Two Tribes could use shmup player feedback for its new game!

[Special World]

People here are extremely upset about Sine Mora. Don't worry about it. Make the game you're trying to make, and make it as well as you possibly can.

[murquiel]

I think, one of the more accessible shmups is Pop N' Twinbee and Axelay on the SNES. (Note: If you die in that Twinbee game, despite having a life meter, you're automatically sent to the continue/insert credit countdown screen, so you effectively are only allowed to die once and iirc, there's hardly any-to-no health regain.)

Though I think Collo should also try the doujin/indie shmups as well. Probably needs to try Reflex, eXceed 3rd: Jade Penetrate, Fairy Wars and probably Acceleration of Suguri X-Edition?

(I think Jamestown is a bad example to play from. Astebreed, though an indie game too, is well presented, but has some serious mechanics problems (health regen and cheesing the entire game on the blade weapon). If you actually die in Astebreed, you're kicked back to the very beginning of the game if you choose to 'retry'. )

Right now , Luftrausers is taking a beating on the forum on what not to do in a shmup here

[nasty_wolverine]

want game suggestions?

free stuff:
- Chorensha68k (old school gold)
- ABA games: Parsec47 (experimental caravan bullet hell)
- Kaikan (mix between old school and bullet hell, very good)
- Blue Wish Resurrection Plus (bullet hell, THE gateway drug to bullet hells)

Doujins
- Hellsinker (cross between bullet hell, visual novel and LSD trip simulator)
- Touhou series (little girls shooting down littles girls with additive blended bullets)
- Alltynex series (excellent games, first is more old school, second is bullet hell, third has awesome replay camera)

Console
- R-type Delta (all time classic memorizer)
- Gradius Gaiden (again, classic)
- Recca (crack cocaine for the NES)

Arcade
- Batsugun (the grandfather of all bullet hells)
- Dodonpachi series (THE DANMAKU game)
- Raizing Battle series [Battle Garegga, Armed Police Batrider, Battle Bakraid] (if you want to spend years with your shmups and still discover new things all the time)

if you really want to get into shmups, i suggest start with chorensha68k, BWR+ and Recca. Thats what i started with and got me interested in the genre, then I found R-type Delta and Dodonpachi and never looked back.

[mastermx]

I would also recommend you look at what sucks. I would recommend you check out the most vehemently hated shmups of this forum. Check out the euro shmups and any other STG that people might always poke fun at. Try to see why they receive so much hate, and to also identify typical mistakes devs make when they try to "innovate".

[DMC]

An interesting issue is that shmup is a genre that was developed and formed mainly by arcade conditions compared to most other home console/pc genres, and I guess that is the root to why most shmup fans reject games like Sine Mora whereas other console gamers seem to like them more.

arcade conditions for a commercially successful game (my interpretation):

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a. the average play run should be short so that lots of players will insert lots of coins in short time = more money.

b. controls and gameplay should be very intuitive because the average run is short so there is little time to learn the basics.

c. the goal and the appeal of the game should be very clear from the start so that you can immediately commit to it, because in the arcades you only pay per run, so when the first run is over, you can invest the next coin in any other game in the arcade center.

d. since the average run should be short, it should be very unusual that a single run is very long, therefore the total game time is quite short like 30-40min (I dont understand multiple loops from this perspetive) to stop a single credit from lasting too long.
And since the total game time from beginning to end is quite short, the game should be difficult to clear, so that you wanna play it again and again.

e. even if you have cleared it, there should be other incentives to play it again, hence hi scores.

f. arcade centers are gatherings for lots of people so gamers already meet for that reason alone, hence the game itself does not really require any online connection to be successful.

Console games on the other hand have very different conditions-

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a. the game should be long because you pay a large amount once and would expect to discover new things beyond the first 30min to get a bang for the buck. Continues make less sense here as you have payed for the whole game and a continue don't cost a thing.

b. controls can be very complex because the game is long so there is lots of time to learn it gradually.

c. goals and appeals do not need to be apparent from the very start, because you have already committed to the game by spending lots of money on it. Playing, say, an RPG for 3 hours until the gameplay or the story picks up is more acceptable here.

d. Since there is no need to force most runs to be short, there is less need to make the game very challenging. Forcing you to restart would be more frustrating here since you may be many hours into the game as it tends to be long. Thus, challenge is less required and more problematic here.

e. Because the games tend to be long and the player does not pay for additional runs, there is less need to provide additional incentives to play it again, hence less reliance on hi scores or other replay values.

f. home console gamers often sit alone in their home, it thus makes sense for the game to compensate that by connecting them online to each others.

