petition to convince CAVE to release games on steam

[kilauea]

Yeah, no way Cave would be dabbling in selling their games to the great unwashed at knock-down prices on a platform that supports Mame and it's illegal Roms.

(spoiler - they already have)

[Lord Satori]

This forum makes my blood pressure explode.

lol, I just wanted to take a random stab at a forum member, and you're the first person that came to mind. I couldn't resist.

[trap15]

? I wasn't talking about you, though you're certainly no favorite. I was talking about "idiot asks for petition to CAVE, people explain why that wouldn't work, idiot asks for petition to another company for CAVE". It's so just idiotic that I doubt even a drooling retard would be so thick.

[thetricker24]

lol, thank you man.

[n0rtygames]

Saidaioujou was worth £30 retail with it's different modes etc. but that doesn't mean that they would get £30 for it on Steam.

I'd honestly go for £20 on steam. I'd pay £30 again if they had a physical release on PC. I scooped up Crimzon Clover on PC for $30 and tbh I'd go double on that due to the quality of it. For the Nesica version coming to steam? I'd probably pay the same amounts (£20+). I know that I'm going to enjoy it for many months.

I don't like seeing developers drop to low prices - but y'know, that might be due to my profession. A good price tag is a statement imo. When there's a limited pool of players, being able to charge top dollar suggests that you're proud of the game and that all your existing fans will be equally happy with their purchase. So in some utopian world I'd say cater for only the niche.

I mean if I hate JRPGs, no amount of discounts, sales or whatever is going to make me want to buy a JRPG on account of me simply not being in to JRPG games. I'm pretty sure this is why Hori euro shmups tend to sell quite well. Casual players get nostalgic and will drop up to a tenner on them at a time - but if you show them a speedy vert and it's like trying to wash a cat.

tl;dr - shmups are not big business, but that doesn't mean there's no business in shmups. Just don't go thinking that merely being on Steam will add all these magical sales. For that to happen, the game still needs to be accessible to casuals and these games have not been that way for a long long time.

GSK has also hitten many nails on their heads with his posts.

? I wasn't talking about you, though you're certainly no favorite. I was talking about "idiot asks for petition to CAVE, people explain why that wouldn't work, idiot asks for petition to another company for CAVE". It's so just idiotic that I doubt even a drooling retard would be so thick.

STG developers are philanthropists and their games are not created for the purpose of making money nor do they employ mechanisms in arcade environments to maximize the extraction of coins from wallets. They are all made for modern gamers with youtube channels and the genre is art!*

What came first, the superplayer or the rank system?


* Italic portions of this post are indicative of opinions held in an alternative dimension. Possibly home to lizard people.

[Laurel_McFang]

Peak steam players (at one time) for Ikaruga 335:
http://steamcharts.com/app/253750

Steam achievements notes 525 players have at least beaten the first boss.
Hence looks like Ikaruga is doing ok, but it's not a million seller by any means.
Comparatively Braid had 925 at it's peak and call of duty has around 55,000 players at peak hence
Sales could be around 1/15 of CoD on steam which isn't bad.

P.s. Less hopeful of Cave on steam and more doujins. Touhou needs to come to steam along with dozens of great comiket games.

Btw Cave is fairly dead in terms of development I thought. Would prefer to see G.Rev or Treasure doing more on Steam.

P.p.s. Would love to see SNK ports pulstar to steam and viewpoint if possible. The iOS version of Blazing Star... Omg... That game requires a joystick and is useless on iOS with out it.

[Some-Mist]

another petition lol. I'm sure Cave hasn't considered porting their games to pc yet... so this one is sure to work especially seeing as steam is so huge in Japan

[mastermx]

I think Jamestown's success, was heavily due to the low price tag.

There are many Japanese devs who don't subscribe to this though. And this isn't only in the shmups world, for example, Square Enix are known for their pricey mobile ports.

[Casey120]

A certain Korean seller on Ebay already sells most CAVE games for PC

About a tenner a piece, rejoice !

