Factory sealed games 20 years on: Teh Conspiracy?

[Skykid]

Not a rant about sealed game collecting as such, but more a query about the genuineness of factory seals on all these old games.

It seems like they're all over ebay. Everywhere I look, there are sealed Battle Garregas and Silverguns, Taromarus and ancient NES games. Something plainly isn't right with this picture.

Weigh up these facts:

- Sealed game collecting is a new phenomenon instigated partially by idiots and the VGA. Prior, what would be the purpose for anyone to keep something unplayed? This taking into account that even if left over factory seals existed, ebay Akiba flippers went nuts in the late 90s early 00s expediting as much as possible. I bought sealed stuff then, Ikaruga on DC for instance, and opened it straight away. Considering *mint* was the grail for collecting at that time, what stopped everyone else doing the same?

- Why is it all the desirable stuff turns up in seals, whereas the common average games less likely to be played are all open? Finding a sealed Silvergun is easy compared to Groove on Fight or Virtua Fighter etc. That makes no sense.

- The proliferation of ebay with sealed games seems to have tripled with the advent of the VGA. This is an incredible phenomenon considering the more time that elapses, the more likely seals will get broken - not the reverse where they suddenly all end up back in their wrappers...

So the question is, how high a chance do you think there is that sealed games are counterfeit? We joke about it all the time, but I'm serious: if Tonk can manufacture and sell someone a non-existent Neo cart to a near foolproof standard, how legitimately difficult would it be to produce identical transparent plastic wrap?

Given the profit incentive and the above facts, I believe there's argument that an enormous deception is occuring.

[BryanM]

"Joke"? We were dead serious about that. It's the perfect scam - these 'sperg lords can never observe the contents of what you sold them so why not rip them off; hell, you can argue where is the harm aside from being a douche that'd take advantage of the mentally ill in the eyes of Azathoth.

One should count themselves lucky that the majority of these plaques probably don't contain a CD-R with a MPG file of the seller touching themselves inside them.

[President_Obama]

an enormous deception is occurring.

Chuckle.

[Skykid]

One should count themselves lucky that the majority of these plaques probably don't contain a CD-R with a MPG file of the seller touching themselves inside them.

Ha ha.

Well I always considered it a half-joke then. But this morning I was thinking about volumes mainly, and the likelihood of so many 20+ year old objects surviving in shrink wrap.

IIRC Saturn and DC games have a simple tear strip, whereas PSX and Nintendo stuff have printed strips with the console/company logo etc. I have no idea about Y-folds and whatnot, but I'd assume recreating a PSX branded tearstrip must be really, really easy with the right equipment. Chinese people are so expert at counterfeiting I'd imagine commissioning a 1:1 tearstrip must be the simplest of requests - then it's just a case of feeding it into your wrapping machine.

I wonder how long it will go on for without anyone being exposed?

Thats the only thing that bothers me: all these years and no-one has ever reported opening/decasing something from the VGA etc and finding a copy of George Michael's last album where Taromaru was meant to be.

[quash]

Isn't re-sealing considered the same thing for games that came in cardboard boxes? I've heard that most factory shrink wrapping will actually deform cardboard boxes over time, so it's common practice to re-seal them a bit loose so that doesn't happen.

[TransatlanticFoe]

Thats the only thing that bothers me: all these years and no-one has ever reported opening/decasing something from the VGA etc and finding a copy of George Michael's last album where Taromaru was meant to be.

Because anyone daft enough to buy overpriced VGA-style graded sealed bullshit isn't ever going to open it. As nice an idea as replacing a cart with a vacuum packed giant turd and resealing it is, there's no payoff because chances are it'll never get opened.

If people want to get wet over something which is easily forged, let the idiots throw their money away. It's nice to get a brand spanking new old game, but what's more important is that the ruddy thing works. Hell, the way shops used to stock video games, you could buy something new and end up with a battered manual or damaged box. The quest for mint condition factory sealed games is a fallacy and more fool those who care.

Only problem is that it means there are games sitting there not being played, when there are people that want to play them but won't pay through their nose for a level of condition they don't care about and might be faked anyway!

