digital, that we'd still have a buncha people complaining that they want a physical release.

to touch on another one of your points - lament our genre's demise? if anything, there seemed to be a resurgence which led to a golden modern age for the genre during the two previous gaming generations - especially when taking CAVE's library into account. We've seen a huge influx of releases from cave between 2004 and 2013. and we're still seeing some great titles from other great companies (triangle service, moss, g.rev, qute). Keep in mind that the new generation is still fresh and it'll probably be another year before the genre is established on another platform. I would love if it's on PC, but I'll follow the genre wherever I need to. Also.. if CAVE were to go under, there's nothing stopping Ikeda and other influential individuals from forming a new company just like how cave spawned from toaplan/raizing.

[Some-Mist]

this goes for Doctor Butler too, but..

Even though shmup fanatics are very niche, I do believe that there are a lot of people out there who "get" shmups.

I think it's a mixed bag. among the general gaming consumer population there's still the notion that shmups are something to credit feed and then throw into the pile. I have two roommates who love gaming and enjoy futari, ikaruga, jamestown, etc... but the concept of scoring in a shmup is completely lost on them. they're not willing to invest time playing the same game over and over again for practice and I don't think "mainstream" gamers are willing to either. even developers don't completely understand the genre - just look at grasshopper's attempt with sine mora. It's also why I love individuals like Yagawa who actually play(ed) shmups and can understand how to create a difficult one without jeopardizing the scope of the project.

call these hypothetical situations pretentious or whatever you will, but another thing to keep in mind is with accessibility comes a price. when you're reaching out to a more mainstream audience you also have to make the game accessible for that audience. the general gaming audience isn't going to want to learn how to medal chain while dodging bullets to score enough for extends to suicide to manage rank. they're going to want something that's pick up and play (i.e. CoD even though it's not really an apt comparison) with neat addons or tiny hats for your reco or palm purchasable character. and not that any of this would happen... but if the genre gained mainstream appeal larger companies are going to want a piece of the pie. imagine if a company like activision ran around running smaller shmup devs out of the business or buying them out. then we'd get to see the shovelware and cookie cutter approach that hit the FPS genre so hard make a new appearance in the genre we all love.

I like the current and foreseeable future state of the genre. judging by the self-introduction thread it seems we have a healthy influx of new players too.

[Despatche]

they are willing to play the same game over and over again, just not these games

it's a scummy bandwagon that needs to be forcibly removed, nothing more

[MathU]

Are Steamworks features required for distribution on Steam?

Many of our Steamworks features are popular with customers – like Steam Cloud support and Achievements. While we recommend that you include them in your games, they are not required.

Well gee, no shit... I am well aware of that and it's really starting to get rather insulting when Steam fanboys just assume detractors don't know that you can sell games without their scummy CEG bullshit and then attack you for it. Did I give any indication that I wasn't aware of that? More often than not in fact I am the one correcting people on this.

Why would you want it on Steam specifically? Why not another distributor that's guaranteed not to have DRM? That is essentially what you're asking for when you ask for Steam to be the distributor.

Yeah, Ikaruga even got an offline mode patch soon after release.

Offline mode is still DRM.

[Despatche]

do people bitch really really hard about steam cloud/achievements and basically make it de facto though

[Formless God]

Why would you want it on Steam specifically?

I never asked for anything to be on Steam. Correcting misinformation doesn't make me a Steam fanboy.

don't know that you can sell games without their scummy CEG bullshit

Seeing as you keep throwing the word "guaranteed" around you clearly don't.

Why not another distributor that's guaranteed not to have DRM? That is essentially what you're asking for when you ask for Steam to be the distributor.

If games can be run by just double clicking the executable then what part of it is "guaranteed DRM"? DRM integration is completely up to the developer/publisher.

[Some-Mist]

they are willing to play the same game over and over again, just not these games

it's a scummy bandwagon that needs to be forcibly removed, nothing more

I guess you're right - especially when looking at a community like DOTA for example where it's basically the same thing over and over again. it's hard to put a finger on what attributes to the throwaway nature of shmups, but it's probably something as simple as the learning curve or the "arcadey" presentation.

[ptoing]

It also is due to the fact that stuff like DOTA and the likes are multiplayer.

[Squire Grooktook]

this goes for Doctor Butler too, but..

Even though shmup fanatics are very niche, I do believe that there are a lot of people out there who "get" shmups.

I think it's a mixed bag. among the general gaming consumer population there's still the notion that shmups are something to credit feed and then throw into the pile. I have two roommates who love gaming and enjoy futari, ikaruga, jamestown, etc... but the concept of scoring in a shmup is completely lost on them.

Yes, but I'm not talking about those people. I'm more talking about players who are already "hardcore" to some degree (fighting game players, oldschool fps players, etc.) who like shmups to some degree...maybe even enough to go for 1cc or 2 for a few shmups, but simply don't care enough to inconvenience themselves with imports/high costs, etc. and generally only dabble in the genre once in a while.

My point is that there's no real middleground today for shmup players: Either you are a committed hardcore fan of the genre who is willing to import, buy a 360, spend a lot of money, etc. etc... or your not able to play most of the new games released in the past ten years. It's hardcore or no core, with no middleground.

