Why are Cave games so highly regarded?

[Kochab]

Been a fan of shmups all my life, but I've never played a single Cave game because they only release for the XBox and on tablets and smartphones. I am a PC gamer. I'm just wondering what everyone likes about them and what sets them apart from other shooters.

[drunkninja24]

Big reason these days is probably because they are (were?) one of the few commercial devs still making shmups. For the most part (imo) they make fun games with a good level of polish and presentation.

If you wanna check out some of their stuff for yourself, you could check out DoDonPachi in MAME or something. Worth a look for sure.

[CStarFlare]

Solid visual presentation, solid challenge, and they typically design their games to encourage playing for score (ie: competition).

[ACSeraph]

Because Cave game's have basically no upper limits on how far you can take them for score oriented play.

Their scoring systems may often be obtuse and even unfun (fuck you chaining) for certain players, but you can't argue against the depth they provide. Not to mention they give you bajillions of shiny things at once in slow motion when you perform well which seems to be a kind of coccaine for certain primordial sections of the gamer brain. Cave games are like... scoring porn.

I think this has way more to do with their popularity than aesthetic or attack design among the hardcore. There are tons of games that surpass Cave's stuff aesthetically and even on the basis of stage design depending on the tastes of the player in question, but I can't think of many that offer quite the sensory overload that Cave does.

[LordHypnos]

I haven't really experienced much of cave games (just Do Don Pachi in MAME a little bit), but based on observations of others, it seems like there's a few things: For one, the games are designed really well and manage to feel less unfair than a lot of other games (though there are other games that don't feel unfair). Also, they seem to appeal to a broad audience. Individual shmuppers might have a preferred dev over Cave, but almost nobody actually dislikes Cave. Plenty of shmuppers really dislike, for example, Giga Wing or Ikaruga, even if there's a lot of people who would take Ikaruga over Cave any day.
Also, it seems like two of their most popular games: Mushihimesama Futari, and Do Don Pachi are good examples of games that provide a solid challenge that isn't overwhelming to newbies, but also provide a solid challenge, through scoring, DDP second loop, maybe the higher modes in MushiFuta (not sure if that has multiple loops) to more experienced players. I guess you might say they're easy to play, but difficult to master. I think that factor shouldn't be underestimated.

[beatsgo]

Pretty much everything that was said by ACseraph and CStarFlare. I think why they thrived in the late 1990s and early 2000s has to do with creating bullet hells. There's no one who does it well other than Cave at the time (though I can disgress), thus gaining a reputation on making great danmaku shmups. Having this notoriety carries on throughout the company's life that it becomes their development ideology. Plus having difficult games attracts the better players to master it. Showcasing the difficulty of a cave game alone will build high regards towards Cave. I mean if you asked some gamer about Mushihimesama Futari, they probably wouldn't know it unless you mention THE HARDEST VIDEO GAME BOSS EVER! video.

[Illyrian]

They tend not to have any of the crippling design shortfalls that games by Psikyo or Treasure have. They have awesome soundtracks, immediate and intuitive gameplay (apart from in a few places) and don't have bosses who are complete bullshit and solely based on memorization like so many shmups do.

Also, small hitboxes and lots of bullets = feeling like a badass.

[monouchi]

They make really good games.

[EmperorIng]

Crippling design shortfalls? Are we playing the same games?

immediate and intuitive gameplay

It's funny you trash Psikyo for the thing they excel far more at Cave at. It's like you forget all the arbitrary rules that make up Cave's game systems (use this weapon, then THIS weapon; shoot all enemies within a half-second of one another; convert gems to gold fast!).

This doesn't make any Cave game bad per se, but you can't say ANY Cave scoring system is immediate, or intuitive. Also remember, their stages are designed around them (ie, around using weapon 2 then weapon 1, arbitrary killing patterns, etc.). Gunbird 2 by contrast is designed around shooting and dodging, and not much else (coin collecting for the crazy). It's a bit more common-sense.