[DrVenom]

It definitely started before VGA grading. I started buying some sealed games in 2003 and even back then Super Metroid was $400 and Radiant Silvergun was like $450 just to give a few examples.

There are several reasons why unplayed games have survived. Old store stock, warehouse finds, random private people having some laying around. You can also find thousands of old sealed VHS movies on eBay, do you think those are fake as well?

As for your rarity argument it seems you are attempting to cherry pick certain games to fit your argument. If you search for "virtua fighter saturn" on eBay and then choose "new" as the condition you will see there are in fact a lot of inexpensive sealed Virtua Fighter Saturn games on eBay (just not the first one).
Meanwhile there is only one Battle Garrega, two Radiant Silvergun and one Taromaru on eBay, and all but one are from the same seller (who happens to have a lot of other rare stuff anyway). These games can sit there forever if the price is too high.

Some games are just hard to find sealed for various reasons. Personally I was never able to find a sealed Panzer Dragoon (JP) and that was mostly 7-10 years ago. However I did find the other Saturn games I wanted both the expensive and inexpensive ones. By the way back when I was buying Saturn I would regularly come across sealed Groove on Fight. I don't know about the first Virtua Fighter as I don't care about it and it doesn't stand out as much when browsing eBay auctions so I wouldn't have noticed.

You say the proliferation has tripled but what are you basing that on? From the sounds of it you didn't have a finger on the pulse of sealed game collectiong before VGA. Even if it is true wouldn't it make sense that higher prices and interest would cause more games to surface? Doesn't mean there are more of them just that maybe more people want to cash in.

This scenario of mass deception that you are proposing would sound silly to anyone that knows anything about it really.

I have actually opened several sealed retro games over that last few years like Metroid II, Wario Land, Castlevania Adventure, Balloon Kid, Actraiser, Axelay, Kirby's Dreamcourse, Super Punch Out (two of them), Cotton 2, Burning Rangers and some N64 and Dreamcast games and they were in fact all brand new like I expected. Not a single George Michael CD.

Sure there must be reseals out there like there always has been. Whether or not some are good enough to have made it into VGA cases I don't know, I am not actually into graded games.

Most of my sealed games I got before it really exploded and most of them I got for less than $100 which didn't seem excessive whether I was going to open them or not considering the cost of a first party SNES/N64 game in my country was the equivalent of $100 back in the days. Third party games were often much more expensive, I actually paid like $140 for ultimate Mortal Kombat 3 on SNES back in the days, and that was for a non sealed copy that wasn't mint because it had been standing around in store. So $100 for a sealed Demon's Crest, $70 for a sealed Battletoads or $45 for a sealed Ninja Gaiden II wasn't anything special. I realize sealed games are more expensive now.

What I don't understand is why people are so butthurt about it (not just here), should have very little impact on you. Aren't there people hoarding Cave PCB's as well only for collecting purposes? That seems far worse considering that these games are much less accessible than most of the games that command high prices sealed.

[D]

If you bought a sealed game and some ebayjerk sealed it himself, but you don't know that, you (and the seller) will be perfectly happy nonetheless.

[xorthen]

I remember back in 1998 a local Target had shit loads of Super Metroids for $15.99 each on clearance. I bought one. I still think Metroid fanboys are the only reason the game has value at all because it is a common game. The same reason Mega Man games and other games have gotten retarded price spikes in the last few years. Hopefully this retro game trend dies off because right now it's a bad time to be a collector.

[Ed Oscuro]

I remember paying a shitton for a sealed Metroid II (Game Boy) in the mid-00s.

$40! Holy sheeet brah

I was high-rollin' there.

Actually I've got a fair number of sealed games still...I'm not buying any more unless they're cheap enough (you never know). Anything that's "cheap enough" for me pretty much rules out scammers. I greatly prefer like-new but opened, though.

[BIL]

I can verify at least one sealed Taromaru purchased in the last two years was ham sandwich-free and in pristine shape. In fact, the adorable sticker included within remains unused!

OTOH I got a sealed DC Ikaruga with a noticeable ding in the disc's outer edge, though it plays fine. And a sealed Leynos 2 that was this close to the disc falling off the spindle, fuuuck. But I file both under Living Dangerously: Gamer SEALs.

