Input needed for new LCD purchase

[mistahsnart]

*SOLVED - Thanks to Fudoh and Xyga for helping me understand this "issue" is actually exactly how it's supposed to work*

TL;DR - I'm looking for input on buying a large LCD screen, with minimal motion blur, that has good viewing angles for tate. Sick of my Framemeister's scanlines vanishing in tate while playing DoDonpachi.

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OK, here's the setup:

Due to having to downsize, I recently ditched my CRTs, and I'm in the market for a larger LCD display (27"-30" 1080p) for my gaming setup. Around 10 consoles all connected via RGB SCART into my Framemeister, and my gaming PC as well. I'm looking at monitors specifically because I don't think I'll find an HDTV that will meet my needs (plus I don't need all the tuner and smartTV nonsense). HDMI input is required. Built-in speakers would be nice, but not a deal breaker, so long as I can get audio out of it. I have an Ergotron Neo-Flex Wide stand already for pivot and rotate, so no need to look for one with those features.

I play a fairly even mix of games: sidescrollers, vertical shmups, FPS, etc.

These are the two screens I have that led me to seeking advice:
32" Panasonic IPS LCD TV - 60hz, 1366x768 native res. Pulled this out of the bedroom to try. For PC stuff, it does alright. Running games at native res looks good, and it will take a 1080p signal if I want it to (with a slight downscaled sharpening effect). I tried my Ergotron wide desktop mount for it for tate mode, but it blurs so badly, the scanlines from the FM vanish in games like DoDonpachi (where the playfield scrolls left and right as well). Not to mention the 768p vertical butchers any hope of decent scanline rendering anyway.

23" NEC ea232wmi e-IPS monitor - 1080p native, handles 720p out of the FM like a champ. However, still has the same motion blur issue that basically renders scanlines invisible in DoDonpachi when the playfield scrolls left and right. It's also pretty tiny, and no native HDMI, so that's no fun.

So that's where I'm at. I've been looking at 27" monitors from Asus and BenQ. Specifically these two:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007HSKSP0/
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009HNEBLK/

They both seem to meet my needs, and the prices are quite good.

The BenQ is a VA panel, and the Asus is a TN (although some sites list it as IPS). Now, I'm used to my IPS panels I use for design work. I tried a TN panel about 8 years ago, and quickly returned it due to horrible color shift. I know the tech has come a long way in recent years, but I still have the fear. In either case: I'm not convinced that either will eliminate my problem of vanishing scanlines in tate.

Anyway, sorry for the long-winded post. If anyone has any advice for me, it is greatly appreciated.

Cheers.

[Fudoh]

However, still has the same motion blur issue

current VA monitors (like the BenQ you mentioned) have WAY MORE more motion blur than your current IPS set. And going from IPS to TN is next to impossible. The viewing angles will drive you crazy.

[mistahsnart]

However, still has the same motion blur issue

current VA monitors (like the BenQ you mentioned) have WAY MORE more motion blur than your current IPS set. And going from IPS to TN is next to impossible. The viewing angles will drive you crazy.

So is my situation just hopeless? Surely, I can't be the only one that finds the issue of the FM scanlines disappearing in tate maddening. I'd use my plasma, but it's a little too big and heavy to lean on it's side

[Fudoh]

I can't be the only one that finds the issue of the FM scanlines disappearing in tate maddening

you're talking about games scrolling across the scanline direction ? E.g. vertically scrolling on a horizontal screen (Super Aleste etc) ? If yes, then the disappearing scanlines are normal and have nothing to do with pixel response time.

[mistahsnart]

you're talking about games scrolling across the scanline direction

Not sure about Super Aleste, but what I'm referring to is titles like DoDonpachi, Raiden, or any vertical game where the playfield scrolls left and right with the player ship.

In tate, the scanlines from the FM are in vertical orientation as they would be on a CRT (obviously). Now in a game where the playfield only moves down from the top (let's say Strikers 1945 for example), there's no noticeable issue since the background is scrolling from top to bottom only. The display only has to deal with drawing the image scrolling top to bottom, which doesn't blur the scanlines.

So same scenario (screen in tate, scanlines from the FM running in vertical orientation): in titles where the playfield not only moves from top to bottom, but also scrolls left to right with the players movements, the scanlines from the FM vanish when the background scrolls from left to right. If you just move the ship up and down, as to not cause the background to scroll left and right, there's no issue. As soon as you move on the X axis: they're gone until you stop again.

