Shmups for newcomers

[chempop]

Using save-states is like being a racer and practicing crossing the finish line over and over... then when it's time to race you crash horribly on the first lap.

Going for a world record, yes I understand why they are important. BEING A NEWCOMER to the genre, pleeease.

[ACSeraph]

I'm pretty sure if I had tried to learn Darius II without save states it would have turned me into a serial killer.

Plus wouldn't it be depressing to say "my first 1cc was Otomedius"?

Is it more depressing to say I have yet to 1CC it?

I'd wager that's more because of apathy than lack of ability

[LordHypnos]

I think it would be perfectly understandable if someone's first 1cc was something easy. Maybe not Otomedius. I've heard that game is kinda bad, but like BWR+ or Touhou. Both great games (or game series in the case of Touhou), and yet they have accessible difficulty curves. Also, they should definitely do the trick of teaching you the fundamentals of bullet hell games. No shame in having BWR+ as your first 1cc, I wouldn't say.

[Kollision]

Going for a world record, yes I understand why they are important. BEING A NEWCOMER to the genre, pleeease.

As strange as it might seem, I can relate to that.

When I started I had no idea of savestates at all.
I cleared many games without them... by brute force, continuing and with stage select practice where allowed.

and then I got spoiled
but hey there are times where refraining to use savestates could lead to months or years playing the same game for the 1CC alone

[Patashu]

You're not impressing anyone with your perseverance, only hurting yourself.

So, if you play games that don't have savestates, you are some kind of masochist or you are playing the wrong games or something like that?

The same game + savestates would be easier to learn.
This doesn't mean that the game is automatically horrible of course. Some games are designed around playing them linearly/continuously being the most fun way to play them. Not all games are even 'skill games'.
Then there's things like:
-Games where the challenges are homogenous enough that 'practice' is just finding more of it to do.
-Games where every kind of challenge is so unique that the concept of practice doesn't even make sense (a puzzle game for example)
And of course, not everyone plays games for the same reason - it may be that your goal is not to become as good as possible as fast as possible at X, in which case you wouldn't want savestates even if they existed.
But if you can choose between savestates and no savestates for a game or similar enough games and your goal is 'get good now' and you choose 'no savestates', you're being unnecessarily hard on yourself.

Using save-states is like being a racer and practicing crossing the finish line over and over... then when it's time to race you crash horribly on the first lap.

Going for a world record, yes I understand why they are important. BEING A NEWCOMER to the genre, pleeease.

Maybe you would have a point if you were practicing for something you only had one shot at (for example a tournament or liveplay) and neglected to do full game consistency training. But this is not the case with 1CC attempts - Let's say you've been practicing stage 5 hard recently, you decide to go for a 1CC attempt and die on stage 1. Oops. Except you can just start again, so it doesn't matter.
Speedrunners (the good ones anyway), before starting a run, practice every hard trick in the run until they feel comfortable with it before starting. The alternative would be to breeze through until hard trick 1 - oops, I forgot how it works, but now I remember. Start over, breeze through until hard trick 2 - oops. Etc.
If you like, you can think of savestate use as being how you practice the end game and 1CC attempts as being how you practice the early game/consistency training, and if you do the former then the latter your practice is now holistic.

Btw -

Many home ports of Cave shmups have a 'level select' to start from any stage you like - for practice.
Would you be happy if you could also start before a midboss, after a midboss and before a boss? I would, for every Cave shmup I play!
Would you be happy if the level select didn't exist, if the only way to practice was to play from the start until you got to the part you were interested in?
Anyway - savestates is just the logical conclusion of that. Divide the down as fine as you like so you can hone any one part you want to. And it's why emulators are so awesome.
And yea, a lot of people became amazing with no savestates, just with PCB. But if they had savestates as well, they would be even greater in the same amount of time, which is mindblowing to think about.

[chempop]

A well thought out response, I'll give you that.

Arcade games are designed where you have to survive X before you can attempt Y. It is why the final stages and patterns of a game are most exciting and intense, because they are not only the most difficult, but also because you have attempted them the least amount of times. I'd hate to take that excitement away from a new shmup player reaching the final pattern on a boss for the first time. It is the best the genre has to offer, those moments where you have to rely on your instinct and skill in order to clear a game, not because you practiced the final patterns for 20 minutes like a pussy.