Haven't found any unwanted snacks yet, but then I usually go with mint/nearmint unless my handful of trusted purveyors don't have any in that shape. I've bought from some real fuckfaces over the years WRT to "minty" stuff. :[

[xorthen]

I bought a sealed Ikaruga I think years ago on this forum for $40. Iopened and sold it. I have a factory sealed Wind Waker Zelda and I hope it goes up in price. Also worked at a goodwill many years ago and an old lady brought a box of factory sealed NES games like Castlevania, RC PRO AM, Mario 3 and 2, Zelda II, and Excite bike, all with sealed shrink wrap and some had K-MART stickers on them. I couldn't buy them because store policy restricts employees from purchasing or setting aside. Needless to say, I was massively butt hurt.

[Fudoh]

I couldn't buy them because store policy restricts employees from purchasing or setting aside

But the profit would have easily been high enough to bribe whatever store manager you had standing by....

[Ed Oscuro]

Nah, call a bud and have him buy 'em. Don't let anybody know what you're up to

[xorthen]

Nah, call a bud and have him buy 'em. Don't let anybody know what you're up to

No local friends at the time. I was new to the area. I wish I knew who bought them because he was a lucky sob. They would keep all new items for mark up and then sell shit dirt cheap. The manager and the other women there didn't know jack shit for value. Those games sold immediately though because a day after I came back they were gone. They had a waiting policy for stuff like that because I tried to claim them and they were all,"We have a no employees policy for a week or a few days shelf time." I found some cool strategy guides while off work for a dollar. Resident Evil remake and Silent Hill 4. They also had a metroid ds bundle on the cheap. Tons of cheap games all the time in there.

[Skykid]

It definitely started before VGA grading. I started buying some sealed games in 2003 and even back then Super Metroid was $400 and Radiant Silvergun was like $450 just to give a few examples.

2003 you say? Sorry I don't believe it. I was hunting down all sorts of stuff at that point and never saw a market for sealed game collecting that would have pushed Super Metroid etc to $400+, especially a non-Japanese copy (western releases having value is a relatively new trend.) And even if they were priced at that, it wouldn't have been realistic for a sale.

Old store stock, warehouse finds, random private people having some laying around.

There are limits to how long these things survive. You're comparing globally released VHS tapes to Japanese only domestic releases with low print runs? Makes no sense.

Meanwhile there is only one Battle Garrega, two Radiant Silvergun and one Taromaru on eBay, and all but one are from the same seller (who happens to have a lot of other rare stuff anyway). These games can sit there forever if the price is too high.

Yes, as they should. There may only be one of each today, but my point is there are always sealed versions of the more desirable games cropping up. It's quite uncanny and very fortunate for the seller to have acquired those particular games and sat on them for X amount of years without selling them prior.

Some games are just hard to find sealed for various reasons. Personally I was never able to find a sealed Panzer Dragoon (JP)

I feel for you man. Hopefully you just got an open one that you can, you know, play and stuff.

By the way back when I was buying Saturn I would regularly come across sealed Groove on Fight.

What, in the cardboard box?

You say the proliferation has tripled but what are you basing that on?

Goof-offs stunning the internet world with mass idiocy. And a lot more sealed games than before.

From the sounds of it you didn't have a finger on the pulse of sealed game collectiong before VGA.

No, no I didn't! Still don't, and never will!

Even if it is true wouldn't it make sense that higher prices and interest would cause more games to surface? Doesn't mean there are more of them just that maybe more people want to cash in.

Bad logic. The answer to your question is no. But it would cause more counterfeiting to surface.

This scenario of mass deception that you are proposing would sound silly to anyone that knows anything about it really.

You are aware the lengths counterfeiters will go to for profit, right? You know a bunch of French dudes manufactured entire Metal Slug Neo AES carts and sold them successfully to various retailers in Akihabara for top dollar?

That's the tip of the iceberg. If you think reproducing an entire cart, manual, inlay, sticker etc, is difficult, can you imagine how simple a tear strip is?

If that breaks your heart every time you glance at all those unplayed jewel cases on your shelf, feel free to sell up.

