Are there any TVs/Displays with pixel-perfect scaling?

[bobrocks95]

As much as I love my EDTV plasma, as time goes on I discover more and more problems with it. Thinking about the wonderful job the Wii U does with GBA games in its 6:1 scaling mode, I was curious if there have been 1080p displays at any point that do pixel-perfect scaling instead of a mandatory stretch to 1080p?

Something like a 2:1 scale for 480p sources to show a 1280x960 window in the middle of the screen, and a 4:1 scale to do roughly the same for 240p content.

Do any displays exist that do this? Maybe it's a common thing I just haven't heard about before?

If not, are there external scalers that can output a 1080p signal with the content windowboxed (both pillarboxed and letterboxed from what I understand) in the center with the same scaling applied?

[Fudoh]

Displays: no
Processors: quite a few.

[EmperorZelos]

framemeister?

[dayo]

I have a samsung 8000 serie and when i connect
A neo geo aes with the scart its full screen
And the image looks great i dont now if its
Stretch i think so but for a 117 cm screen it looks great

[Ed Oscuro]

There are some pro- and semi-pro monitors (some with VGA inputs) that do something similar to this, though I'm not sure exactly of the formats and signal types accepted. There definitely are some monitors which do a windowed (not necessarily mapped 2:1, but mapped 1:1 to middle pixels, for example) display of different sources, at user request.

[alamone]

A lot of NEC / Mitsubishi monitors have flexible scaling and zooming options, including pixel doubling and arbitrary zoom.

[Ed Oscuro]

Good to know of that. Fixed a typo in my post: I wrote "stretched 2:1" when I obviously meant "mapped 2:1," i.e. centered pixel-doubling (with borders on all sides if the signal doesn't match the vertical or horizontal resolution of the monitor).

[bobrocks95]

framemeister?

It looks like there's a Smart x2 manual scaling option that does this? Can you tweak the manual scaling for 240p material as well to get the same result but 4x as large? I'd be really grateful if anybody would be willing to post pictures of how this looks in 1080p.

Displays: no
Processors: quite a few.

I'm glad that's the case! Would you have a recommendation for a decently priced 480i/p processor that would do this? It's about all I'd need it to do really...

I have a samsung 8000 serie and when i connect
A neo geo aes with the scart its full screen
And the image looks great i dont now if its
Stretch i think so but for a 117 cm screen it looks great

I'm really sensitive to the lack of sharpness that comes with odd stretching, but I'm glad you're happy with your setup. Being in Europe and having TVs with SCART connectors probably helps a good deal

There are some pro- and semi-pro monitors (some with VGA inputs) that do something similar to this, though I'm not sure exactly of the formats and signal types accepted. There definitely are some monitors which do a windowed (not necessarily mapped 2:1, but mapped 1:1 to middle pixels, for example) display of different sources, at user request.

Yeah, my Samsung computer monitor will do 1:1 if you ask it to. I'd obviously prefer not to lose that many pixels from my display, but it usually looks pretty nice. Do you have any idea if there are recent-ish monitors that will do this? I'm trying my best to get away from older displays (which points to an external processor being the best solution probably) since I live in general fear of them dying.

A lot of NEC / Mitsubishi monitors have flexible scaling and zooming options, including pixel doubling and arbitrary zoom.

Doing a general look on ebay then looking up the models on the manufacturer's website, I've seen some professional NEC monitors that SEEM to have this feature, though it's not explicitly stated so I'm not entirely sure. Lots of aspect ratio and zoom options that might be able to achieve the effect, but considering their price I'm not sure I'd buy one just to find out...

[Fudoh]

It looks like there's a Smart x2 manual scaling option that does this? Can you tweak the manual scaling for 240p material as well to get the same result but 4x as large?

On the Framemeister the x1/x2 modes are based on already linedoubled signals, meaning you get 960p on a 1080p output when you choose x2. With x1 you get a 480p window on a 720p or 1080p output.