[ACSeraph]

...not because you practiced the final patterns for 20 minutes like a pussy.

Since we are going this route...

[Master O]

I am quite new to shmup genre and currently Im playing a lot of DoDonPachi Dai-Ou-Jou, but it's hard and really challenging, so sometimes I need to rest and play something less demanding. Could you suggest something which would be good for newcomer but not too easy, but also good enough to improve my play?

Gradius.

[LordHypnos]

@ACSeraph: I was under the impression that Darius Gaiden autofire was for pussies...
Unfortunately that probably also goes for Mars Matrix piercing cannon autofire :emo:

[Patashu]

A well thought out response, I'll give you that.

Arcade games are designed where you have to survive X before you can attempt Y. It is why the final stages and patterns of a game are most exciting and intense, because they are not only the most difficult, but also because you have attempted them the least amount of times. I'd hate to take that excitement away from a new shmup player reaching the final pattern on a boss for the first time. It is the best the genre has to offer, those moments where you have to rely on your instinct and skill in order to clear a game, not because you practiced the final patterns for 20 minutes like a pussy.

Two notes:
1) In my personal experience, even after practicing stages 4 and 5 dozens of times like a pussy, the first full game run that breaks through to the final stage and has the potential to 1CC has my heart pounding, my adrenalin flowing and my whole body and mind sharpening into a fine instrument of bullet dodging (either that or I completely choke and go on tilt. But hey, that's what you do attempts for - to grind that part of you out! ). It no longer feels like practice - this time it counts, and all of your body and all of your mind knows it, and puts its it all in to help you through. It's amazing to experience for yourself! I don't see how ruthlessly practicing the hardest parts of the game should take that away - a hard part practiced many times is still hard, and human factors on many levels can cause you to slip or something new/unexpected to happen. (Unless of course it has a safespot/trivial solution. Then you should probably find a better shmup to play!) From another perspective, practicing a hard part then executing it well in a full game run makes it feel even better - because you know that you got through it due to your built up skill, training, observations and planning, rather than just getting lucky and reacting right. But of course, it's up to the person playing how to feel about it, but personally I fundamentally disagree that 'practicing for 20 minutes' and 'nailing it when it really counts feels amazing' are mutually exclusive.
2) You could always pick a random other shmup and go into it blind if you want to do some pure-reactions dodging. You would have to play for a very long time to run out of other shmups you haven't played yet, and doing this is essentially equivalent to artificially (in a 'has savestates' environment) restricting yourself to playing later stages.

Also, since I'm thinking about it:

I am quite new to shmup genre and currently Im playing a lot of DoDonPachi Dai-Ou-Jou, but it's hard and really challenging, so sometimes I need to rest and play something less demanding. Could you suggest something which would be good for newcomer but not too easy, but also good enough to improve my play?

DoDonPachi Dai-Ou-Jou is a really hard first shmup. Stage 3 from the midpoint on basically requires you to memorize a path due to the popcorn enemies completely blocking off parts of the screen with their bullets, the stationary enemies that shoot ultra-fast bullet streams - and then the boss itself has an incredibly difficult final pattern - the spiraling bullets that criss-cross rapidly in front of each other - that demands a skillset that you won't even be able to comprehend how it works yet. And then there's stage 4, with more dense popcorn streams and those platforms of turrets that move along the back of the screen and demand more memorization... I'm too afraid to even poke my head into stage 5! While this game is challenging, and challenge is good, it may be too early for you to take on this game unless you are OK with lots and lots of savestate-oriented brutal head-against-wall in your future. My personal opinion is to come back to this one later.

[ACSeraph]

From another perspective, practicing a hard part then executing it well in a full game run makes it feel even better - because you know that you got through it due to your built up skill, training, observations and planning, rather than just getting lucky and reacting right.

This. So much this.

When I get to the final boss on a random credit of something I haven't practiced, I'm never particularly excited by it. I assume since I don't have a plan that I probably won't survive and just got lucky if I did. When I blind cleared Mushi 1.5 I didn't find it exciting. When I cleared Caladrius yesterday after heavy planning and executing my many difficult strategies excellently I was fucking hype. It's a fundamental personality difference I think. It's no different for me when I beat someone who is clearly better than me at a fighter because they made foolish mistakes. I didn't win because my planning and ability was higher, and I can't be proud of that.

