Fudoh's ode to old display technology

[brittonal]

I just managed to get my hands on a Sony PVM204MU off craigslist and I have a couple of questions if someone could help me out please.

1. In 16:9 mode, I have a Red, Green and Blue line at the top of the screen. I'm assuming this is a flaw and can be fixed?

2. What is the best way to calibrate this thing as I will be using RGB with my Playstation and JVC X'eye?

3. Does this unit have an hours counter by chance? The guy I purchased from claimed he was the only owner and that it only has about 100 hours on it. From the looks of the exterior, its practically brand new looking.

I'm new here and trying to find some help and good information.

Thanks!

[Fudoh]

@Traveller: yes, clock phase and frequency can affect the image stability, although on most CRTs you'll have a hard time seeing any differences. You need a test pattern with a vertical needle stripe pattern to POSSIBLY see the differences.

[Traveller]

Thanks Fudoh. I gathered as much, I just wanted to find out what those settings should roughly be set to. Good to know that as long as it looks fine theres no problem.

Also @ brittonal, I have yet to find any hint of an hour count, I could be wrong but I think they may not have one.

[Yamato]

Wow, I'm very happy now!

Yesterday I found a BVM 20F1E in a local broadcast production company. As they couldn't use it anymore due to their switch to HD displays, I took the chance to buy it. The unit is in an absolute awesome condition. It just has 20.000 hours on it and basically looks like new. It comes with the control unit and the additional 21N board (which supports composite video obviously). Man is this thing heavy. What a beast!

As I don't have a Scart-BNC-breakout cable yet I could only test an unmodded PAL NES and Famicom AV via composite. The seller was so nice to give me a BNC-RCA adapter as well.

You might think that composite looks like shit, but actually it looked quite a lot better that on my old Sony Trinitron consumer TV. In fact so much better that it had quite an RGB feel to it. So I'm really looking forward to see how breathtaking an actual RGB signal will be

One thing I noticed is that you somehow get different save slots for the ALIGNMENT setting. When you push the underscan button on the control unit and go into the alignment menue back again the numbers changed. That might be obvious, but I think this can be a great feature especially for gamers who happen to own quite a lot PAL games (like me), because this way you can have a 2nd slot where you stretch the picture vertically. Then you can just push one button and you have a full size picture with no PAL borders at the top/bottom

I noticed that you also get different ALIGNMENT slots depending on the signal type you feed in. At first I thought that the alignment is set globally but when I connected by unmodded NTSC Famicom AV I got a different set of alignment settings again. So you have a lot possibilities to fine tune the picture size, vertical and horizontal shift etc. for each system.

I wonder if this will be the same with RGB connected consoles. Can't wait to get the BNC breakout cable!

Again one observation: The internal test pictures take the specific settings from the channel which was set before. For example, when I play my PAL NES on CH1 with certain settings and then go to CH95 for the test pattern, then I see the test pattern with all the settings from CH1 (including ALIGNMENT!). If I play the NTSC Famicom on CH2 with different settings and than go to CH95, the I have the test pattern with that settings as you already guessed. Quite nice

[Fudoh]

One thing I noticed is that you somehow get different save slots for the ALIGNMENT setting.

very well known fact and mentioned several times in this thread. You actually get four slots (overscan 4:3 and 16:9, underscan 4:3 and 16:9). You can totally disregard their notation and just use them for whatever you like. If you combine them with channels (each channel remembers it's alignment slot) you usually have enough scope to cover all your sources.

[Yamato]

One thing I noticed is that you somehow get different save slots for the ALIGNMENT setting.

very well know fact and mentioned several times in this thread. You actually get four slots (overscan 4:3 and 16:9, underscan 4:3 and 16:9). You can totally disregard their notation and just use them for whatever you like. If you combine them with channels (each channel remembers it's alignment slot) you usually have enough scope to cover all your sources.

Ok, must have missed the information when I read though some pages of the thread, sorry.

But in addition, I also got different slots depending on if I fed in a PAL or NTSC source (PAL NES vs NTSC Famicom). Of course both set to overscan 4:3 before! Again, I could only test composite yet. Maybe this wasn't mentioned before.

That the test pictures automatically take over the previous channel settings is also good to know. They also show the previous channel's name in the corner

[Taiyaki]

To all those who have had problem of bulging on screen I have found the solution!

If you go into the set up and then extend menu you can can access the factory reset all sections. After resetting DEFLECTION my screen was good as new. With good geometry and convergence calibrations the screen is close to perfect. It's incredible.