I think Treasure's Radiant Silvergun for instance is more populare among your average hardcore console gamer than your average arcade gamer because the game has many attributes of a console game actually. It's quite unorthodox for an arcade STG.
I dont know where smartphone games fit here.

[Rozyrg]

I think the best place to aim is somewhere between the arcade and the console experience. Many of my personal favorites tend to be defanged (but not "easy") home versions of otherwise viciously difficult coin ops. For instance, I like the TG16/PC Engine version of R-Type quite a bit more than the actual arcade.

I think as long as the challenge is consistent enough, you don't necessarily need to crush the player into tiny pieces with ludicrously high difficulty. Making it curve up *too* slowly is another problem, though.

[murquiel]

Console games on the other hand have very different conditions- *snip*

DMC's description of console games fit certain doujin games. Off the top of my head, these ones follow console game conventions:

Akashicverse -Malicious Wake-
Hellsinker
Astebreed (due to control complexity)
Suguri series (Suguri, Acceleration 1 and 2, Sora, due to psuedo fighting game mechanics and porting it to a 1 player normal shmup condition + weapon loadouts in two of the games)

Most doujin games follow the arcade model.

[nasty_wolverine]

DMC's description of console games fit certain doujin games. Off the top of my head, these ones follow console game conventions:
Hellsinker
Akashicverse -Malicious Wake-

um, no.
- Both games are under an hour. (~45mins or lesser if you speed kill things)
- both games use the less than 4 buttons for gameplay. (HS has very simple controls, its the weapon system that can get complicated, AV -MW- seems complicated because of the fighter input commands, but fighters are arcades games)
- both have simple objectives (shoot everything)
- both are pretty difficult (its gonna take you a awhile to 1CC, HS has one continue only)
- both have obtuse scoring systems which take time to understand (i am guessing AV -MW- is more straight forward then HS)
- Both have no multiplayer (well duh!)

But i would add that these games are more avantgarde then any arcade shmups I have seen. It comes more from the visual and musical style of the games, and insertion of the not so common story. both the games were made to be different and as a statement that we dont need to stick to same old arcade conventions to the word, the systems can evolve and become complicated yet keeping the elements that make shmups what they are.

Both would be awesome in an arcade cab if they had real TATE modes.

A real console shmup would be Gradius V, its long, really long. You can earn continues RPG style on the number of hours you spend. But it still keeps the hardcore shooting action in place.

[ColloBollo]

Thanks for all the info guys! It's kinda overwhelming!

Let me give you an idea of what we're creating at Two Tribes.

We are making a hybrid platformer / shooter experience. The controls are twin-stick based and you have a rotatable auto-regenerating shield that disables while you shoot. It won't be like many of the shooter games you've mentioned, but I do want to understand things like having great bullet patterns and scoring mechanisms. So I am going to be playing a lot of your suggestions, keep 'm coming!

Thanks!

Collin

[GSK]

By "hybrid platformer/shooter" do you mean it switches between scrolling shooter stages and platforming stages, or do you mean it's a run-and-gun game in the vein of Contra, Gunstar Heroes, Turrican, etc? Honestly, it's hard to know what to recommend to you at this point, short of just dumping a huge STG history lesson on you, but that's really the sort of thing you'd want to internalise long before you start making a game, not during.

[ColloBollo]

You walk around and shoot stuff, so in that sense it's a bit like contra. But you get a lot more freedom of movement to walk and jump

[nasty_wolverine]

You walk around and shoot stuff, so in that sense it's a bit like contra.

its a run n gun... top down or side scroller?

[ColloBollo]

You walk around and shoot stuff, so in that sense it's a bit like contra.

its a run n gun... top down or side scroller?

Side scroller.

[nasty_wolverine]

Side scroller.

are trying to incorporate danmaku style patterns and a shmup scoring mechanic???

[ColloBollo]

Side scroller.

are trying to incorporate danmaku style patterns and a shmup scoring mechanic???