Most of my sealed games I got before it really exploded

It's never really exploded. It's a niche in a niche for people with more money than brains. Most people aren't that stupid.

What I don't understand is why people are so butthurt about it (not just here), should have very little impact on you. Aren't there people hoarding Cave PCB's as well only for collecting purposes? That seems far worse considering that these games are much less accessible than most of the games that command high prices sealed.

Sealed game collector logic at its finest. Games in a collection that can be played versus games that can't. Nice.

[Ed Oscuro]

I don't know about the '03 dating for a Super Metroid at $400, but that's actually not all that far off base. By mid-decade, for sure, games like that were in the region.

And dude has a point...the petty bickering over what other people do with their stuff in a way that doesn't hurt us is kind of silly. There are lots of ways to play the games, and requiring "the real thing" is just as arbitrary a choice as deciding to keep a sealed game.

[Skykid]

There are lots of ways to play the games, and requiring "the real thing" is just as arbitrary a choice as deciding to keep a sealed game.

I disagree. Emulation doesn't validate a collector market based on cellophane or an object with no physical use.

The topic is less about that than the likelihood of counterfeiting shrink wrap though.

[Ed Oscuro]

Emulation doesn't validate a collector market based on cellophane or an object with no physical use.

It's conservation for historical purposes, same as any other collection. Or maybe it's just for speculative purposes. When did we have a vote on whether your access to cheap games trumps what other people do with their own stuff?

As that rough-and-tumble all-American hero put it so well:

[Skykid]

Emulation doesn't validate a collector market based on cellophane or an object with no physical use.

It's conservation for historical purposes, same as any other collection. Or maybe it's just for speculative purposes. When did we have a vote on whether your access to cheap games trumps what other people do with their own stuff?

Like I said, it's a discussion about counterfeiting plastic wrap and not another debate on SG collectors.

But as was discussed in such detailed and expressive terms in the ASGD thread, conservation for historical purposes is absolutely ridiculous if you can't open the box to see the contents. It's a null; a contradiction in terms. Can't think of a museum that wouldn't open an artefact for public display.

"It was okay. Just a bunch of boxes."

[Ed Oscuro]

conservation for historical purposes is absolutely ridiculous if you can't open the box to see the contents.

Not exactly: Same as any time capsule. Oh, you're that guy who pickets car museums, and at the Egyptian exhibition, demands they unwrap the mummies - you push your nose around under the skin, and even put a tongue into the marrow, don't you? Please notice you've shifted your emphasis from viewing "playing" as the good we seek to "conservation," and if you admit that much (as you should) then there is no problem here. At the same time - yes, "opening the box" is the point too. I hoped you would see that, but also further. I know Indy isn't the kind of guy who doesn't hesitate to use a priceless artifact in an emergency. Think of the sealed game hoarders as being like (or, at least, trying to be like) the knight in the cave. He just passes the chalice along. That's better than being an active force for destruction, surely.

That's the feeble dream: Let's hope the folks in the future will be amused to find exceptionally stale Twinkies inside them.

The other question is what makes you think there is a "proper way" to enjoy (or not!) some item, which critical assumption drips venomously but, paradoxically, dreadfully boringly and uselessly from all your posts on this subject. This idea of a "proper way" which you apparently hold is a very Catholic notion, except then you need a theory of what undergirds the Proper Way Of Whatever or else I will laugh at you attempting to enshrine your biases. The existence of sealed games is unfortunate in that it offers some a false hope, but reminding ourselves of the impermanence of things makes it clear that ultimately hoarding of physical objects cannot have much impact on us, if the actual format of the games survives and is available (flashcarts are a thing, after all, and even repros can be arranged). That seems to be what you're putting forward as the primary badness of sealed game collecting. Truly, only a ROM hoarder could really make a dent in things in this way. In this, I think the average sealed game hoarder is pretty blameless.

