Fudoh's ode to old display technology

[Fudoh]

The menus can by shaky when you got no active source running, but they should be stable once the monitor displays a source signal.

If you get green video you might be running the set on component instead of RGB.

[Ed Oscuro]

Heh, I just realized that the picture wobble at the top of my 20L5 is there in RGB input mode without anything connected...hmm. Reddish tint on startup which clears up after a bit too. Maybe I ought to get this serviced...

To answer the questions: When starting up the 20L5, the menu might shake a little bit (slowly, and up and down about a pixel is what I get). It does settle after a while.

If the screen displays RGB when you start, then it's set to RGB.

To change the 20L5 to RGB mode, hit MENU, DOWN four times, and then you're at the RGB/COMP select menu, so hit Enter there and the buttons to change it.

Green and shaky sounds like a classic case of it being set to component instead of RGB while inputting an RGB signal (or vice versa, I forget).

[FriendofSonic]

I did notice it was set to component. But I did set it to RGB, and I'm still getting it. Not sure if it's my BNC-->RGB cables, since I got the version with the sync striker built in.

[Ed Oscuro]

So it displays RGB on startup now? If it still says component, you didn't really select RGB (make sure to hit Enter before backing out of the menu, I think).

The color should be fixed at least. Once that's done, the second thing you have to do is hit the EXT SYNC button to grab sync from the cable's fourth lead.

[FriendofSonic]

So it displays RGB on startup now? If it still says component, you didn't really select RGB (make sure to hit Enter before backing out of the menu, I think).

The color should be fixed at least. Once that's done, the second thing you have to do is hit the EXT SYNC button to grab sync from the cable's fourth lead.

Oh, no, it definitely is RGB. I turned on the option on the menu to display the input info as well-- it says RGB No Sync (even though I have the Ext Sync button hit) Not sure why it'd say no sync. Still getting a very green and very distorted picture.

But the menu thing shaking while an input running turned out to be true--- it stopped shaking as far as I can see, so that's a relief.

[Ed Oscuro]

So you're sure you have an RGB cable and source, and not component?

[FriendofSonic]

So you're sure you have an RGB cable and source, and not component?

Yep, I have a SNES modded to output RGB, but to be sure I also tested Genesis, which does RGB natively.

[russ]

Just picked up a Sony BVM-20F1U, but I'm having trouble getting a stable image with my setup. I've got an RGB modded NES with a component converter that I'm trying to hook up, but I get a really warped image. For my input, I select "Component -> YUV SMPTE/EBU-N10", tried both EXT and INT sync mode, but no luck. Worth noting that on INT sync, the monitor emits more noise than usual. Here are some screenshots, including ones showing it working on my plasma TV for comparison:

http://imgur.com/a/WXofw

Does anyone have some kind advice for me?

edit: just noticed the obvious green and blue cables swapped in the pic of the connectors, but I just hooked it up real quick for the picture; the other images were taken with the right connections.

[Fudoh]

And you're sure it was properly hooked up when you took the pics ? What about the SMB3 start screen photo you took ?
On a component signal, sync is included in the green "Y" signal, so until you connect this to the Y input with sync set to internal, you cannot get a stable picture. You can pull Pb and Pr to get a b/w screen. Makes it easier to test.

PS: why go for a mod including a component encoder when you got a RGB monitor ?

[BazookaBen]

PS: why go for a mod including a component encoder when you got a RGB monitor ?

This is my question. You should hook your NES up directly without any noise-adding transcoders.

[spaceape]

Sorry to barge in here like this but i have a few questions regarding RGB/Component.

I recently bought the Hanzo for my dreamcast and a VGA to Component converter (http://tinyurl.com/qdd7wgh) to be able to use it with my Sony BVM-A20F1M and BKM-68X. Was i correct in doing so or should i get an simple VGA to RGB cable for the Hanzo?

What's the difference between RGB and Component?

[Ed Oscuro]

RGBs and YPbPr are totally different. RGBs needs no introduction, but YPbPr carries: Y (luma), Pb (blue - luma) Pr (red - luma). It is pretty straightforward to convert from RGB to component and there are some cheap boxes on eBay which everybody keeps recommending (I will probably pick one up at some point).