[Some-Mist]

? I wasn't talking about you, though you're certainly no favorite. I was talking about "idiot asks for petition to CAVE, people explain why that wouldn't work, idiot asks for petition to another company for CAVE". It's so just idiotic that I doubt even a drooling retard would be so thick.

to be fair... I never knew how annoying and idiotic port begging was until I was a few months into the hobby and on the other side of the game.

I used to port beg until I realized that the best way to play the games you want.... is to buy the platform that the games are on.
that and I realized CAVE doesn't listen to us... if they did, we would've had an ibara/ibara kuro port by now or at least that "scrapped/almost completed" dangun feveron m2 port.

[Cagar]

people comparing MAME to a fully-featured, proper port

I seriously think that touhou would sell well on steam; at least "sell well" as in "be profitable".
I think that CAVE would sell pretty well too, and get new players to the genre.. but considering the amount of employees and their wicked pricing, it's not gonna happen. Sadly.

[Zorator]

Hasn't this been attempted before? Cave is a niche developer, I'm sure they are very aware of Steam and have considered it already. They aren't waiting for X amount of people to express interest in the form of a petition or a barrage of social media posts. No amount of this malarkey is going to change their minds, because, among many other reasons, petitions and general interest do not necessarily translate into sales.

[Pretas]

In all seriousness, Cave should return to snowboarding games. They were leaders in the genre through the 32-bit era, with only Nintendo's 1080 matching them in quality.

[Ghegs]

In all seriousness, Cave should return to snowboarding games. They were leaders in the genre through the 32-bit era, with only Nintendo's 1080 matching them in quality.

I'd honestly be thrilled if they made one more entry to the Touge series.

[Pretas]

There's also Yanya Caballista, that bizarre cel-shaded skateboarding game they made for the PS2. While the game itself isn't too great, it's very notable for its unique control method, making use of a miniature board that clips onto the DualShock's analog sticks. This predated Katamari and EA's Skate series.

Looking into it, it seems that at least the third Touge game (the last one made by Cave) supports the NegCon. Definitely the best peripheral ever made for driving games that isn't a wheel.

[thetricker24]

by the way, to answer to the one who said "cave developper can't no more port game to PC", they officially announced support for XBOX ONE so... cave is not dead.

[Some-Mist]

by the way, to answer to the one who said "cave developper can't no more port game to PC", they officially announced support for XBOX ONE so... cave is not dead.

it's more or less the shooter division that I believe they're referring to. though nothing says that CAVE won't re-establish an arcade shooter division... I also wouldn't be surprised if they stick primarily to visual novels in the same vein as Instant Brain.

[Ghegs]

Looking into it, it seems that at least the third Touge game (the last one made by Cave) supports the NegCon. Definitely the best peripheral ever made for driving games that isn't a wheel.

The first and the third games do, the second doesn't for some odd reason. I wrote an article about the neGcon a while back, it's easily my favorite gaming peripheral.

Cave also did Touge 3 for PS2 (or at least their logo is displayed at the start, so they had some involvement in it) but it's not as good as Touge Max G.

[Despatche]

it's

a thread

hm.

STG developers are philanthropists and their games are not created for the purpose of making money nor do they employ mechanisms in arcade environments to maximize the extraction of coins from wallets. They are all made for modern gamers with youtube channels and the genre is art!

despite being sarcasm i totally and wholeheartedly agree with these statements

i am a lizard people <insert philosoraptor here>

[Pretas]

Cave also did Touge 3 for PS2 (or at least their logo is displayed at the start, so they had some involvement in it) but it's not as good as Touge Max G.

You are correct. I thought otherwise because Atlus is listed as the developer on some sites, but Internet Archive shows that Touge 3 appeared on Cave's site circa 2001.

There was another snowboarding game they made on PS2 that I forgot about, Snowboard Heaven. Cave doesn't get enough credit for being a more-than-competent developer of sports and driving sim games.

Also, someone needs to upload some proper footage of Snowboard Heaven to Youtube...the only video I can find of it is a Let's Play with Touhou yukkuris on Nico Nico.

[Doctor Butler]

Why steam? It would be better to release them on a disc.

Yes. A CAVE Anthology (like 4 or 5 games) on PS3 (a console that people actually own) could do reasonably well. Even the casual shit-game reviewers (Destructoid, Kotaku, Game Informer) would be hard pressed to not call it a bargain.