The real reason that sealed game collecting could be considered (at least by my reckoning) to be actively bad is that it could obscure the historical record or prevent games from being dumped. But neither seems to be a real-world problem of any importance - I suppose; we already live in an era where the professional plastic sleuths at Neo-Geo.com will happily throw anything into doubt if there are enough dimes at stake, and any evidence one way or another is happily questioned as criminally anomalous. From our perspective, it's just another enjoyable spectacle to sit back and watch, and once again it has no obvious impact on the enjoyment of games. As with my reply to Rob in the Analogue NT thread, it's easy to sling stones at what we don't like from a distance, while not really doing anything to solve the problem, or even demonstrate that one exists.

Putting sealed game collectors out as the primary force detrimental to the hobby is wrong-headed. No, the main problems are with copyright issues, or economics, and plain old entropy.

My main beef with sealed game collectors is, and has been for a very long time, when they forget to play games at all, or have some kind of meaningful experience with them that is more compelling and deep than would be their experience with a booklet full of coins or a stamp album, given that games are more complicated than those forms of collectible. It is not quite exactly the same experience to play a ROM, and look at the manual online, than it is to actually open the thing and feel it in your fingers, but if they want to deny that experience so somebody in the future might enjoy it instead, I don't see the problem. It's not as if you lose the main portion of a game experience by playing off a flashcart, or even emulating on a computer. I can't even rightly say "playing games" is what they need to do, because lately almost all of my attention with retrogaming has been taken up by attempts to learn and execute conservation of dying systems.

[dunpeal2064]

People will be "awe" as fuck over anything they pull out of a time capsule. They'll probably art-fap over sealed games too.

Its fine though, sealed game stuff doesn't stop anyone from playing anything. A sealed game just isn't a game anymore, its an art piece or whatever. Its useless as a game, as the value it would lose by "making it useful" to us is not worth the contents inside. Same as some old instrument in a museum, except that old instrument probably isn't emulated as well.

As for their validity, since I'm not in the market for sealed games I find it about as concerning as faked antiques or autographs, although admittedly much easier to fake. It still means very little to me though. Its been used mostly in a negative connotation, but "They will be happy no matter whats inside" is indeed true, and there is nothing wrong with that. There are probably people that LOVE their fake insert thing here, and that's fine by me

[DrVenom]

There are limits to how long these things survive. You're comparing globally released VHS tapes to Japanese only domestic releases with low print runs? Makes no sense.

No I was comparing them to sealed games in general.

You seem to be overly concerned (saw your other thread as well: Suicide Bullets: Anti Sealed Game Defence Force) and to draw a lot of conclusions about something you know almost nothing about. If you are so obsessed with sealed games maybe you should do some research so you know what you are talking about.

[Despatche]

yeah i wouldn't be surprised if most of this was fake.

somewhat related, all i ask for is that some copy be kept complete in good condition so we can scan and take pictures of materials. bonus points for getting a copy in a museum.

thing is, the people who sincerely collect for time capsule purposes are probably a grand total of one crazy that is probably also a hermit.

there is a proper way of enjoying something, but only for "manmade concepts" that were designed with something specific in mind and/or are commonly used a certain way. "natural concepts" don't really have anything except the latter, which is something that is subject to change at any time.

yes, collecting does hurt. it's slowly breeding a terrible mindset; there's already the side-effect of the assholes who keep literally undumped games and betas from everyone else, some of which end up rotted as a result. i'd really like to keep track of those types of things above all else.

[BIL]

somewhat related, all i ask for is that some copy be kept complete in good condition so we can scan and take pictures of materials.

Sounds good Patchy-kun! (・｀ω´・) I'll do the buying, collecting and playing and when I finally fall on the field of battle, I'll have arranged to have all my stuff scanned with images forwarded to we. edit: I don't deal with PAL trash and the like, though, so you will need assistance in that dept! Also you'll be waiting a while I still got things to do

[Skykid]

There are limits to how long these things survive. You're comparing globally released VHS tapes to Japanese only domestic releases with low print runs? Makes no sense.

No I was comparing them to sealed games in general.

You seem to be overly concerned (saw your other thread as well: Suicide Bullets: Anti Sealed Game Defence Force) and to draw a lot of conclusions about something you know almost nothing about. If you are so obsessed with sealed games maybe you should do some research so you know what you are talking about.

Suicide bullets thread bump was ill timed, and not by me.