This said, I don't see what you gain by using integer scaling factors. The Framemeister does a very nice job scaling to 1080p, despite the odd scaling factor (240x2=480x2.25=1080).

[bobrocks95]

It looks like there's a Smart x2 manual scaling option that does this? Can you tweak the manual scaling for 240p material as well to get the same result but 4x as large?

On the Framemeister the x1/x2 modes are based on already linedoubled signals, meaning you get 960p on a 1080p output when you choose x2. With x1 you get a 480p window on a 720p or 1080p output.

This said, I don't see what you gain by using integer scaling factors. The Framemeister does a very nice job scaling to 1080p, despite the odd scaling factor (240x2=480x2.25=1080).

You're right, if I bought something as expensive and tailored as an XRGB, I might as well just use the excellent full 1080p scaling it has. I was hoping for a less expensive solution, so I thought integer scaling with a display or cheaper processor might be a way to achieve decent results with less cost.
If very few or hard to get displays, or more expensive processorsare the only way to achieve that, then it defeats my purpose.

[Ed Oscuro]

Integer scaling should be available on e.g. the newer Sony / other brand grading monitors, for viewing non-full HD signals for grading purposes.

This article gives some idea of the purposes and also of the challenges (nonsquare pixels = whoops) this approach faces.

The Planar PX2611w has a 1:1 mapping mode, but I'm not sure about the processing speed (even though it should be minimal) compared to a "native" image, or whether this is found on other/newer Planar models. I also believe that it's fiddly about what connections it will accept this in...it will resize PC VGA input according to user inputs, but I think that stretching via DVI is only possible from your video card.

[shmuppyLove]

I have a samsung 8000 serie and when i connect
A neo geo aes with the scart its full screen
And the image looks great i dont now if its
Stretch i think so but for a 117 cm screen it looks great

Given that the AES native res is 320×224, and your TV is 1920x1080, yes, it's stretched. Also the aspect ratio would be completely out of whack.

[bobrocks95]

Integer scaling should be available on e.g. the newer Sony / other brand grading monitors, for viewing non-full HD signals for grading purposes.

This article gives some idea of the purposes and also of the challenges (nonsquare pixels = whoops) this approach faces.

The Planar PX2611w has a 1:1 mapping mode, but I'm not sure about the processing speed (even though it should be minimal) compared to a "native" image, or whether this is found on other/newer Planar models. I also believe that it's fiddly about what connections it will accept this in...it will resize PC VGA input according to user inputs, but I think that stretching via DVI is only possible from your video card.

Those new Sony's are about a fortune and a half. I think it would actually be cheaper for me to take multiple Uni classes to teach myself how to make the linedoubler I want. I guess I'll be sticking with my EDTV for now and just live with all its problems until I cave one day and buy a Framemeister.

[Ed Oscuro]

I think it would actually be cheaper for me to take multiple Uni classes to teach myself how to make the linedoubler I want. I guess I'll be sticking with my EDTV for now and just live with all its problems until I cave one day and buy a Framemeister.

Indeed! And you probably still have a bit of life in that old EDTV yet if you keep it in good shape and have the ability to replace easy part failures.

[bobrocks95]

Indeed! And you probably still have a bit of life in that old EDTV yet if you keep it in good shape and have the ability to replace easy part failures.

Yeah, it's still got plenty of hours left, I just keep noticing problems that are starting to pile up. The Dreamcast through VGA has huge horizontal streaks in high contrast areas (can't test if it's the input or the cables until a get a Component to VGA transcoder to test something else), there's the usual funfetti effect up close on grays, it somehow manages to emit interference that enters cables and goes right back into it... It's just kinda exasperating.

[TillDawn]

Yeah, my Samsung computer monitor will do 1:1 if you ask it to. I'd obviously prefer not to lose that many pixels from my display, but it usually looks pretty nice. Do you have any idea if there are recent-ish monitors that will do this? I'm trying my best to get away from older displays (which points to an external processor being the best solution probably) since I live in general fear of them dying.