Having a very complex difficult gameplan and executing it flawlessly all the way to the final boss, and having one small mistep between you and a perfect run is the most nerve wracking intense experience in this genre imo. Far far more so than blindly fighting a final boss. And I'm not saying you can't get to that level without state practice, but it's certainly not the most efficient way to get there, and that method is not for everyone. Telling people they shouldn't state because states are for pussies is just simply a fucking lie.

@ACSeraph: I was under the impression that Darius Gaiden autofire was for pussies...
Unfortunately that probably also goes for Mars Matrix piercing cannon autofire :emo:

If it's in the game it's not cheating imo. Darius Gaiden is simply a fundamentally different game auto-off. I think it is a better, deeper game without it, but I don't consider the auto-on players cheaters.

[LordHypnos]

If it's in the game it's not cheating imo. Darius Gaiden is simply a fundamentally different game auto-off. I think it is a better, deeper game without it, but I don't consider the auto-on players cheaters.

Well, I was just joking, which you probably could tell, but FWIW, pussies aren't necessarily cheaters, and I'm guessing autofire (at the SAT rate) isn't in the AC version, which is maybe not an entirely trivial detail, even though we tend to say that things that are in the console version by default are good as true defaults.

[ACSeraph]

...and I'm guessing autofire (at the SAT rate) isn't in the AC version, which is maybe not an entirely trivial detail, even though we tend to say that things that are in the console version by default are good as true defaults.

Zero delay autofire is standard in Japanese pro level Darius Gaiden scoring, and though it isn't an option available in the actual PCB options (and it also appears the game was not really designed around it) I have never encountered the game in an arcade here where it didn't have a zero delay button. It usually looks like: [fire] [missile] [1/30 auto] on the actual machines here. So as far as whether it's legit or not is concerned, id say the answer is clear cut. But lets not pursue this, I only posted that troll because the Gaiden debate along with the save state debate is the shmups forum equivalent of abortion rights.

[Erppo]

Arcade games are designed where you have to survive X before you can attempt Y. It is why the final stages and patterns of a game are most exciting and intense, because they are not only the most difficult, but also because you have attempted them the least amount of times.

Continues generally exist. If you actually want to learn a game, you've been credit feeding the later stages since the start and are probably already familiar with them when you have to do them for real.

[Bonus!]

Back to the original question: I think that SDOJ Novice (Shot/Laser) is balanced very well, with a really good progression of difficulty. You can use this as a stepping stone for other games. For instance, when I went back to playing DDP after 1cc'ing SDOJ Novice a good handful of times, I noticed that I had gotten a lot better.

[amdiggywhut]

I agree, SDOJ (along with Ketsui) has probably improved my skills more than any other game. Adjustable hitbox is nice too.

[Doctor Butler]

Continues generally exist. If you actually want to learn a game, you've been credit feeding the later stages since the start and are probably already familiar with them when you have to do them for real.

If you credit-feed to practice, you only get to try everything once per run. With save-states, you can retry specific segments, and try to survive without death. In fact, CFing may lead you to develop bad habits, like playing single-player in a fighting game.

[KAI]

Playing single-player in fighting games counts as practice tho.

[trap15]

If you credit-feed to practice, you only get to try everything once per run. With save-states, you can retry specific segments, and try to survive without death.

But you learn the whole game at once with credit feeding. Obviously it's not better than savestates (who is making that claim?) but it's sure as fuck better than doing single credit only.

In fact, CFing may lead you to develop bad habits, like playing single-player in a fighting game.

Only if you don't know what you're doing. The only instance of that I can think of would be "I can take a hit here" which if you have half a brain you won't be accepting.

[ptoing]

...not because you practiced the final patterns for 20 minutes like a pussy.

Since we are going this route...

On the topic of autofire, I can not play games which do not have autofire for sustained periods of time (often even 1 or 2 credits is too much), because I have problems with my wrist. I am sure there are other people suffering from similar issues.

[chum]

Dear god always the same BS on here about the right or wrong way to play or practice video games.

[ptoing]

Dear god always the same BS on here about the right or wrong way to play or practice video games.