[Pretas]

Mamoru-kun, Under Defeat HD, and Ketsui all sold poorly on PS3 and failed to attract a wider crowd. It's not where the market is. How much more proof do you need that it's a bad idea for STG developers and fans to pin their hopes on the system, or any current Sony platform?

We've also seen that Moss has encountered major technical problems with porting their games to PS3, with Raiden IV OverKill lacking stick support and Caladrius Blaze being indefinitely delayed for quality reasons.

[Doctor Butler]

Mamoru-kun, Under Defeat HD, and Ketsui all sold poorly on PS3 and failed to attract a wider crowd. It's not where the market is. How much more proof do you need that it's a bad idea for STG developers and fans to pin their hopes on the system, or any current Sony platform?

We've also seen that Moss has encountered major technical problems with porting their games to PS3, with Raiden IV OverKill lacking stick support and Caladrius Blaze being indefinitely delayed for quality reasons.

Good point. Really, moreso than the importance of the PS3, I was trying to stress that having 5-games-in-1 would might be a stronger selling-point to mainstream game-reviewers, and the people who blindly accept their criticisms.

But to be honest, I think we're pretty fucked for now.

Off-point, but doesn't it seem like Steam has skewed the common-perception of cost v. value. The modern "gaming community" seems so entitled, and believes nothing but the shiniest, most linear 4-hour tech-demo is worth more than $5, as if smaller studios don't require money to make games and pay their staff.

[Some-Mist]

But to be honest, I think we're pretty fucked for now.

I'm not fucked regarding any of their releases. Neither are a lot of other users on this board.

I wanted to play CAVE games so badly that I bought a J360 and PS2 and the entire console backlog. I'm just now getting through the arcade pcbs... so I can pretty much play whatever they've released. if not on one of those 3 platforms.. then through MAME.

you guys just don't want it badly enough

[Squire Grooktook]

Whether it's viable for CAVE in particular to start porting games to PC, I would like to say that I think shmups in general have much greater potential to do well on PC's than they do on consoles.

It's been said a lot that Pc's are the dwelling place of the hardcore, and while that's not entirely accurate, it's somewhat true. Most fighting game players I've encountered are into pc gaming. Rts players are on pc's. Oldschool fps players on are on PC. And most of these people (in my experience) have a healthy respect for shmups and skill based gaming, even if they aren't actually hardcore shmup players. I think it's safe to say that most of these people wouldn't mind picking up "the original bullet hell" Dodonpachi (most of them have already played it on mame already) or "the hardest game ever" Mushihimesama-Futari if it showed up on Steam or some other popular digital distribution service for 15 bucks or so.

Even beyond those types, I find that PC gamers are a lot more experimental. A lot of people I see on PC's, even if they aren't "hardcore" players, are willing to take chances on games. I see a lot of people who wouldn't be into shmups picking up similarly minimalist and challenging games just for the hell of it, or based on word of mouth. I would chalk this up to lower prices than physical + easier to purchase + more convenient to load up on pc's.

And to top it all off, the shmups on Steam have done pretty well as far as I can tell. I think if someone like Qute Corp could get their games on world wide digital distribution, it could really make a splash. Don't get me wrong, shmups will always be niche, but I think at the moment they are a bit more niche than they have to be, because almost everything that's been released in the past ten years is import or pirate only. If your a fighting game player with a casual liking for shmups who would like to play a bit more, than your only real options are

A: dust off your old copy of Einhander

B: Make a massive commitment and buy a j360 along with 300+ dollars for imported games off play asia

Even for a lot of people who really like the genre, B just isn't an option unless they are seriously committed to the genre. It might be fine for you and me, but for players who like shmups even to the point of spending many hours on them and 1cc'ing, but don't have it as their top 3 genres, B just isn't viable.

[trap15]

Except really, almost every CAVE 360 port is region-free, the two most recent Triangle Service releases are region-free, everything (?) by Qute is region-free. So there is no excuse. Please stop begging.

[Some-Mist]

I think it's safe to say that most of these people wouldn't mind picking up "the original bullet hell" Dodonpachi (most of them have already played it on mame already) or "the hardest game ever" Mushihimesama-Futari if it showed up on Steam or some other popular digital distribution service for 15 bucks or so.