OP:

Games are colorful, with many designed around an interesting idea (ESPGaluda, Guwange). Also, they have some good boss fights. Dai Ou Jou and Ketsui have my favorite Cave bosses. I think it's the combination of difficulty and presentation that make them popular, that and that Cave was the only one making shmups like that (G.Rev never hit it big, unfortunately).

[Phellan Wolf]

I mean if you asked some gamer about Mushihimesama Futari, they probably wouldn't know it unless you mention THE HARDEST VIDEO GAME BOSS EVER! video.

Daiojou's Hibachi says hello!!!!!!
All credits from Cave succes go to Yagawa IMO, althoug Ikeda's Ketsui is one of my favourites though.

[kathy]

Been a fan of shmups all my life, but I've never played a single Cave game because they only release for the XBox and on tablets and smartphones. I am a PC gamer. I'm just wondering what everyone likes about them and what sets them apart from other shooters.

I think it's because they get so much right. Anyone can pick up a cave game and have fun or get serious with score. A pet peeve I have had with some other developers is the lack of auto fire (this is because im getting too old to enjoy mashing buttons). I also like the fact that losing a life doesn't take you back to a radically powered down weapon. These seemingly small things that make a world of difference to me personally.

just my 2 cents

[ACSeraph]

A pet peeve I have had with some other developers is the lack of auto fire (this is because im getting too old to enjoy mashing buttons). I also like the fact that losing a life doesn't take you back to a radically powered down weapon. These seemingly small things that make a world of difference to me personally.

Cave stuff came from a totally different era from what you're describing here though. I think it's more fair to compare Cave's stuff to other modern options. Modern takes on classic horis don't tend to screw you as much with powering down, and I can't think of any modern games without autofire.

[Illyrian]

Seraph is on the money here, in every game up to Doj included power ups boinged all over the place when you died in Cave games.

[Erppo]

All credits from Cave succes go to Yagawa IMO

I'm pretty sure all his games are among the least successful games the company has made.

[Teufel_in_Blau]

Been a fan of shmups all my life, but I've never played a single Cave game because they only release for the XBox and on tablets and smartphones.

You are missing out, man. I think most of the people already said why they are so awesome, let me just add to that once I understood playing Espgaluda II for score, I was blasted away. It's like a rainbow is shitting colorful numbers in your face. Scoring porn? Yes, it is pure video gaming pornography.

I don't know your financial situation and you should always concentrate on your RL problems first before you are diving into the costly world of shmups but right know you can get a used 360 for something like 110 Euro on Amazon Germany, probably even cheaper if you search elsewhere. You can get a good/ok stick at around 100 Euro and some of the CAVE shooters that got released in the west you can buy for 5-10 Euro new (Deathsmiles, Akai Katana, DDP Resurrection)! I'm assuming of course that you already own a TV. So you buy a CAVE machine with 3 games for less than 250 Euro. That's a steal for this high quality games and countless of fun hours they will deliver. If you are really into shmups, you should stop doing yourself a disservice and dive into the beautiful world of CAVE bullet heaven games.

althoug Ikeda's Ketsui is one of my favourites though.

I hope I don't shatter your dreams but Ketsui was designed by Tomoharu Saito who sadly passed away in 2006 at the very young age of 38.
There is not much information about him in the English web, so don't fell bad for not knowing him. Here a little more info: http://wiki.igda.org/Memorials/Tomoharu_Saito and http://ngemu.com/threads/game-designer- ... -38.75764/

/e
Goddammit, after reading my links I just realized that he was the CHARACTER designer, not the game designer. So, I'm taking back the Ikeda part. Somehow I always assumed that he was the designer of Ketsui. Oh well, I need to work on my reading comprehension.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

CAVE's SH3/360 era games are quite different to their older arcade hits that play well on MAME. Scoreplayer porn is a very apt description, scoring well in Mushi 2, Akai Katana etc is like constantly winning the jackpot of a casino gambling machine (edit if you've played Mars Matrix you'll get the idea), CAVE's colour palette is top notch too, vibrant contrasting colours that jump out of the screen.

