Shmups and Fighters

[Mortificator]

Not only that but misplaying a shooter can cost you an hour or 2 (or a lot longer depending on loops) whereas losing a tourney means you won't even get another attempt for a week/month/year. Money on the line makes fighters more nerve-wracking.

Isn't this external to the game? There's nothing stopping someone for holding a shooter tournament (well, aside from lack of interest) and back when Caravan was going on you'd only get one shot at that a year. And people can play anything for money. Even jacks would be nerve-wracking if there was ten grand riding on tensies.

[ACSeraph]

^It's because in shmups there is value attached to scores achieved in a non-tournament setting and the community respects those scores, but in fighters victories achieved outside of a tournament setting are meaningless in the eyes of the community. Basically in order to gain the respect of your peers, tournaments are the only proving grounds, which is not the case here in the shmups community.

[Squire Grooktook]

but in fighters victories achieved outside of a tournament setting are meaningless in the eyes of the community.

Not exactly meaningless. You often do see videos on srk like "High level set between Daigo Umehara and *insert other high level player here" that aren't from a tournament or anything. I think direct head to head competition is a little bit more essential for fighters. I could see people actually arranging live tournaments for shmups like the Caravan events mentioned, and those could probably be pretty fun and exciting. But it would probably take a lot of effort and initiative.

[ACSeraph]

Not exactly meaningless. You often do see videos on srk like "High level set between Daigo Umehara and *insert other high level player here" that aren't from a tournament or anything.

Yes, but that's only because those players already earned their reputation at live tournaments.

[CKR]

^It's because in shmups there is value attached to scores achieved in a non-tournament setting and the community respects those scores, but in fighters victories achieved outside of a tournament setting are meaningless in the eyes of the community. Basically in order to gain the respect of your peers, tournaments are the only proving grounds, which is not the case here in the shmups community.

I hope that changes because there are many good players that can get on the internet, but have no desire to travel long distances to a tournament. I'd like to see more online tournaments with game publishers sponsoring them.

[Squire Grooktook]

Also worth noting that even though fame and recognition are most often won in tournaments, playing online isn't quite as meaningless as credit feeding would be considered with shmups. Lots of big names host streams where they just play randoms online while giving commentary and whatnot.

[Ganelon]

ACSeraph: Unfortunately, I pretty much ignore scores (chronic 1CCer instead) so I'm not familiar with any fighter with interesting scoring and don't recall ever seeing a full fighting game superplay. I do understand scoring is difficult though and—depending on the game—could emphasize consistent perfects combined with flashy combos as well as double KOs. I remember checking out ST's top scores and figuring out that you needed to average about 350,000 points per match with Ryu to reach the world record. That number seems almost mind-bogglingly high so there are no doubt plenty of execution and AI tricks involved.

CKR: The video you linked sounds like detailed commentary although it still didn't mention in-depth techniques (e.g. faking a normal for an overhead, option selects), perhaps deliberately so. It's useful to re-watch videos at different stages of ability to pick up on nuances missed in earlier watches.

As for online, there have been online qualifiers for a few Capcom events but it doesn't make any sense to me to legitimize online further. I understand that travel is difficult for some. However, lag is a critical problem with today's technology (and fighting systems) that makes online results—at least in the US—difficult to gauge. I've seen firsthand how winning 20 in a row online can translate into losing 10 in a row offline. There do seem to be plenty of grassroots online tourneys available for folks who want the satisfaction of semi-serious competition without leaving their homes.

Mortificator: The competitive environment is external to the game, sure. However, if the goal is to become a "high level player," then all aspects of high level play ought to be factored in. People could certainly run the 2 genres differently but little has changed in the past ~25 years: fighters are still determined through tourneys and shooters through non-event play.

[Obiwanshinobi]

^It's because in shmups there is value attached to scores achieved in a non-tournament setting and the community respects those scores, but in fighters victories achieved outside of a tournament setting are meaningless in the eyes of the community. Basically in order to gain the respect of your peers, tournaments are the only proving grounds, which is not the case here in the shmups community.

I don't think all the people who collectively funded those fighters by inserting their coins in the nineteen-nineties even heard of tournaments, which is not to say street cred wasn't at stake back in the day. Surely those cabs could be found in countries where the access to games mags wasn't as easy as looking up YouTube is nowadays.

[Doctor Butler]

^It's because in shmups there is value attached to scores achieved in a non-tournament setting and the community respects those scores, but in fighters victories achieved outside of a tournament setting are meaningless in the eyes of the community. Basically in order to gain the respect of your peers, tournaments are the only proving grounds, which is not the case here in the shmups community.

Don't disregard local bragging rights. The fgc is all about grassroots. And definitely don't disregard online infamy;

There are people like The Besteban, an event organizer, or Maxximilian, who rarely even attends events, but both are well known through their talented online exploits, regardless of their lack of accolades.

[Obiwanshinobi]

The world where you can't be serious about your games if you don't attend tournaments... Not many folks whom I know about seem to live in such a world.

[CKR]

CKR: The video you linked sounds like detailed commentary although it still didn't mention in-depth techniques (e.g. faking a normal for an overhead, option selects), perhaps deliberately so. It's useful to re-watch videos at different stages of ability to pick up on nuances missed in earlier watches.

Ganelon, thanks for your input. I'll have to watch the videos again to notice what you're talking about. I've been playing fighting games for twenty years, but I still consider myself a beginner. Does anybody know of a youtube video channel that focuses on breaking matches down?

[Doctor Butler]

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcPC8v ... TTguCF9jCQ
https://www.youtube.com/user/Miles923

[ACSeraph]

You guys are misinterpreting what I'm saying a bit I think. I'm not saying you can't be legitimately good if you aren't playing at tournaments, and I'm not saying you don't earn local or online cred either.

