Environmental hazards/weapon systems question

[Squire Grooktook]

I'm not one of the people to complain about the general lack of physical obstacles in bullet hell genres, I genuinely like both styles of level design and understand the whole "the bullets are environmental hazards" etc. etc.

But I'm curious, from a game design standpoint, why do so many bullet hell shooters, manic shooters, and vertical scrollers in general completely eschew environmental hazards and the more intricate weapon/power up systems generally found in horizontal scrollers? I can understood a few or even the majority of bullet hell shooters and verts going the "nothing to crash into and you select your weapon at the beginning and keep it for the whole game" set up, since in many ways its pretty intuitive, but I'm curious why games that actually do mess around with these concepts seem to be in an overwhelming minority.

Environmental hazards can definitely work. All of Treasures small hitbox games used them (RSG, Ikaruga, Gradius V). Jamestown did them adequately enough. That one Touhou fangame did them. And games like Ibara, RSG, Gradius V, Flame Zapper Kotsujin, have had multiple weapons or switchable weapons.

So is there some reason why it's generally hard to pull off, or do players and developers just no longer see those kinds of mechanics and obstacles as interesting anymore?

[trap15]

Because they're generally not fun.

[EmperorIng]

Because they're generally not fun.

It's easy to say "generally" but Gradius IV's volcano stage rocks and Gradius V's levels in general kick ass. Satazius' own volcano level is good for a laugh.

With bullet hell I think it's because generally huge spreads of bullets already require intense concentration as it is - by Mars Matrix you already are eschewing the whole "collide into enemies = death" think JUST to focus on the bullets. In Gradius you are constantly factoring both the environment and the bullets (well in the levels that have lots of terrain), and the best games have tense negotiations of bullet and env. hazards.

Modern games with environmental hazards are few and far between (Strania?), and I think it probably reflects most developers' inability to do anything interesting with them, and the difficulty of combining bullet-dodging with terrain management.

I think it's high time for the stuff to come back into vogue.

[Squire Grooktook]

Of the 4 small hitbox games I mentioned that have walls, IMO the only one I'd conced to be generally not fun is Jamestown. Mostly because it doesn't really change the way you play that much.

Also the walls are basically the best part of RSG imo.

I think it's high time for the stuff to come back into vogue.

Personally I'd like to see something like Ginga Force meets RSG. Stripped down fast dodging with some gimmicky boss attacks and stage hazards. Would be pretty fun IMO.

[ACSeraph]

Environmental hazards and elaborate weapon systems make old hori games feel more like an adventure to me than bullet hells do. That's probably why I find myself gravitating to them so much. But I agree with Trap, they can also be quite frustrating. I really like how in Deathsmiles or Otomedius X you get the physical environments that need to be navigated, but minus the frustration of getting killed by them. Now if only someone would make a game using that Philosophy that was actually cool...

Also I hadn't really thought about it, but Caladrius' elaborate weapon system might be one of the things that draws me so much towards that particular tate game.

[Captain]

enviromental hazards just don't work for verticals (sure theres like 2 expections).

Weapon systems though...are made out of awesome.

[Despatche]

those horizontal shooters are giant exceptions compared to shmups in general. it just happens to be that the concepts of "environmental hazards" and "weapon systems" are generally considered to be traits of a specific game or two, not the entire genre; many of these horizontal shooters try to emulate r-type. bullet hell games having selectable characters is similarly just a stereotype.

there's nothing really "intricate" about switching weapons, and many non-horizontal shmups have such a system anyway. most of the games that have switching weapons are not well-designed enough for there to be anything but false choice, and a number of games encourage sticking to one weapon for the whole game anyway. cave didn't dumb anything down, but simply split the system up, so they could try to balance the idea of "multiple weapons" better; everyone else simply copies them.

environmental hazards are as fun as the rest of the game's design, unless they're outright broken which is rare. also, they work as well in a vertical game as they do in a horizontal one, the execution's pretty much the same... the thing is that r-type is not vertical, and that imagefight is not r-type.

[Squire Grooktook]

Yeah I have to agree with Despatche.

Except for the part about weapon switching. There's no reason for it to be a "false choice" other than poor design. In theory, multiple weapons and such concepts can lead to greater variety of choices and options in forming a route. Definitely have been some games that made a lot out of this concept.

[LordHypnos]

With bullet hell I think it's because generally huge spreads of bullets already require intense concentration as it is - by Mars Matrix you already are eschewing the whole "collide into enemies = death" think JUST to focus on the bullets.

I tend to think that this is the reason why this is the case, for better or worse.