Yeah, whatever works and gets you better at playing the game. But a lot of people on here (and the internet at large) like to argue about non-issues.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

On the topic of autofire, I can not play games which do not have autofire for sustained periods of time (often even 1 or 2 credits is too much), because I have problems with my wrist. I am sure there are other people suffering from similar issues.

Playing an old Raiden clone and getting too carried away with fast button tapping gave me carpel tunnel which took 6 months to heal, so nowadays I avoid button mashing in games (ruined Anarchy Reigns for me).

[WizardYuuka]

The only instance of that I can think of would be "I can take a hit here" which if you have half a brain you won't be accepting.

5,554,940 - trap15 - Stage 5 - Golden Bat
trap15 - 5,838,140 - 6 - Strawman (C)

lecolonveeface

[KAI]

Making fun of scores :V

[trap15]

No, he was making a joke about "intentional deaths" and Yagawa games.

[Squire Grooktook]

From another perspective, practicing a hard part then executing it well in a full game run makes it feel even better - because you know that you got through it due to your built up skill, training, observations and planning, rather than just getting lucky and reacting right.

This. So much this.

When I get to the final boss on a random credit of something I haven't practiced, I'm never particularly excited by it. I assume since I don't have a plan that I probably won't survive and just got lucky if I did. When I blind cleared Mushi 1.5 I didn't find it exciting. When I cleared Caladrius yesterday after heavy planning and executing my many difficult strategies excellently I was fucking hype. It's a fundamental personality difference I think. It's no different for me when I beat someone who is clearly better than me at a fighter because they made foolish mistakes. I didn't win because my planning and ability was higher, and I can't be proud of that.

I can understand that, though personally I find it to be the opposite for me. There's a feeling of adventure in encountering things unpracticed, and suspense added from whether you'll be playing well enough to get through., and I personally find it very exciting.

I personally disagree with the fighting game analogy though, if someone is making stupid mistakes than they are basically handing you their ass on a silver platter. Clearing a shmup blind, the onus is still on you to be "in the zone" perhaps more so than usual. It's not like you can just luck dodge through.

Of course, all that is not to say I don't enjoy practicing stages. Ultimately it all comes down to how much I love a game, and how far I want to take it. Sometimes what I'll do is I'll play through it several times with different goals and methods. Maybe the first time I'll play it "as an adventure", and not save state or even watch replays so that I can have fun working my way through the game and discovering things for myself. After that, maybe I'll go back and try to get a perfect run or a high score, in which case I'll start save state practicing and other such things.

[ACSeraph]

^Yeah and I completely respect that. I get that people have different optimal ways to approach these games, I just don't want us spreading this anti-practice culture to the new guys. I didn't start really enjoying these games until I started embracing practice modes, so I think new players should understand that there are resources out there to take your game beyond just fucking around. When someone asks for advice about easier games because DOJ is too difficult, I think suggesting resources to help them better understand and conquer DOJ is a very legitimate response.

As for the fighting game analogy, I probably didn't express it well. I meant a mistake along the lines of dropping a combo. Like if I get hit by a launcher in Tekken that should end the match and by some act of god the other player drops the combo, I still consider that a failed match, because I didn't win due to my superior play so much as I won because they fucked up. If it were any other player the match should have ended the moment the launcher connected. I don't mean it in the sense of them spamming stupid unsafe shit.

[Squire Grooktook]

As for the fighting game analogy, I probably didn't express it well. I meant a mistake along the lines of dropping a combo. Like if I get hit by a launcher in Tekken that should end the match and by some act of god the other player drops the combo, I still consider that a failed match, because I didn't win due to my superior play so much as I won because they fucked up. If it were any other player the match should have ended the moment the launcher connected. I don't mean it in the sense of them spamming stupid unsafe shit.

Well true, but my point is that in a shmup a blind or unpracticed clear would still involve dodging and playing on ones A game. I think a better analogy for fighters would be "I made a whole bunch of strategic blunders and let him rush me down, but I played well and blocked all the overheads, dragon punched him, and got back into a good situation."

[dunpeal2064]

Playing a shmup blind is more like two people that have no idea how fighters work just flailing at each other. If they are worried about blocking overheads, they have probably practiced.