But what we were comparing earlier was the intensity of competing at a pro level in shmups and fighters. There's just no argument here, tournaments are pro, online is not. If you get a world class score on Xbox live in a shmup, you might get an interview in Shooting Gameside. But lets say you are top ranking online in a fighter? No one is going to consider you world class until you get your ass out of the house and prove yourself against all the best players at a tournament. There are reasons for this, but I won't go into them because it's not important. If you are a beast online, maybe you are world class, maybe even the community thinks you might have what it takes to be world class. But until you get out there and prove it to them, you aren't.

[Ganelon]

Ganelon, thanks for your input. I'll have to watch the videos again to notice what you're talking about. I've been playing fighting games for twenty years, but I still consider myself a beginner. Does anybody know of a youtube video channel that focuses on breaking matches down?

I'm actually not familiar enough with SFIV to say which videos are ideal. I doubt any video will spoonfeed every aspect of a match, hence the tremendous learning curve to become a high-level player. Even for my game, Super Turbo, I don't think I've ever encountered a video that explained every nuance in a full match although there are detailed tutorials of more advanced techniques: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBxyBXMZqbA
I've been interested in putting one out but haven't had the motivation or time. If you really want to learn Skullgirls, I know folks will be at Evo playing it on the side and will be willing to provide tips.

Just for reference, the faking a normal to overhead I mentioned earlier is when Infiltration did a standing punch on Daigo's wakeup to fake an overhead (since the punches look roughly similar on startup) and cause Daigo to block high. Daigo immediately realized the bait and moved to block low again (since lows are the typical action in these circumstances) but Infiltration already predicted Daigo would do that and followed the fake overhead with a real overhead to hit Daigo just as the latter started crouch blocking. For option selects, many of the wakeup offense options starting from Daigo's crossup to tatsu (where Infiltration teleported) have additional inputs buffered into the motions to automatically account for opponent responses. Basically, this technique allows the best move to come out at any point in time at the cost of input difficulty. In effect, some of the specials were elaborately inputted and aren't mere guesses.

[Frenetic]

STGWeekly recently held a shmup live event at SoCal Regionals, a fighting game event, I really believe that there could be a lot of cross-fertilization between the communities. I challenge you to contact your local fighter tournament and ask to hold a shmup demo/side event competition. People even use their own sticks, it's really awesome!

Cheers,
F

[KAI]

In my experience, most of the FG players I've met didn't like shmups, but all the Shmup players I've met were really good at FG.

[Squire Grooktook]

In my experience, most of the FG players I've met didn't like shmups, but all the Shmup players I've met were really good at FG.

Most of the fg players I've met either play shmups, or at least have a respect for them even if they don't actually devote time to them. I've only met one or two fg players who outright disliked shmups and they weren't very good

[Doctor Butler]

I've never met anyone who liked one, but not the other.

[drunkninja24]

I actually started in our local FG scene before I got into shmups. A buddy of mine (good ol Drauch on these forums) brought by a Saturn with Dodonpachi one day not long after I first started going to weekly meets after SF2 HDR came out. Loved it, then started seeking out other Cave/shmup stuff, and, well, here I am now

I usually bring my 360 and shmups when I go to local tournaments, and I definitely playing on bringing my setup when I go to UFGT in Chicago at the end of May. Gotta help spread the love

[CKR]

Ganelon, thanks for your input. I'll have to watch the videos again to notice what you're talking about. I've been playing fighting games for twenty years, but I still consider myself a beginner. Does anybody know of a youtube video channel that focuses on breaking matches down?

I'm actually not familiar enough with SFIV to say which videos are ideal. I doubt any video will spoonfeed every aspect of a match, hence the tremendous learning curve to become a high-level player. Even for my game, Super Turbo, I don't think I've ever encountered a video that explained every nuance in a full match although there are detailed tutorials of more advanced techniques: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBxyBXMZqbA
I've been interested in putting one out but haven't had the motivation or time. If you really want to learn Skullgirls, I know folks will be at Evo playing it on the side and will be willing to provide tips.

Just for reference, the faking a normal to overhead I mentioned earlier is when Infiltration did a standing punch on Daigo's wakeup to fake an overhead (since the punches look roughly similar on startup) and cause Daigo to block high. Daigo immediately realized the bait and moved to block low again (since lows are the typical action in these circumstances) but Infiltration already predicted Daigo would do that and followed the fake overhead with a real overhead to hit Daigo just as the latter started crouch blocking. For option selects, many of the wakeup offense options starting from Daigo's crossup to tatsu (where Infiltration teleported) have additional inputs buffered into the motions to automatically account for opponent responses. Basically, this technique allows the best move to come out at any point in time at the cost of input difficulty. In effect, some of the specials were elaborately inputted and aren't mere guesses.

Thanks for the explanation. You should be doing these videos. As for playing Skullgirls on the side at EVO, I don't understand what this means. Is it a tournament that is being held right next to the EVO site, or is it just that it isn't officially being put on by EVO?

[Blinge]

Cheers Ganelon, now i finally understand what an option select is!

not quite sure how to do it though..

[Ganelon]

Most fighting game tournaments have community-run tournaments for games that aren't part of the official roster. Evo is no exception and always has a BYOC (bring your own console) area for people to bring their own games for casuals and run their own tourneys. These unofficial titles are the side games. Skullgirls doesn't seem to be an official Evo game this year but there will certainly be people playing it in casuals and there will be a side tourney as well (according to a friend of mine who happens to be one of the top Skullgirls players offline and online).

As for option selects, the T.Hawk video I linked above shows one of the most well-known OS setups in ST. Fellow ST player nohoho also wrote a great piece about one of Ryu's most basic OS a few years back: http://curryallergy.blogspot.com/2010/0 ... punch.html