FWIW, Mars Matrix has interactive environments in a few spots, even though they can't kill you (rocks and shit), you can use them to block you from bullets, or to reflect bullets off of for cubes. Rob tends to do the latter a lot in the superplays I've seen of him.

Also, interestingly, Fast Striker (yeah, NG:DEV.TEAM shit) uses a lot of stage hazards in spite of having a lot of places where there's danmaku type patterns, and having a small hitbox. I think some of the environmental stuff doesn't actually kill you, but what does (like the lasers in stage 3) will make you lose all your shields (which are the equivalent of smart bombs) instead of killing you, unless you're out of shields. That's also what happens when you collide with enemies, but bullets just kill you. Game also has bidirectional shooting like Elemental Master. I think it's executed quite well in Fast Striker, and I don't mind it at all.

[Zaarock]

I really like how in Deathsmiles or Otomedius X you get the physical environments that need to be navigated, but minus the frustration of getting killed by them. Now if only someone would make a game using that Philosophy that was actually cool...

Personally I'd like to see something like Ginga Force meets RSG. Stripped down fast dodging with some gimmicky boss attacks and stage hazards. Would be pretty fun IMO.

Sounds like Strania? Even has a scoring system which really encourages using all weapons for Despatche Would love to see another game like that but both G.Rev and Treasure seem pretty dead now.

I don't like hellsinker's environmental hazards, instead of taking damage you bounce off walls and bigger enemies about the width of the character sprite. You have to avoid walls to not get bounced into bullets or too far away from enemies but it's sorta goofy. I think Jamestown had the same system?

I agree that weapon systems would be nice to see explored more. Some games might have badly working systems but that doesn't mean there isn't potential. There's a lot of doujin games that experiment with systems but most aren't polished in level design etc. in the way a commercial game would be.

It seems similar to rank-heavy games, they might be hard to balance properly but if done well the system can add a lot of variety to the game.

[Despatche]

strania did indeed make me happy.

Except for the part about weapon switching. There's no reason for it to be a "false choice" other than poor design. In theory, multiple weapons and such concepts can lead to greater variety of choices and options in forming a route. Definitely have been some games that made a lot out of this concept.

yes, it can turn out fine, but it rarely does is what i'm saying. the only game that ever really makes it work is r-type.

[Squire Grooktook]

strania did indeed make me happy.

Except for the part about weapon switching. There's no reason for it to be a "false choice" other than poor design. In theory, multiple weapons and such concepts can lead to greater variety of choices and options in forming a route. Definitely have been some games that made a lot out of this concept.

yes, it can turn out fine, but it rarely does is what i'm saying. the only game that ever really makes it work is r-type.

Well maybe it's subjective, but there are definitely more than R-Type that use it well.

Einhander (many weapons useful for both scoring and survival)
Axelay (some of the weapons are shit but generally a lot of fun, diverse, and useful ones)
Gradius (depends on the game, but generally does make a difference where and when you use laser vs double, and what you decide to pick up first etc.)
Radiant Silvergun (almost every weapon really useful in some way)

etc. That's just of the top of my head though.

[Kollision]

forget not about Thunder Force and its undeniable heritage

[Ghegs]

Environmental hazards, fuck yeah. Seems almost like a lost art nowadays. I am one to complain about lack of physical obstacles, I think they add much more personality to a stage than just having bullets do the same work.

[Despatche]

well, gradius was before r-type. my point is that r-type simply dominates this "subgenre" to most people. i mean einhander is totally influenced by r-type, no question there. and honestly, gradius design is kinda poor outside of gradius 1. rsg and ika do things pretty well though. not as familiar with axelay as i'd like to be, but it seems very interesting.

oh, but gradius is definitely in the "false choice" realm, even gradius 1; laser weapons almost always suck. doubles suck too, but they tend to be vital all the same. and then gaiden has really good doubles that make the okay-ish laser weapons look kinda sad, while gradius v pretty much makes laser the only real weapon in the game. sometimes i'd rather play scramble than grind away at the silliness that is gradiuseseseses ii, iii, and iv.

[Ed Oscuro]

Environmental hazards get a bit of a boost in horizontal games because the up-down axis is better represented generally, and unique ways of interacting with the environment as a result. Dropping bombs on things feels better in those games (think of In The Hunt, R-Type and Gradius, all the way back to Scramble). The ability to just land on things - at least three Irem games come to mind - is pretty cool too. Similar deal with moving about - I think Sorcer Striker / Kingdom Grandprix feel fine though, with a nice mix of some ship-ship collision and background hazards.

Obviously, the answer is more axonometric projection games. Best of both worlds, right?