I have the Dell U2413 (native resolution 1920x1200). You can switch it to 1:1 mapping (there is no integer scaling like 1:2 or 1:3 though) and it will show a pixel perfect image in the center of the screen; in that mode, 480p is pretty tiny but razor sharp, of course. The monitor itself is great since it is 16:10, has a nice IPS panel and, most importantly, has a low input lag when set to game mode.

[quickbunnie]

I have the Dell U2413 (native resolution 1920x1200). You can switch it to 1:1 mapping (there is no integer scaling like 1:2 or 1:3 though) and it will show a pixel perfect image in the center of the screen; in that mode, 480p is pretty tiny but razor sharp, of course. The monitor itself is great since it is 16:10, has a nice IPS panel and, most importantly, has a low input lag when set to game mode.

Yeah, the Dell Ultrasharps that have HDMI and component inputs are great for this. I have a U2711 and I really like doing 1:1 for some sources (mine is 16:9 but its large enough that the aspect ratio doesn't bother me). They are pricey, but the color accuracy and overall display quality are typically excellent.

As TillDawn says, sadly, 1:1 is the only option. So a 480p source on a 1080p panel will only take up a little less than 25% of the total area, centered on the screen. My panel is a 1440p, so a 720p signal should scale perfectly for 1:2 (1:4?), but I've tested this, and it does do a very simple neighboring pixel interpolation on full screen, which I personally preferred it wouldn't do. Sit a few feet back and I stop noticing so much, but I'd much prefer sharp edges.

[bobrocks95]

Yeah, the Dell Ultrasharps that have HDMI and component inputs are great for this. I have a U2711 and I really like doing 1:1 for some sources (mine is 16:9 but its large enough that the aspect ratio doesn't bother me). They are pricey, but the color accuracy and overall display quality are typically excellent.

As TillDawn says, sadly, 1:1 is the only option. So a 480p source on a 1080p panel will only take up a little less than 25% of the total area, centered on the screen. My panel is a 1440p, so a 720p signal should scale perfectly for 1:2 (1:4?), but I've tested this, and it does do a very simple neighboring pixel interpolation on full screen, which I personally preferred it wouldn't do. Sit a few feet back and I stop noticing so much, but I'd much prefer sharp edges.

Unfortunately according to Wikipedia that's a common practice. Though no reference was included it's not hard to believe:

In theory, some resolutions could work well, if they are exact multiples of smaller image sizes. For example, a 1600×1200 LCD could display an 800×600 image well, as each of the pixels in the image could be represented by a block of four on the larger display, without interpolation. Since 800×600 is an integer factor of 1600×1200, scaling should not adversely affect the image. But in practice, most monitors apply a smoothing algorithm to all smaller resolutions, so the quality still suffers for these "half" modes.

Which is really a shame, since I can't think of a reason to add additional blur to a perfectly linedoubled image...

[TillDawn]

Unfortunately according to Wikipedia that's a common practice. Though no reference was included it's not hard to believe:

In theory, some resolutions could work well, if they are exact multiples of smaller image sizes. For example, a 1600×1200 LCD could display an 800×600 image well, as each of the pixels in the image could be represented by a block of four on the larger display, without interpolation. Since 800×600 is an integer factor of 1600×1200, scaling should not adversely affect the image. But in practice, most monitors apply a smoothing algorithm to all smaller resolutions, so the quality still suffers for these "half" modes.

Which is really a shame, since I can't think of a reason to add additional blur to a perfectly linedoubled image...

I guess there is no particular reason to do this when the picture can be scaled by an integer factor. However, when this is not the case (e.g. scale a 720p image to 1080p) this algorithm makes more sense. There probably is only the one scaling algorithm which is used during all scaling/mapping operations.

[nasty_wolverine]

I guess there is no particular reason to do this when the picture can be scaled by an integer factor. However, when this is not the case (e.g. scale a 720p image to 1080p) this algorithm makes more sense. There probably is only the one scaling algorithm which is used during all scaling/mapping operations.

