Shmups for newcomers

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Squire Grooktook
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Re: Shmups for newcomers

Post by Squire Grooktook »

dunpeal2064 wrote:Playing a shmup blind is more like two people that have no idea how fighters work just flailing at each other. If they are worried about blocking overheads, they have probably practiced.
Errr, maybe not blind. I meant more like "not extensively practiced" or "more casually played".

That being said, the few times I've watched decent blind playthroughs of shmups, it was far more entertaining and skillfull than beginner level fighting game gameplay. For shmups at least movement mechanics are somewhat universal. With fighters, every button press can be hard countered so not knowing what button does what makes them more or less unplayable.
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dunpeal2064
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Re: Shmups for newcomers

Post by dunpeal2064 »

It depends on the game. Watching someone blind play Futari Ultra would probably be a pretty short and boring affair. It is fun to see someone run a full circle around the screen and magically not get hit though.

Blind (Or not well practiced) shmup play is a short-term thing anyways, unless the player somehow doesn't learn anything from each run. You practice the game no matter what. Stuff like save states and stage select just make that practice infinitely more efficient.

It doesn't have to be "Oh I gotta memo this entire game", but if the stage 4 boss kills you with the same attack 5 runs in a row... why not just load him up and try some things out? The games are hard enough even with the most efficient practice methods.

Then again, if you aren't in any hurry to get good, no harm in taking your time with the game. If you enjoy it more that way, of course you should play that way. I think everyone should at least try it though, or else how do you know that blind play is more fun? (And by try it, I mean at least full chain st2 in DDP or something, not just a single boss fight that takes like 3 minutes to practice). You might be surprised at how addicting practice can get. I find it more thrilling than the actual runs, just as I find practicing individual parts of a song more thrilling than playing the song out once I have it down (Or flailing through it but refusing to stop and correct my mistakes until the next playthrough of the song).
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mastermx
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Re: Shmups for newcomers

Post by mastermx »

When I first started I was a strict 1 credit runner. No credit feeding, no stage select, no savestates. Over time I have learned to embrace practice modes and save states, and think it is completely illogical to ignore the efficiency of this kind of practice. Let me give some of you an example of no save state practice that drove me insane. That was DDP DOJ. I would play DOJ as if I owned the PCB, I would never credit feed, and I would never stage select, each run began from the beginning.

It took plenty of time, and plenty of runs, but I finally was able to reach stage 3 with some consistency, and found myself praying for savestates/stageselect. Because there were certain patterns that would always catch me off guard, ones that I needed to practice, never the less, I persevered. Eventually I was able to make it to stage 4, and the concept of "hey go right back to the beginning if you want to see and practice the hard part" was driving me crazy. I was already able to get through stages 1-2 with complete consistency, it felt more like a chore. At the time I was also playing Gradius 3 with no stage select or save state or credit feeding philosophy, but then again, Gradius 3 even with credit feeding will destroy you because of the semi-impossible recoveries.

When Ikaruga came out for steam, and I wanted to 1cc it, I honestly couldnt have done that without stage select. I mean just imagine having to go through stages 1-4 ever single time just to practice the stage 4 patterns. I would have dropped the game like a brick. In fact I wish they would have also added the GC practice modes to the steam port such as choosing exactly which part of the stage to practice and also the slow motion mode. Anyway, these are games, whose primary objective is to be fun. I enjoy practicing parts of the game, if you don't you dont have to do it.

In regards to the fighting game metaphor. I have hundreds of hours logged into SF4, in all of it's iterations. I have friends who are very good at the game. Savestates and other forms of practice is akin to training mode in fighting games. training mode is not availible in pcb or arcade fighters. IMO all the best players have spent some extensive time in training mode. They do so to familiarize themselves with BnB combos and also familiarize themselves with the hitboxes/options selects/resets etc... (unless you're daigo or the other japanese players who basically spent a large part of their lives actually living in an arcade) They perfect everything in training mode, and then practice on a real opponent, and the game changes, it becomes about whether you can execute what you've practiced in a high stress situation. The same could be said for shmups. Clearing ikaruga stage 4 whether i practiced it or not, was very thrilling during my 1cc run. Even if I'd done it many times before, it was always thrilling. I think practice modes add to it.