By the way what color settings does everyone use? Standard? D65? AUX?

[Fudoh]

After resetting DEFLECTION my screen was good as new

nice find and good to know!

Color temp: D65.

[Jademalo]

To all those who have had problem of bulging on screen I have found the solution!

If you go into the set up and then extend menu you can can access the factory reset all sections. After resetting DEFLECTION my screen was good as new. With good geometry and convergence calibrations the screen is close to perfect. It's incredible.


By the way what color settings does everyone use? Standard? D65? AUX?

How do I set that? I've only got STD, Col1, Col2 and something channel.

Also, I did a reset of the deflection and it didn't sort mine... I might have to have another attempt.

[Taiyaki]

Fudoh, thanks.

Jademalo, look in the maintenance area one of the first two boards has a color temperature setting and in there you have more choices.

The deflection reset should have dramatically reduced your problem, it improved mine by about 70% based on actual measurements in cm (on a large square crosshatch). Used to be very distracting now it's more like noticeable with some effort.

[Jademalo]

Fudoh, thanks.

Jademalo, look in the maintenance area one of the first two boards has a color temperature setting and in there you have more choices.

The deflection reset should have dramatically reduced your problem, it improved mine by about 70% based on actual measurements in cm (on a large square crosshatch). Used to be very distracting now it's more like noticeable with some effort.

Thanks, I had missed that menu, that might sort out my horrible colour issue with YUV.
I'll try a deflector board reset later, I'm fairly sure I reset everything to default when I was trying the other night though.

[Hatirus]

Hello, I've been reading all the posts and I decided I'd join this forum (mainly because of this thread), since I'm interested in retrogaming and shmups.

Thanks for the post, Fudoh. I'm looking for a PDP V402 aswell, but unfortunately I live in Brazil, so shipping one might be pricey, but I'm willing to do that if I have the chance to find one of these pdp.

But here's my contributon to the post - Since 2012, Samsung launched some ED Plasmas TV's here in Brazil, I did see 3 different models:

A 43 inch plasma with 852x480 res (which I did buy recently)

A 51 inch plasma with 1024x480 res

A 51 inch plasma with 1024x768 res

I can take photos of mine 43 inch plasma, but I don't know if the photos will do justice - as far as I can tell, Wii, Xbox, Dreamcast and PS2 look awesome on my plasma. But here's the links in some brazilian stores (keep in mind the sites are in portuguese)

43 inch (852x480): http://www.magazineluiza.com.br/tv-plas ... 3/et/dpla/

51 inch (1024x480): http://www.magazineluiza.com.br/tv-plas ... 5/et/dpla/

51 inch (1024x768) is out of stock

cheers

[Jademalo]

Just did the Deflector board reset, didn't solve my problem. I'm actually curious now if it's something spesifically to do with the Wii, as I can't seem to notice it through my Mega Drive... I haven't got an Everdrive to test the 240p suite on there though to make sure.

On another note, the STMPE or whatever bars that are in the Wii test version of the 240p suite finally worked! I was able to get the bars spot on in terms of configuration by using D whatever as well, thanks for telling me about that hidden one!

I do have to say though, man "accurate" colours are muted.

[Yamato]

If you go into the set up and then extend menu you can can access the factory reset all sections. After resetting DEFLECTION my screen was good as new. With good geometry and convergence calibrations the screen is close to perfect. It's incredible.

By the way what color settings does everyone use? Standard? D65? AUX?

Standard (which in fact should equal D65 on the BVM-20F1E according to the manual)

BTW I performed the factory reset too after I got my BVM. To be sure I took photographs of every setting before I started the factory reset procedure. The guy from the production company told me that they tweaked the settings in the past when they were still using the monitor, although they didn't use a color probe (they just tweaked the color by comparing the BVM to their reference hardware). After doing the factory reset I can say that they did just a few minor changes. Nothing dramatical. And you have to bear in mind that the settings should depend on the source too. So that's why I just wanted to get a "fresh" start up with a factory reseted unit

Regarding the implemented test patters, the picture is really close to perfect after the factory reset. At least on my unit. But you still have to fine tune the picture source wise (brightness, chroma, contrast, screen position, size etc.).

[Jademalo]

When I reset my deflection board to default the image was wildly off to the right, I had to move it over substantially.

[Yamato]

When I reset my deflection board to default the image was wildly off to the right, I had to move it over substantially.

Regarding the implemented test patters (CH91-99) or specific consoles?