Cant it be done driver side? I know that nvidia drivers provide a few options how the image should be scaled to fit the LCD native resolution, doing the scaling in the GPU.

[bobrocks95]

Cant it be done driver side? I know that nvidia drivers provide a few options how the image should be scaled to fit the LCD native resolution, doing the scaling in the GPU.

That might be true, but it doesn't do much for gaming since it only applies to your computer's output, and you're not going to run into many PC games that you can't get running at your monitor's native res.

I guess there is no particular reason to do this when the picture can be scaled by an integer factor. However, when this is not the case (e.g. scale a 720p image to 1080p) this algorithm makes more sense. There probably is only the one scaling algorithm which is used during all scaling/mapping operations.

I wouldn't imagine it would be that difficult to detect a half-resolution and disable the smoothing algorithm. It sounds like laziness on the manufacturer's part, assuming that people won't care or won't be feeding those specific resolutions into the monitors.

[quickbunnie]

I wouldn't imagine it would be that difficult to detect a half-resolution and disable the smoothing algorithm. It sounds like laziness on the manufacturer's part, assuming that people won't care or won't be feeding those specific resolutions into the monitors.

Yeah, as with most things corporate, even a simple change as this was probably determined that it wouldn't increase sales, thus not worth doing.

C'est la vie.

[TillDawn]

I wouldn't imagine it would be that difficult to detect a half-resolution and disable the smoothing algorithm. It sounds like laziness on the manufacturer's part, assuming that people won't care or won't be feeding those specific resolutions into the monitors.

I agree. Come to think of it, it should not be too difficult to design a HDMI2HDMI "mapping circuit" that works exactly like that: take one of those HDMI resolutions suitable for integer scaling and construct an appropriate output image (1080p or 1200p), or am I mistaken? Essentially, something like a HDMI line doubler that not only works as a doubler but also as a tripler, quadrupler or even quintupler.

[Fudoh]

Of course that's possible.

[bobrocks95]

I agree. Come to think of it, it should not be too difficult to design a HDMI2HDMI "mapping circuit" that works exactly like that: take one of those HDMI resolutions suitable for integer scaling and construct an appropriate output image (1080p or 1200p), or am I mistaken? Essentially, something like a HDMI line doubler that not only works as a doubler but also as a tripler, quadrupler or even quintupler.

The only major difficulty would be putting something like 960p inside of a 1080p window so the display doesn't try to scale it any more, and even that probably wouldn't be too hard for someone knowledgeable in computer or electrical engineering. It all depends on an enthusiast with the knowledge coming along and deciding they want to make something that specific/niche.

[Fudoh]

The signal would be 1080p of course. You would basically fill the empty lines with black (or any other color of your choice). It's really easy to do. There's just nobody out there asking for something like that, so it won't happen.

[dayo]

oke maybe its wide but for only a neo geo aes with a rgb scart not a upscaler i think the image looks oke .

[shmuppyLove]

Too wide!

Try running your widescreen computer monitor at something like 1280x1024 or 1600x1200 and tell me it looks good

Switch to 4:3 mode, it will look better. Also your horizontal/vertical scrolling will be screwed up because of the incorrect aspect, so something like Shock Troopers that scrolls in 8 directions will look terrible in motion.

4:3 isn't perfect, IIRC Neo Geo was odd because of the 320x224 available pixels, I think it only used 308x224 (maybe to account for overscan I dunno), so you end up with something a bit different than 4:3, but it's certainly closer than 16:9.

[Fudoh]

4:3 isn't perfect, IIRC Neo Geo was odd because of the 320x224 available pixels

but NG wasn't programmed with square pixels in mind. Anything from NES and SNES (256x240 and 256x224) to CPS2 (384x224) was supposed to be displayed in true 4:3, including the NG/MVS.

[LEGENOARYNINLIA]

oke maybe its wide but for only a neo geo aes with a rgb scart not a upscaler i think the image looks oke .

Even Terry was brought down to his knees because you decided to run his game in widescreen...