TL;DR
save state and stage select is more efficient. Do what feels fun, this is a GAME at the end of the day.

To OP:
There are some shmups conventions that are universal. Play what you love, and perfect it. You will learn things like tap dodging and other shmup skills that are not unique to one game. Also not all skills are universal, for a beginner getting better at cave doesnt mean one will do well in old school shooters, nor does it mean Psykyo/raizing/(insert other dev here) will be a walk in the park. I would even go further to say that practicing one shmup means you will be a master of that one shmup. Overall skill in this genre will come naturally, there's no point of thinking about it too early, just have fun ;)
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JWS
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Re: Shmups for newcomers

Post by JWS »

I'm new too.

Play whatever interests you. You'll be playing it for a long time. There are plenty of games you can get a cheap clear on but you might not enjoy the experience as much. This is a personal journey that you're embarking on, play what you like, how you like and with what you like.

Enjoy.
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xorthen
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Re: Shmups for newcomers

Post by xorthen »

The original Gradius on NES It's the only shmup I have 1cc'd successfully. lol :o
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Blinge
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Re: Shmups for newcomers

Post by Blinge »

xorthen wrote:It's the only shmup I have 1cc'd successfully yet
^ Fixd
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LordHypnos
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Re: Shmups for newcomers

Post by LordHypnos »

Squire Grooktook wrote: That being said, the few times I've watched decent blind playthroughs of shmups, it was far more entertaining and skillfull than beginner level fighting game gameplay. For shmups at least movement mechanics are somewhat universal. With fighters, every button press can be hard countered so not knowing what button does what makes them more or less unplayable.
I kinda agree with this. Obviously you're gonna die stupidly a few times if you're playing blind, but if you are good at assessing where to bomb, you can make it pretty decently far in a shmup blind.
Some shmups even have random modes / endless modes that you only can play blind, and really good players can make it real freakin' far. Check out the scoreboard for noiz2sa for an example. Some people making it to like the 50th "stage" and shit. Probably not the hardest game, but I think it's pretty random in terms of enemy placement and bullet patterns.

Not saying that save state practice is bad, or anything, just that the comparison to people playing a new fighting game for the first time is pretty off from shmups.
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Magma Dragoon
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Re: Shmups for newcomers

Post by Magma Dragoon »

Battle Bakraid on the Normal Mode and Shikigami no Shiro II are very good to learn grazing on enemy bullets. I also like to practice on Darius Gaiden (I usually go A-B-D-G-L-Q-V, to avoid the toughest bosses).

Heck, I write a lot about shmups and I still suck at them (at least I'm better than my friends).
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nasty_wolverine
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Re: Shmups for newcomers

Post by nasty_wolverine »

batsugun special, you can probably get a 1 all under 2 hours tops...
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Illyrian
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Re: Shmups for newcomers

Post by Illyrian »

nasty_wolverine wrote:batsugun special, you can probably get a 1 all under 2 hours tops...
This! It's the only game I've no missed and it literally took like 15 credits or less.
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nasty_wolverine
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Re: Shmups for newcomers

Post by nasty_wolverine »

Illyrian wrote:
nasty_wolverine wrote:batsugun special, you can probably get a 1 all under 2 hours tops...
This! It's the only game I've no missed and it literally took like 15 credits or less.
you should edit your sig and add it as 0.5 or something... :D
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Eithrial
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Re: Shmups for newcomers

Post by Eithrial »

What about android games? Is it worth spending money?
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Despatche
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Re: Shmups for newcomers

Post by Despatche »

no eithrial

...oh hey another of these threads

dodonpachi daioujou black label

i'm really not trolling with these, giving beginners easy games doesn't "teach them basics", it just prevents them from ever associating with "hard" games. beginners need to learn the basics from games that will actually teach these things
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Patashu
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Re: Shmups for newcomers

Post by Patashu »

Eithrial wrote:What about android games? Is it worth spending money?
IMO yes, keep in mind that you're getting a different 'experience' in that having touch controls instead of analog controls makes dodging feel a lot different (a lot of patterns will be 'easier' - but - some will be 'harder'!) but you're still training a similar skillset and having the same kind of fun.

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=43212 <-- Use this list, and try the lite version/watch footage of it if there isn't one before buying.
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