When you use the test patterns on the BVM-20F1E (don't know if it's the case with other models too) you really have to mind that the test patterns seem take over the previous channel's specific settings, as I've written yesterday. I guess that's why they also show the previous channel's name (if you gave them a name) in the corner.

So if you want to see a test pattern with your factory reseted settings, you have to jump to a "non-modified" channel right before you type in the desired test pattern channel number. In your case horizontal shift should not be modified then.

For example: My Famicom's AV composite picture is way off to the left, so I have to modify the channel's settings to get it centered again (horizontal shift to the right side). Let's say I use my Famicom AV on CH1 named "Famicom". If I jump directly from CH1 to CH95 than the test grid channel will show "Famicom" at the top and the picture will be too far on the right side, because it takes over the previous channel's settings.

You can you use this feature to fine tune the settings for your specific consoles, I guess.

Again, this is just my initial observations

[Fudoh]

You're having fun with your BVM, don't you ?

[Jademalo]

I most certainly am, lol. Can't wait for my cache of goodies from across the pond =p

[Yamato]

You're having fun with your BVM, don't you ?

Quite a lot. It's like getting a new toy on christmas eve

It was a bit complicated when I turned on the unit for the first time, but after some practice and reading the manual / this thread, it's not a problem at all. Your review was a great help, thanks for that.

As you know I have a Sony Bravia / XRGB Combo too and like it very much, but I'm really more into CRT qualities for quite a while now. That's because I got more and more sensitive to input lag (when playing classic games) and also motion blur. I still own a fairly good Trinitron Wega consumer TV (FX30D), but the BVM is in fact so much better. Also the smaller 20 inch screen size is not a problem, as I was a bit concerned before I tried the BVM. It fits classic games quite well

[Taiyaki]

Just did the Deflector board reset, didn't solve my problem. I'm actually curious now if it's something spesifically to do with the Wii, as I can't seem to notice it through my Mega Drive... I haven't got an Everdrive to test the 240p suite on there though to make sure.

If you have Landstalker or Light Crusader be sure to try them, they're among the worst offenders when it comes to narrow vertical lines as going diagonally makes things warp more.

On the other hands on at least half my games I cannot notice the problem at all ever since doing the deflector board reset.

What is your problem when on a cross hatch? Is it vertical lines being narrow (even ever so slight, like 1mm off can affect the picture) or is it with the horizontal lines bending?

[Jademalo]

Just did the Deflector board reset, didn't solve my problem. I'm actually curious now if it's something spesifically to do with the Wii, as I can't seem to notice it through my Mega Drive... I haven't got an Everdrive to test the 240p suite on there though to make sure.

If you have Landstalker or Light Crusader be sure to try them, they're among the worst offenders when it comes to narrow vertical lines as going diagonally makes things warp more.

On the other hands on at least half my games I cannot notice the problem at all ever since doing the deflector board reset.

What is your problem when on a cross hatch? Is it vertical lines being narrow (even ever so slight, like 1mm off can affect the picture) or is it with the horizontal lines bending?

Static, I don't seem to notice anything, which is the strange bit. However, under motion, everything bows slightly, as if there was a pencil under a peice of paper. Whats strange is that it's apparent in the 240p test suite patterns as well as ALTTP, but it's not noticible when playing an actual sonic game on my Mega Drive...

[Taiyaki]

Static, I don't seem to notice anything, which is the strange bit. However, under motion, everything bows slightly, as if there was a pencil under a peice of paper. Whats strange is that it's apparent in the 240p test suite patterns as well as ALTTP, but it's not noticible when playing an actual sonic game on my Mega Drive...

So that's more than likely the same problem as mine. On a crosshatch everything appears perfect, when playing Sonic everything is perfect, with circle tests everything is still perfect. I thought I was going crazy because based on tests alone you wouldn't believe anything is off. The problem is that actually the vertical lines in some part of the screen are off by the smallest ammount. When things are in motion especially moving diagonally you can see warping. This is why Light Crusader or Landstalker are most noticeable due to the isometric 3d view. Probably these games are among the best to actually test geometry with (not in helping setting it up though).

In my experience the deflection reset improved it a lot, previously even flat 2d scrolling like Donkey Kong or Wonder Boy were giving me a headache and now it's barely noticeable in those games.