To me, it looks like an issue related to ghosting (or pixel response). If that's not the correct term, fair enough. However, it is something that definitely ruins the experience of simulated scanlines, and I can't imagine I'm the only one to notice.

[Xyga]

@mistahsnart: All 60Hz monitors produce more or less motion blur anyway.

PS: regarding pixel response times -> some current AMVA+ with well-implemented RTC/overdrive are getting very close to the IPSe's performance.
Maybe not on all color transitions but still with very good results!
Asus VN279QLB, Iiyama XB2783HSU-B1 for instance.

[Fudoh]

As soon as you move on the X axis: they're gone until you stop again.

when you have last played the same games on a CRT ? It's almost the same.

[mistahsnart]

PS: regarding pixel response times -> some current AMVA+ with well-implemented RTC/overdrive are getting very close to the IPSe's performance.
Maybe not on all color transitions but still with very good results!
Asus VN279QLB, Iiyama XB2783HSU-B1 for instance.

I've been reading about BenQs solution over on BlurBusters, and I'm intrigued. The Strobe Utility for the Z series monitors sounds almost too good to be true, especially since the settings aren't locked to a GPU like LightBoost. Am I correct in thinking that it would help eliminate the issue I'm describing?

As soon as you move on the X axis: they're gone until you stop again.

when you have last played the same games on a CRT ? It's almost the same.

Last week, actually. Friend of mine has a retro arcade in his basement, and I spend a fair amount of time on his Raiden cab. Can't say that I agree with you that the same thing happens, but I'm also not ruling out that perhaps it's not as prominent as it is on an LCD. You certainly know a fair bit more than myself on this subject.

[Fudoh]

Am I correct in thinking that it would help eliminate the issue I'm describing?

no. The "disappearence" of the scanlines is already happening on the FM.

[Xyga]

@Fudoh: Yeah just like you mentioned once the black lines almost disappear when playing any game in yoko as well.

But for some reason it can be a bit more noticeable on a LCD... guess the pixel transition times and backlighting play a little role in our perception of this phenomenon.

@mistahsnart: Read about it but I don't know if this even applies for our needs...

[Fudoh]

Can't say that I agree with you that the same thing happens, but I'm also not ruling out that perhaps it's not as prominent as it is on an LCD

I have shown this to a friend over here only two weeks ago, since we talked about him disliking scanlines and why he hardly ever noticed them on vertically scrolling shoot'em ups (with a horizontal screen).

[mistahsnart]

Can't say that I agree with you that the same thing happens, but I'm also not ruling out that perhaps it's not as prominent as it is on an LCD

I have shown this to a friend over here only two weeks ago, since we talked about him disliking scanlines and why he hardly ever noticed them on vertically scrolling shoot'em ups (with a horizontal screen).

Ah, I see. I must've just not seen it on all the CRT I've used over the years. I'm thinking that Xyga is correct: it's probably a bit more noticeable with LCD displays. Also:

Am I correct in thinking that it would help eliminate the issue I'm describing?

no. The "disappearence" of the scanlines is already happening on the FM.

This is interesting to me. So did Micomsoft intentionally do this as to replicate how it worked on CRTs?

Thanks for the input, fellas! I appreciate it. As per usual: I come away from this forum learning something new. Now I can turn my attention to getting a large 1080p native LCD display rather than that *shudder* 768p one.

On that note: is there a preferred larger monitor that people recommend? Knowing what I know now, I'm leaning towards the Asus VS278Q-P. Just looking for input to make an informed purchasing decision.

[Xyga]

There aren't many good large IPS monitors, surprisingly. AMVA+ panels quickly became the more popular type for some reason.

The popular QNIX QX2710 Evolution II is IPS and 1440p, but a crapload of people seem to be very happy with it.
http://wecravegamestoo.com/forums/monit ... e-pls.html
Be aware though, that IPS panels are more prone to backlight bleeding, and I don't know how good/bad Amazon's return policy can be for this - import - product.

And no, nothing larger than 27" worthy of attention, at least not at the moment...

[mistahsnart]

There aren't many good large IPS monitors, surprisingly. AMVA+ panels quickly became the more popular type for some reason...