VGA to RGB or component is different, not least because of scan rate differences. VGA is usually 31KHz, and while it's still an analog RGB signal, it needs to be scan rate converted (or something!) to be usable on a 15KHz display like a standard television or a PVM.

The BKM-68X specs suggest that it just allows the use of different resolutions, but all still at 15KHz.

Somebody who knows the Dreamcast well will have to chime in - I think that regular RGB cables are possible, but that not all games will support them.

[Fudoh]

The BKM-68X used in a A Series BVM accepts 480i, 480p, 720p and 1080i. Format has to be Component or RGBs or RGsB.

For your Dreamcast you either have to:

- transcode VGA into component
- convert RGBHV into RGBs or
- convert RGBHV into RGsB.

The problem with the converter you bought is that it applies processing. This hurts the quality and probably introduces a little lag. The three methods mentioned above are all equal in quality (100%, no loss). RGBHV to RGBs can be done using a passive sync combiner circuit, while RGBHV to RGsB can be done using an Extron RGB interface.

[spaceape]

The BKM-68X used in a A Series BVM accepts 480i, 480p, 720p and 1080i. Format has to be Component or RGBs or RGsB.

For your Dreamcast you either have to:

- transcode VGA into component
- convert RGBHV into RGBs or
- convert RGBHV into RGsB.

The problem with the converter you bought is that it applies processing. This hurts the quality and probably introduces a little lag. The three methods mentioned above are all equal in quality (100%, no loss). RGBHV to RGBs can be done using a passive sync combiner circuit, while RGBHV to RGsB can be done using an Extron RGB interface.

Thank you so much. Since watching one of Adam Koralik's "Keep Dreaming" youtube videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OR1m83NbHs

I found i could use a converter for the BVM. The converter i have do have multiple modes. The lowest of which is 480p so that's not too bad. It was the only one i could find anywhere on the net so didn't have any to choose from.

So the first option you mention is a simple VGA to Component cable? The Second option im not sure what is.

Which would you suggest?

You're the best. Thank you for your help.

[spaceape]

RGBs and YPbPr are totally different. RGBs needs no introduction, but YPbPr carries: Y (luma), Pb (blue - luma) Pr (red - luma). It is pretty straightforward to convert from RGB to component and there are some cheap boxes on eBay which everybody keeps recommending (I will probably pick one up at some point).

VGA to RGB or component is different, not least because of scan rate differences. VGA is usually 31KHz, and while it's still an analog RGB signal, it needs to be scan rate converted (or something!) to be usable on a 15KHz display like a standard television or a PVM.

The BKM-68X specs suggest that it just allows the use of different resolutions, but all still at 15KHz.

Somebody who knows the Dreamcast well will have to chime in - I think that regular RGB cables are possible, but that not all games will support them.

Thanks. Oh I hope my BVM will do 480p at 31khz or else i'll be forced to do 480i at 15khz.

[Fudoh]

The lowest of which is 480p so that's not too bad.

I know how it looks. I would say it's ok on your next best HDTV set, but with a monitor like that you should not settle for anything not perfect.

So the first option you mention is a simple VGA to Component cable?

no. Option #1 is a transcoder, e.g. http://www.ebay.com/itm/RCA-VGA-HGTV-VG ... 3f32e5f5c6

Option #2/3 is a sync interface, e.g. http://www.ebay.com/itm/EXTRON-RGB109xi ... 5afe0531ed

If DC is your only VGA source I would recommend using a passive sync combiner. Beharius wanted to offer something like this for the Hanzo anyway. Isn't it available yet ?

Of course your BVM will do 480p.

[spaceape]

The lowest of which is 480p so that's not too bad.

I know how it looks. I would say it's ok on your next best HDTV set, but with a monitor like that you should not settle for anything not perfect.

So the first option you mention is a simple VGA to Component cable?

no. Option #1 is a transcoder, e.g. http://www.ebay.com/itm/RCA-VGA-HGTV-VG ... 3f32e5f5c6

Option #2/3 is a sync interface, e.g. http://www.ebay.com/itm/EXTRON-RGB109xi ... 5afe0531ed

If DC is your only VGA source I would recommend using a passive sync combiner. Beharius wanted to offer something like this for the Hanzo anyway. Isn't it available yet ?

Of course your BVM will do 480p.