A lot of it is open at this point, but danmaku style patterns are too much, that's for sure

[nasty_wolverine]

well not really, you can have slow but sparse patterns, provided the player has enough mobility to succesfully avoid them. you already have a sheild mechanic in the game, take a look at mars matrix and giga wing at how they use it in two ways, one to survive (as a pretty powerful bomb), the other way to use in short burst to score more.

modern shooters incorporate balanced scoring mechanics, i dont see how a side scroller cant incorporate something like a chain mechanic, or cancel lots of bullet on screen by tricks to score more, or a hyper mechanic.

The base point is though, doesnt matter what you do, as long as the game is FAIR and BALANCED we will play the shit out of it.

[GSK]

I'm struggling to even come up with examples of other (good) sidescrolling shooter/action games with twin-stick aiming, to tell the truth. I'm sure I'm overlooking something obvious.

[mastermx]

Hearing that your making a run and gun. You should be looking at Metal Slug. I don't know how a Danmaku patterns would work on a run and gun. This is starting to sound like a very unique game.

[murquiel]

A lot of it is open at this point, but danmaku style patterns are too much, that's for sure

Well, in any case, what you're probably looking for are three Touhou doujin games: Megamari, Koumajou Densetsu and Mystical Chain .

From what you're saying, you might want to also look at Metal Slug for the run-n-gun action and then Giga Wing, RefleX and Mars Matrix for how they make the player use shields.

[spadgy]

You walk around and shoot stuff, so in that sense it's a bit like contra.

its a run n gun... top down or side scroller?

Side scroller.

While it's a top-down rather than a side-scrolling run 'n' gun, do spend a little time with Neo Geo game Shock Troopers. It's a great balance of shmup and run 'n' gun with plenty going on, without relying on danmaku/bullet hell. It's pace, variety and systems make for an utterly accessible game that's also got enough to satisfy more serious/arcade-mindset play.

[nasty_wolverine]

While it's a top-down rather than a side-scrolling run 'n' gun, do spend a little time with Neo Geo game Shock Troopers. It's a great balance of shmup and run 'n' gun with plenty going on, without relying on danmaku/bullet hell. It's pace, variety and systems make for an utterly accessible game that's also got enough to satisfy more serious/arcade-mindset play.

+1, also rapid gunner on PS1, gunstar heroes on genesis, megaman x series..

[japtor]

Anyone remember Abuse? Kinda a twin stick platformer/shooter, albeit with mouse and keyboard (cause twin stick controls weren't much of a thing outside of a few arcade games back then).

Otherwise yeah I'd recommend Metal Slug, cause if nothing else it has that arcadey quality down. Hard but accessible, and brisk pacing without fluff.

Not to say things should always full on action though, knowing when to let up and give the player a break is important too, whether it be ends of levels, or bullet clearing events or other little breaks between onslaughts during levels. Too much continuous action can be fatiguing, too little is just boring.

Translating that stuff to a console experience can be hard just people's expectations, like Sin and Punishment 2 comes to mind (besides being another sorta twin stick/pointer shooter). It pretty plays like a long ass arcade game, simple controls and high action, and a scoring system, but is something like 4-6 hours long. And it was too short and/or too hard for the general population. Platinum Games stuff is similar in terms of sustained action over an extended period, albeit more complex to get into.

[trap15]

brisk pacing without fluff.

I wouldn't say that. MS3 is looooooong and full of awful filler in the last stage, and the rest of the series isn't really that short.

[japtor]

brisk pacing without fluff.

I wouldn't say that. MS3 is looooooong and full of awful filler in the last stage, and the rest of the series isn't really that short.

Heh, well compared to stuff like console games that try to pad things out and have various superfluous stuff that take away from the core gameplay.

[Doctor Butler]

Is this thread still alive?

[laxa88]

The last reply on the Google group discussions was 13th April... I don't think there's much going on aside the development, I suppose. Perhaps they'll come up with an update soon. :O

[ColloBollo]

We've been VERY busy guys. We announced the game last week. It's called RIVE and the announcement trailer is here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDRvMMpDwtk

Let me know what you think!

Thanks!

Collin

[mastermx]

The trailer was really cool. I need to see more gameplay though to really get a good idea about the game though.

[buko-studios]

Very intriguing trailer. We gave you a shout-out on the shmuproom!