That makes me sad. Backlight bleed doesn't bother me in the slightest. I'm a stickler for preserving my eyesight, so I always have a lamp on around the screen. So I'd never really see the 'black screen in a black room' scenario.

Apparently, that Asus monitor *is* an IPS panel... but some people say it's not... I wish companies would just publish the damn specs. Guess I'll be taking advantage of Amazon's generous return policy if it turns out to be TN or VA...

[Fudoh]

AMVA+ panels quickly became the more popular type for some reason.

blacks of course.

This is interesting to me. So did Micomsoft intentionally do this as to replicate how it worked on CRTs?

I guess so. It's been like this on all XRGB machines starting in the 90s already.

[airs]

I'm really enjoying my LG 27EA63V. 27", 1080p, IPS, 10ms input lag. Low ghosting and good 60hz motion. No speakers but it does have audio output. Doesn't rotate out of the box but it does have a VESA mount so I am using a Monoprice stand for that (~$21 + shipping). I think I paid about $280 for the monitor itself.

[Xyga]

That LG 27EA63V seems to be as good as 27" 1080p60 monitors go today, in the league of the many AOC like the i2757fm with a little bit higher PWM frequency.

Still I don't understand why they don't do any with flicker-free backlight or higher native resolution.

I'd go for that QNIX if only it could handle consoles (it can't according to the reviews) *sigh*

Honestly I've been on the market for a large monitor for a while as well, but I have yet to find one that ticks all the boxes (at least the boxes that matter to me).

[Xyga]

Sorry for double-posting but I have just remembered reading about at least one flicker-free 27" 1080p60 IPS (well PLS);

Samsung S27D590P

Only one Korean review available (use google translate and try to see through the gibberish): http://www.playwares.com/xe/39532172

Seems to be very similar to most mentioned monitors in the same category, except it is flicker-free.
No rotating stand nor VESA mount though, sucks.

No mention of the quality of the upscaling/interpolation as well...

[Fudoh]

Honestly I've been on the market for a large monitor for a while as well

I have very high hopes for the 32" BenQ 1440p model which is about to arrive next month. Perfect size/resolution/dpi.

[Xyga]

Yes me too, kind of.
I just hope it won't have 20+ms input lag like all big multi-input monitors do, and that BenQ won't mess up the AMA/overdrive.

[moh]

I bought a samsung S27C350H, and the LED backlight flicker is killing me ._____.

I didn't even know this was a problem before trying this monitor, turns out the majority of LED backlit monitors have noticeable flicker. I'm contemplating disassembling it and finding a way to mod the driver board for the back light to increase the pulse frequency.

probably easier said than done...

**edit.. this article may be of interest to those as crazy as me

http://wiki.samygo.tv/index.php5/Smooth ... of_Your_TV

[Xyga]

Depends on people and the flicker frequency...

Most aren't bothered by flickering effects even at low frequencies (180-200Hz), a minority is very sensitive to it.

I think it is no longer noticeable when somewhere beyond 2000Hz or something, the Asus VN279QLB for instance stands in that category.

Don't know if a monitor can be modded to increase the frequency though...

EDIT: so it can... looks a bit risky.

[Fudoh]

TFTcentral reviewed the BenQ BL3200PT. Only available for $1 right now (free on May 16th).

Piss poor out of the box color calibration, but spot on calibration possible through some custom settings. VA-typical respone times with some color transitions showing very prolonged response times. 22ms total lag (input lag + 50% typical response).

I'm still wondering though if the input lag can't be defeated through some menu setting as TFTcentral attested the same lag to the 27" model, while prad claimed that the 27" was nearly a whole frame faster.

Very tempted to get one once it's available over here (still only listed as a preorder while it's already available in other countries).

[Xyga]

I'm still wondering though if the input lag can't be defeated through some menu setting as TFTcentral attested the same lag to the 27" model, while prad claimed that the 27" was nearly a whole frame faster.

Very tempted to get one once it's available over here (still only listed as a preorder while it's available available in other countries).

That would be awesome, I'm still bugged by that prad.de review as well. Really strange.

On my side I feel more and more tempted by the Samsung S27D590P, it's a completely different category yes, and it lacks rotation/vesa, but so far it is most probably the best IPS/PLS solution around (when it comes to 1080p60 of course).
Been missing some of the IPS/PLS qualities lately, and I've already got two VA displays (Belinea 2080S2 & Sony W6)...