I'd say it's safe to say most of the people on here would buy it (other than people like me who are sick of the cave milkage).. but that doesn't amount to many sales. as for dodonpachi or mushi futari selling well on steam in general: do you really think it's safe to say? after seeing the estimated numbers for the popular and critically acclaimed (also arguably the most popular title in the genre) ikaruga on steam... I have my doubts about any shooter selling well for CAVE on steam.

for imported games off play asia

I would never recommend for anyone to import anything off of play-asia again. Granted, I've ordered and received a lot from P-A over the years. But after waiting 8-9 weeks for an item through usps (the site says in extreme situations orders can take 5-6 weeks at most) and having play-asia tell me to just wait it out...then having 3 of my orders cancelled on me a week+ after I ordered mainly because they can't keep their stocklist updated... I'm done with them.

Even for a lot of people who really like the genre, B just isn't an option unless they are seriously committed to the genre. It might be fine for you and me, but for players who like shmups even to the point of spending many hours on them and 1cc'ing, but don't have it as their top 3 genres, B just isn't viable.

lucky for us we get to see petitions with people complaining that these ultra niche games aren't on their platform of choice. I mean... the petitions make sense: cave should be breaking their back showing their support for western fans even though their titles sell shitty over here... instead of gamers breaking their back to show their support for cave in the west.

[kilauea]

I'm waiting on Saidaioujou and Futari off Playasia now. Said they were in stock when I ordered, then magically one wasn't. Been a month now for the one that was in stock, the other I was told today it had been processed. So that's boxing day entertainment sorted then...

I got akai katana and DDP res off Amazon and had them in 48 hours. Then bit my face off to spite my nose (or some shit) over their tax avoiding shenanigans. Me and my damn fecking principles

[Some-Mist]

don't get me wrong - I've received many items I've ordered without any hassle (like my J360), but I've been running into more and more issues the more I've been using them. Just two examples:

ordered the holy mountain blu-ray since they had it in stock on their website. It was hard to locate on amazon for a decent price but I found it on P-A and ordered it. A week later I get an e-mail stating they don't have a copy and have to cancel my order. I could've gotten it off ebay for $10 more but it sold by the time I received my cancellation e-mail. Now the copy is OOP and you can't find it for any less than $70-100.

my first encounter with order cancellation through P-A was with Demon's Souls (Asian Version) which I preordered a couple months before the release. I didn't receive an e-mail till the month of release (February) stating that they took too many preorders and have to cancel all the orders they couldn't fulfill. I was livid and shoulda stopped using them at that point. luckily I ordered it off a seller on ebay and received it that same month.

amiami, yesasia, and proxiess are my go-to now.

[Squire Grooktook]

I'd say it's safe to say most of the people on here would buy it (other than people like me who are sick of the cave milkage).. but that doesn't amount to many sales. as for dodonpachi or mushi futari selling well on steam in general: do you really think it's safe to say? after seeing the estimated numbers for the popular and critically acclaimed (also arguably the most popular title in the genre) ikaruga on steam... I have my doubts about any shooter selling well for CAVE on steam.

Did Ikaruga do bad? I thought it was selling relatively well. But I don't know, I'm not deeply acquainted with the numbers.

Except really, almost every CAVE 360 port is region-free, the two most recent Triangle Service releases are region-free, everything (?) by Qute is region-free. So there is no excuse. Please stop begging.

True, but my point is that a 360 + pricy imports + possibly j360 if you want certain titles is a heavy commitment for people who like the genre but aren't necessarily dedicated score players. This is why I personally think that digital distribution services like Steam and Desura getting games like Alltynex/Satazius/Ikaruga/Crimzon Clover are probably one of the best things to happen to the genre in recent memory. It's probably the first time since the ps1 era that a casual fan has a decent selection of quality games that can be conveniently and legally acquired in English at a reasonable price. I think that's pretty good for the genre, personally.

Note: I'm not begging myself, I own the games myself and a 360* I just personally think a greater emphasis on world wide digital distribution would be a good thing for the genre if it was possible. I also agree that a petition would probably do nothing.