[mastermx]

I agree with Squire Grooktook. Most hardcore players I know wouldn't mind shmups. But there is no middle ground. These aren't Casuals, but they just aren't likely to import. And they would in no way buy a pcb either.

Looks like yotsubane is going to show the other devs how it's done.

[Some-Mist]

Yes, but I'm not talking about those people. I'm more talking about players who are already "hardcore" to some degree (fighting game players, oldschool fps players, etc.) who like shmups to some degree...maybe even enough to go for 1cc or 2 for a few shmups, but simply don't care enough to inconvenience themselves with imports/high costs, etc. and generally only dabble in the genre once in a while.

My point is that there's no real middleground today for shmup players: Either you are a committed hardcore fan of the genre who is willing to import, buy a 360, spend a lot of money, etc. etc... or your not able to play most of the new games released in the past ten years. It's hardcore or no core, with no middleground.

there is a middleground. there's shmups like jamestown, sine mora, ikaruga and iphone ports for cave games like espgaluda, deathsmiles, dodonpachi, and mushihimesama. there's more than enough options for people who don't want to buy a 360 or pay high import costs. likewise in the fighting genre... there are companies like CAVE who cater to an extremely small niche of gamers i.e. Arc System Works. There are also gamers who will find a way to play titles like guilty gear xrd -sign- despite it being an arcade-only release at the moment.

Looks like yotsubane is going to show the other devs how it's done.

just like treasure did
I'm curious how a title with not even half the recognition of ikaruga is going to do on steam - even at a $10 price point (I'm not sure if they announced a price yet but I'd pay $10-30 for it). but unlike ikaruga there's also a crapload of people who missed out on the physical edition and I'm sure are waiting for the digital release. should do pretty good for yotsubane.

[mastermx]

Looks like yotsubane is going to show the other devs how it's done.

just like treasure did
I'm curious how a title with not even half the recognition of ikaruga is going to do on steam - even at a $10 price point (I'm not sure if they announced a price yet but I'd pay $10-30 for it). but unlike ikaruga there's also a crapload of people who missed out on the physical edition and I'm sure are waiting for the digital release. should do pretty good for yotsubane.

Lol that is a good point. To be fair, I can't really say how yotsubane will handle it. But I'm hopeful that he will look before he leaps. When presented with quality and a decent price, people will buy. Jamestown is not as good as Ikaruga imo, but everyone brought it because of the price point/adjustable difficulty/beautiful aesthetic.

However much it sells, developers don't have as much to lose when they go digital. For yotsubane, his game doesn't need porting, it was built for pc.

As to the whole steam issue, this is what the gaming landscape has become. If a dev wants to make some decent sum, they go to steam. I have never seen an indie make it big on the pc market without the steam platform. I know GoG and others are good, but very few use em. And the more I think about it, the more I realise that cave can make some pretty decent passive income from their backlog if they port it to steam. It is complete lunacy for them to have their catalogue available on 360 and ios/android of all places yet neglect the pc market. It is INSANE. But alas, we are talking about cave here. They would never do that. And they are already dead. They have left the shmup/arcade business for good. I don't even know why people are still talking about the possibility of their revival.

They shut their English based social media outlets. They threw in the towel. I know about the rumors that they will be creating new shmups for the Xbox one, but i seriously wouldn't count on it.

[TransatlanticFoe]

And the more I think about it, the more I realise that cave can make some pretty decent passive income from their backlog if they port it to steam.

But it costs money to port and test said games - so the benefits would need to outweigh the costs. Given that the localised 360 versions didn't do so well, I can't imagine most people would touch them unless they were priced low - which makes it pretty hard to turn a profit.

Unless you just bundle up a bunch of roms with mame or something... in which case, why would anyone pay for it?

[Some-Mist]

I have never seen an indie make it big on the pc market without the steam platform.

minecraft.

And they are already dead. They have left the shmup/arcade business for good. I don't even know why people are still talking about the possibility of their revival.

you never know and only time will tell

[mastermx]

But it costs money to port and test said games

How much would it cost? I can't find much info on that. If 3 man team treasure can do it, surely cave can too. Even snk is porting everything. Is it really that tough for cave?

And they are already dead. They have left the shmup/arcade business for good. I don't even know why people are still talking about the possibility of their revival.

you never know and only time will tell

I hope you are right, I really do hope so.

[TransatlanticFoe]

But it costs money to port and test said games

How much would it cost? I can't find much info on that. If 3 man team treasure can do it, surely cave can too. Even snk is porting everything. Is it really that tough for cave?

Yes, because whilst Ikaruga is pretty much the mainstream posterboy for shmups, Cave probably wouldn't shift enough units of its catalogue to make it worthwhile. They're just not popular enough, plus you can emulate them already so the casual PC gamer has little incentive.

You're talking hiring developers and testers, or outsourcing. If you do it with a small team, it takes ages to be finished (or you effectively release a beta, patch it constantly and everyone hates you for releasing an unfinished product). Large team? More people to pay. When the payoff is Cave's cut of a £10 game, multiplied by the couple of hundred sales each one might get - you've probably paid a small team for a month or two.

I've no idea what SNK are up to, but have they even done anything new recently? What they're releasing is probably emulated rather than ported.