Why are Cave games so highly regarded?

[hashbrownz]

They established a lot of the design standards you see in contemporary shmups; practically pioneered the danmaku genre; and have managed to concoct some of the most beautifully convoluted scoring systems known to man. Their games, despite their difficulty, are also incredibly accessible as they didn't pull a lot of shenanigans that their contemporaries were infamous for. Throw in great music, amazing visuals, and overall incredible production value and I think you'll get the picture. Plus, their games are pretty consistent in terms of quality.

But, if I had to pick one reason for Cave's fame, I'd say it all started with the cat spider from Guwange.

[ACSeraph]

Cave games have a distinct ratio of accessibility and memorization that gives them a special appeal.

This is probly it right here, it's not that they don't require memorization so much as the process of familiarizing yourself with them is more natural than other shmups and as a result it's actually fun. They give you just enough leeway that you feel like you could have escaped something blind which reduces frustration, and the strategies that you learn (commit to memory) while playing come more naturally. It's not the same as other shmups where it's like, be right here or die! Where you have basically no chance of progressing without knowing the exact strategy.

[Squire Grooktook]

All difficult games require some level of memorization. From fighting games: frame data, combos, hit box etc. Adventure games: dark souls familiarity with mechanics, bosses and geography, actions games: take Dmc3, and even difficulty platforms such as megaman games, contra, metal Slug, and gng. Familiarity is needed for difficulty.

Errr, I'm not sure I can agree entirely. It's often a side effect, but there's no reason you can't in-theory, develop a game that telegraphs every death and manages to be exceedingly difficult and skillfull while still being fully clearable on the first attempt.

It's hard but it's doable, and at least worth trying to pull off imo from a game design perspective.

But other wise yeah, most games, even if they can be cleared blind, you can still get better by learning and make things easier. Which is of course a good thing since it lends a sense of depth and strategy to the game.

[Mortificator]

Been a fan of beverages all my life, but I've never drank a single beer because they only release for bottles and cans and taps. I am a carton drinker. I'm just wondering what everyone likes about them and what sets them apart from other liquids.

[ACSeraph]

^PC has Raptor, who needs Cave?

[Kochab]

Thanks for all the replies. This has been pretty insightful. I'll definitely have to play these myself, but I also wanted the perspective of people more experienced with shmups than I am, so I appreciate it.

[Erppo]

there aren't many Cave games your average player is going to be able to flail their way through (with a couple exceptions).

This sounds like shifting the goalposts to me. The original posts claimed that clearing without memorizing a bunch of stuff was simply impossible.

If your average player keeps on playing, he will get better and dodge more things on reaction. A more memorization oriented game will still always kill him before he figures out how to deal with it.

[IrishNinja]

first 3 replies nailed it for me - i know not everyone digs bullet hell/moe aesthetics/etc but they're solid enjoyable games, and still being made. plus DoDonPachi & older ones are classics and crazy enjoyable to this day.

also: i knew about Ika, didn't know people hated Giga Wing though.

[Kollision]

didn't know people hated Giga Wing though.

what?

[IrishNinja]

like, even before coming here, i heard people not digging Ikaruga, which i get for its changes (i personally dig it), i just didn't really see a lotta hate on Giga Wing before i guess

[brentsg]

Giga Wing was terrible long before I found this forum.

[IrishNinja]

Why was that exactly? i recall it being enjoyable

[LordHypnos]

I quite like Giga Wang, too, but Mars Matrix is better in every way! I think there's a lot of people who hate Takumi games in general though. around here, anyway. It's off topic and based on an earlier conversation, but I really think MM does the whole "appealing to visceral pleasure" thing incredibly well. Giga Wing has rediculously high scoring, which is also related to that tangent.

[IrishNinja]

see, Mars Matrix ive seen a lotta love for it for the most part (rightfully so), Giga Wing just seemed kinda forgotten i thought.

[LordHypnos]

see, Mars Matrix ive seen a lotta love for it for the most part (rightfully so), Giga Wing just seemed kinda forgotten i thought.

It got on the forum's top 25 for a few years (I think it dropped off this year though)

[Kollision]

Giga Wing was terrible long before I found this forum.

How interesting, I always thought of Takumi as the superior company.
Unfortunately it folded too soon while Cave flourished.

[EmperorIng]

To be fair, I feel like GW2 is superior in every way to Giga Wing, excepting the ugly muddy 3D. Volcanons, man!

[LordHypnos]

I think you guys are helping evidence my point that part of Cave's reputation comes from how widely their games appeal compared to other devs. Not too many around here would say they actually dislike Cave (and for many it's their fav. company), but there are at least a few who strongly dislike, for example, Takumi, even though there are some people who prefer Takumi over Cave. What other dev, or thing, for that matter can STG fans agree on? not many.
But then again, I might be risking begging the question here, because this is almost like saying "Cave is popular because they're popular"

[EmperorIng]

That might be begging the question though. It's easier to "experience" cave games because many are available on the most recent platform, have extensively released over the last decade or so, and have the "collector's appeal" to them (see: gotta buy my collection box!).

No one "collects" Taito shmups/pcbs (cool Darius swag notwithstanding ), or Raizing ports/pcbs, or Takumi or Psikyo stuff. But people collect (or collected? lol) cardboard boxes with cave logos on them. How many people play maybe one, two Cave games and rush to gobble up a dozen more, plus merch, without actually playing them or appreciating them? I feel like the number is larger than you'd think. I think the mystique and hype is shrewdly utilized and exploited (again, two ultimate-collection boxes), which is funny when the actual localized games are often bargain cheap.

Again, I think the appeal isn't wholly dependent on the game itself, or sometimes, in spite of the game (lolis).

[IrishNinja]

^people should collect more Taito everything

[slk486]

No one "collects" Taito shmups/pcbs (cool Darius swag notwithstanding ), or Raizing ports/pcbs, or Takumi or Psikyo stuff.

I do I much prefer Toaplan over Cave. Both in style of play, aesthetics, and music.

[Captain]

ahem.

Cave games are highly regarded for inspiring and setting a standard for many other bullet hells, as well as making one of the first, if not most popular games that could actually be called a bullet hell.

To boot, their games are very noob friendly but still provide a challenge for experts with loop unlocking requirements.

Add some original mechanics, nice music (except Ketsui which has awesome music) and awesome graphics and you have yourself a highly regarded company.


That said, I Prefer both taito, konami and toaplan.
Sorry.