[Ed Oscuro]

Trinitron Wega consumer TV (FX30D)

This isn't important, but I like to look at different TV specs. FX30D has elements of a real model number, but doesn't appear to be one. If you could take another look at that I'd be grateful

[Yamato]

FX30D has elements of a real model number, but doesn't appear to be one. If you could take another look at that I'd be grateful

Sure: It was KV-29FX30E. I was indeed wrong about the "D"

[Artemio]

Static, I don't seem to notice anything, which is the strange bit. However, under motion, everything bows slightly, as if there was a pencil under a peice of paper. Whats strange is that it's apparent in the 240p test suite patterns as well as ALTTP, but it's not noticible when playing an actual sonic game on my Mega Drive...

So that's more than likely the same problem as mine. On a crosshatch everything appears perfect, when playing Sonic everything is perfect, with circle tests everything is still perfect. I thought I was going crazy because based on tests alone you wouldn't believe anything is off. The problem is that actually the vertical lines in some part of the screen are off by the smallest ammount. When things are in motion especially moving diagonally you can see warping. This is why Light Crusader or Landstalker are most noticeable due to the isometric 3d view. Probably these games are among the best to actually test geometry with (not in helping setting it up though).

In my experience the deflection reset improved it a lot, previously even flat 2d scrolling like Donkey Kong or Wonder Boy were giving me a headache and now it's barely noticeable in those games.

The good thing about the suite is that we can make interactive patterns. I guess this doesn't show in the grid scroll test when moving diagonally, neither in the horizontal stripes pattern, when selecting the vertical stripes?

If they don't show in either, I can modify the suite to help with either a new pattern with movement at adjustable speed, or modifications to these tests.

Let me know if I can help.

[Jademalo]

It shows for me in the scrolling grid, but is imperceivable when it's stationary. It's also visible in the sonic scrolling test, but not when actually playing sonic itsself. That's why im wondering whether or not its the feed from my Wii.

I've had a couple of other oddities with the Wii, like the bottom two lines having a bit of disturbance and the everybody votes channel causing weird sync issues on the menu. One thing that I did notice though, the native app is MUCH sharper with my cables than the emulated genesis one. No idea why, but it looks so much better.

Thanks for the offer though, I'll get back to you if theres anything that I can think of that would help me diagnose.

[Taiyaki]

Artemio, I'm quite sure they do show in those, thanks for checking.

The thing with this problem is that it's hard to describe accurately (does not show in pictures) and does not appear to be fixable with the service menu. I think Jademalo described it best saying it's like having a pen under the screen creating a bulging picture in a specific part. Mine is off center left from mid to bottom accross about 10% of the screen. It's for the most part only noticeable in 2D games and most noticeable in 2D isometric and some rpg's (like Phantasy Star IV). When playing Phantasy Star IV I swear you could get a headache when roaming to the left. Yet playing Shining Force II it's hard to spot even when I'm trying.

Not to be confused with the previous problem which was expanding on the extreme edge of the screen, which was fixed with a deflection reset, so in the future for those who come here for a fix for that problem please try the delction reset.


EDIT:

I have found a page where someone else has encountered what appears to be the same problem, which he refers to as "speed bumps".

http://www.assemblergames.com/forums/sh ... y-patience

In message 14 one user says that replacing the electrolytic capacitors should fix this problem. Does this sound reasonable to any tech knowledgeable people here

We may be onto a fix but as I'm no expert if that doesn't sound likely I'd rather not mess with it.

[Jademalo]

I've talked to Phil about that being a possibility, apparently he said that the swap is extremely difficult and involved, but possible.

If the swap is needed to be done on one of the boards though, I may have an idea. Either it would be possible to get someone to repair it, or we could attempt to use another board if it was to appear on ebay or somewhere similar.

I'm curious if anyone has done any research into it, if it works it may extend the life substantially.

[Taiyaki]

Who is Phil may I ask?

You mean swapping the electrolytic caps? What part is involved, does one have to watch out for something in particular when doing this?

Yes I thought about it too, one could get a repair person to come in and do it but that would cost somewhere between $80 and $150 based on what I've found (if you live in a city). Certainly worth it if it can extend the life of the monitor and fix the "speed bump" issue.

[Jademalo]

philexile, lovely bloke who posts on these forums a bit. I was talking to him and he said he's swapped out the BC(?) board before in an attempt to fix something, and apparently it worked well.

Don't ask me, I know nothing about it. I simply remember it being mentioned in passing, he said he had talked to a friend who used to repair these who said that could be the cause.
To be perfectly honest, ~$100 dollars for repair isn't too bad if it would definitely sort it. I haven't got that to throw at it though, and the problem isn't too big of an issue at present. If it gets worse in the future it's always a possibility.