I also like CAVE's stage design, playing Mushihimisama Futari stages 4 & 5 is very zen like for me.

[Skykid]

They're fucking amazing.

[Blinge]

Scoreplayer porn is a very apt description, scoring well in Mushi 2, Akai Katana etc is like constantly winning the jackpot of a casino gambling machine

Also Progear.

[emphatic]

Cave games are like... scoring porn.

Watching someone else play them well is like this. Playing them yourself is more like scoring sex.

[Blinge]

^
a little off topic but GigaWing 2's volcannon is basically a gem-gasm... It's probably my favourite part of the game.

It's interesting actually how much Cave love is inspired by those games directly stimulating our reward centres, "I am obtaining something!! I done good!!"

[Despatche]

Goddammit, after reading my links I just realized that he was the CHARACTER designer, not the game designer. So, I'm taking back the Ikeda part. Somehow I always assumed that he was the designer of Ketsui. Oh well, I need to work on my reading comprehension.

From what I understand, most CAVE games were programmed by Tsuneki Ikeda and Takashi Ichimura together, with Shinobu Yagawa (and whoever else) doing his (their) own thing. It seems one or the other of the duo does the basic gameplay design of any given game; EOJ claimed that Ichimura designed Ketsui (and Deathsmiles).

[PAPER/ARTILLERY]

It's interesting actually how much Cave love is inspired by those games directly stimulating our reward centres, "I am obtaining something!! I done good!!"

That's pretty much why videogames generally are so popular isn't it? RPGs certainly work on the same premise. Work, reward, more work, bigger reward, repeat.

[Blinge]

Of course, yeah. But what other examples are so instant and visually obvious as gems/honeycomb/stars being vacuumed up by a ship..

[Teufel_in_Blau]

From what I understand, most CAVE games were programmed by Tsuneki Ikeda and Takashi Ichimura together, with Shinobu Yagawa (and whoever else) doing his (their) own thing. It seems one or the other of the duo does the basic gameplay design of any given game; EOJ claimed that Ichimura designed Ketsui (and Deathsmiles).

Ah, thank you. Yes, I remember that post on the old CAVE forum, somehow I though he meant Tomoharu Saito. I must have mixed them in my mind. I also remember he wrote that Mamoru Furukawa was responsible for Ibara Kuro, he even made a thread about it: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=16011

Mobygames says he also was involved in the development of Mushi: http://www.mobygames.com/developer/shee ... Id,380650/

Not much else though, such a mysterious person...

lol, he has a twitter account: https://twitter.com/furukawa_cave

[KAI]

Cause the music. Cave saved the VGM industry.

[Kollision]

For me it all comes down to one word: INTENSITY

Scoring = Rush, that's also something that Cave used to excel at

R.I.P. €AVE

[Elaphe]

Best graphics ever with low res bitmaps, with amazing level of detail and superb designs. Perfect playability, with the invention of the danmaku concept and the focus movement.

[Skykid]

It's interesting actually how much Cave love is inspired by those games directly stimulating our reward centres, "I am obtaining something!! I done good!!"

This is exactly the process around which Nintendo base their formula.

[ptoing]

It's interesting actually how much Cave love is inspired by those games directly stimulating our reward centres, "I am obtaining something!! I done good!!"

This is exactly the process around which Nintendo base their formula.

And casual games like Peggle and Candy Crush. Or stuff like WoW.

Also the game where this started properly I would say is Guwange, but also earlier in stuff like DDP a bit, and Dangun Feveron. I would argue that Cave were among the people who pioneered this in videogames, together with Takumi.

[casualcoder]

You can actually see the bullets.