I know everything I need to know about sealed games: they're pointless and idiotic. The purpose of this discussion, as reiterated for the umpteenth time, is to query the possibility of counterfeiting to dupe people already stupid enough to pay an awesome markup for sheer plastic wrap.

[kilauea]

There are definitely games been sealed up and sold as new. I only joined this forum today but quite surprised this wasn't already common knowledge. And its been going on for years - I was done over in 2001/2 and not bought sealed (if it cost me more) since.

I've no problem with collectors wanting sealed games though and while there is a demand there will be an increase in value. I do feel for anyone expecting them to be investments though, as they will lose their cash in the long run. Nobody will give a toss in 20 years time that a game is sealed. If it can't be played (in the way say a rare and expensive northern soul record can today), then it will have no intrinsic value. If someone is going to pay £500 for a rare 7inch record now, they damn well want to make sure it plays and listen to it (if only once). I don't see videogames being any different.

Buy 'em, play 'em.

1st post over. Flame away!

[xorthen]

Comparing a preserved mummy to a piece of plastic and silicon chips. I wonder how long it would take for a SNES cart to deteriorate. I know CD's data doesn't have a long shelf life but I have never owned a CD that stopped working.

[rancor]

1st post over. Flame away!

You're amongst friends here with that attitude.

[Ed Oscuro]

I do feel for anyone expecting them to be investments though, as they will lose their cash in the long run. Nobody will give a toss in 20 years time that a game is sealed. If it can't be played (in the way say a rare and expensive northern soul record can today), then it will have no intrinsic value.

"Intrinsic value" has a meaning in certain philosophical debates. We're talking about an arbitrary assignment of value to things, based on supply and demand for items affected by entropy. Whatever the thing is doesn't matter - so long as there's a market for it. Years ago, even when I argued against buying into the Kizuna Encounter madness as investment vehicles, people could just point towards the speculators flipping a profit after a few years to rebut me. It's hard to argue with that. Thank goodness for the Neo Geo crew, always ready to burn (other people's) cash and make buying a game the dramatic event of your life!

About 2001/2002 - that was about exactly the time I joined up at the Retrogaming Roundtable, and even then I think it was obvious that some games were making big money sealed. I also knew that I didn't want to jump into anything that was over my competence level - funny considering all the trouble I'm having now with old, used (and busted) stuff. Overall, though, I don't see how I stand to loose from the sealed games I do have. Ninja Five-O just isn't that common, and mine would present me with a great return even if I opened it immediately before selling.

I think one rule of thumb is this: Does the game already have a high value? I tended to like buying titles that were already rare and sought-after to begin with. Having them sealed might add to the value dramatically, but if they're opened the value won't collapse. Even if my Ninja Five-O was an empty box, I am sure I'd still make a huge profit off selling that.

Even more simply, my rule of thumb has always been "don't buy stuff you don't care about." When I buy stuff that I care about, I tend to do well (and also have something nice to play). When I buy stuff I don't care about, I waste my money. And most of the times I've wasted money, it's been because I bought stuff I didn't care about. I missed the chances to buy some stuff cheaply (i.e., Mega Man games) but I still don't really care about them. I'm not in this to become a hoarder, after all.

(Why can't I find a decent image of Marina Liteyears shaking something? Jeez!)

there is a proper way of enjoying something, but only for "manmade concepts"

Again, very Catholic. Who gets to decide? God? Shiggy "please don't draw pictures of mario and bowser kissing" Miyamoto? The Government of Experts?

I can watch some video of an idiot supercar owner trashing his clutch, and what I don't think is "that man* has not found the proper way to enjoy his automotive find!" Rather I think "hope you can take out another mortgage, bub!"

*It's always a man.

Comparing a preserved mummy to a piece of plastic and silicon chips.

For the lulz.

I wonder how long it would take for a SNES cart to deteriorate. I know CD's data doesn't have a long shelf life but I have never owned a CD that stopped working.

The CD rot thing seems to be mostly a fable. Heck, old floppies actually have a pretty good lifespan - if you aren't constantly using them.

The real story here is that we're talking about the physical instances of things. The actual data needed to make something work is a totally different story. As long as there's enough energy to do it, we should be able to preserve and play games indefinitely.