The Kenzei will be a good choice for me perhaps. http://www.assemblergames.com/forums/sh ... e-to-order (has RGBs output)

Thank you for the links.

[Ed Oscuro]

Hmm, I didn't know (or forgot) that BVM's scanning frequencies were 15-45KHz.

Too bad they're not true multisync monitors, so not of much use dealing with the various resolutions out of X68000 and similar machines.

[Fudoh]

The Kenzei will be a good choice for me perhaps.

yes, but I remember seeing an announcement for a cable for the Hanzo at some point. It's really just a $1 circuit inside a connector, nothing special.

@Ed: 31khz from a X68k should be fine as long as you convert the sync to RGBs or RGsB first. 24khz doesn't work, because the Sonys are no real multi-sync monitors, but basically just offer a limited number of fixed frequencies.

[Ed Oscuro]

Interesting idea, Fudoh. 24KHz is reportedly rarely useful on the X68000 series, so if I could get one cable that would work for 15KHz and 31KHz, that'd be grand. I will be keeping the old NEC MultiSync PC monitor though - 31KHz only (as far as I know) but just a very simple X68000 -> VGA adapter works fine.

[spaceape]

The Kenzei will be a good choice for me perhaps.

yes, but I remember seeing an announcement for a cable for the Hanzo at some point. It's really just a $1 circuit inside a connector, nothing special.

Okay but i stink at anything diy related. So i'll happily pay a little for someone to do the work for me.

[ozzyzak]

Was hoping I could get a quick pointer in the right direction. See the below picture?



I'm running Genesis -> Scart cable -> Bandridge switch -> Scart to 4 BNC w/ breakout audio -> BVM-20F1U

I've also tried running a SNES and a SMS through the same setup and I get roughly the same thing across all consoles. I've been researching all day and poking at this thing until I feel I may go insane.

I'm not asking anyone to do my work for me, but could someone help me at least start ruling out some things? I figure it could either be the cable plugging into the TV or the SCART switch. I do happen to know that all of these consoles work when I plug them into other displays and all cables were purchased recently from Retro Console Accessories. Am I missing something simple?

-

[BazookaBen]

^how do they look with composite or s-video? If it looks the same then it's a monitor issue.

[niall]

Sync looks to be the issue. I haven't played Sonic much, so if those colours look correct to you then it's just sync which is the problem.

If you've got a multimeter you could try taking measurements of the Sync output on the BVM, and double-check RGB as well?

[Fudoh]

@ozzyzak: my first guess would be that your connection cable from the switch to the monitor is wired in the wrong direction or missing some essential ground connections.

[FriendofSonic]

I'm glad Dreamcast discussion got brought up in here, because I was curious how I'd get VGA to hookup to my PVM. Good to know...

Does anyone have any suggestions for a cool 2.1 setup?

[Taiyaki]

Hello,

My first post on this forum. I'm very new to the entire pro line crt's like the bvm's and am not sure how the connections work. From what I do understand each module only works for one signal like component or vga while another works for composite, is that correct? What about S-video would that work on the module for composite?

Secondly from what I gather every unused connection should be closed up with 75 ohm terminators to assure proper functionality with consoles? Does this mean on a module say I only have one console plugged in, I should close up every other connection on that module?

Third question is, can one use a high end crt like this on a power surge with consoles etc all together like one would any other tv (of course I mean if one only uses the tv and one console at a time)?

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

[Fudoh]

The standard connection on the classic BVMs (and on the D-series BVMs) is a combined component/RGBs input. There are no dedicated composite or s-video connections (neither on the stock board nor on any additional boards), but you can buy decoder boards, which allow you to connect composite or s-video (depending on the board) to all available inputs.

The unused loop-through outputs are supposed to by terminated, not the inputs.

[Taiyaki]

Thank you very much Fudoh. I have two questions based on what you said.

1. If I get the decoder module for S-video will I be able to hook up a passive switch box with 4 ports on it without any issues?

2. If one of the connections on that s-video switch box is a composite will that still run on the S-video decoder module or does composite require it's own dedicated decoder module?

[Fudoh]

1) I don't see why not.
2) some decoder boards (e.g. the popular 21D board) only has a composite decoder, but as far as I can tell all s-video enabled boards can do composite as well. If you run both signals through the same switch, you might have to switch between composite and s-video in the monitor's menus though.