Two Tribes could use shmup player feedback for its new game!

[ColloBollo]

Hi,

I'm Collin van Ginkel, designer at Two Tribes (see http://www.twotribes.com).

Our next game will have shooter elements and I'd love to get feedback from shmup fans during the development process.
If you feel like participating, feel free to sign up for the google group at:

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgr ... d-feedback

I'll update this forum from time to time on our progress, but for the details it's best to sign up for the group.

Thanks!

Collin

[GSK]

Signed up!

I must warn you, the tastes of this forum will probably run contrary to the sort of game you're making, but I'm sure our feedback will be nevertheless be useful.

(btw, didn't you guys originally announce this game for GBA or DS or something? I vaguely remember hearing about it a loooong time ago.)

[Kaspal]

Hi,

I'm Collin van Ginkel, designer at Two Tribes (see http://www.twotribes.com).

Our next game will have shooter elements and I'd love to get feedback from shmup fans during the development process.
If you feel like participating, feel free to sign up for the google group at:

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgr ... d-feedback

I'll update this forum from time to time on our progress, but for the details it's best to sign up for the group.

Thanks!

Collin

Sign up request sent.

[ColloBollo]

Signed up!

I must warn you, the tastes of this forum will probably run contrary to the sort of game you're making, but I'm sure our feedback will be nevertheless be useful.

(btw, didn't you guys originally announce this game for GBA or DS or something? I vaguely remember hearing about it a loooong time ago.)

Thanks for the warning I really want to know what makes the people here so enthusiastic about shooters and see if I can apply that to the game, even though we're making something original.

As for Rewind, yes that was a 3D on-rails Nintendo DS shooter idea we had. About nothing of the original idea remains, but the name has stuck around even though we altered the concept.

[DMC]

I really want to know what makes the people here so enthusiastic about shooters and see if I can apply that to the game, even though we're making something original

Just out of curiosity, why do you consider including shooter elements if you don't know why people are enthusiastic about them?
Boss ordered you to make a shooter?!

[Illyrian]

Request for membership sent!

[Oniros]

I really want to know what makes the people here so enthusiastic about shooters and see if I can apply that to the game, even though we're making something original

Just out of curiosity, why do you consider including shooter elements if you don't know why people are enthusiastic about them?
Boss ordered you to make a shooter?!

JokerAndHereWeGo.gif

[ColloBollo]

Just out of curiosity, why do you consider including shooter elements if you don't know why people are enthusiastic about them?
Boss ordered you to make a shooter?!

We're all bosses at Two Tribes these days

Actually what I meant to say is that I'd like to increase my knowledge of the genre and the people playing shooters. Having an enthusiastic group of people around me while I work on the design can only make the game better!

[XoPachi]

I've requested membership. 'u`

[murquiel]

Just out of curiosity, why do you consider including shooter elements if you don't know why people are enthusiastic about them?
Boss ordered you to make a shooter?!

We're all bosses at Two Tribes these days

Actually what I meant to say is that I'd like to increase my knowledge of the genre and the people playing shooters. Having an enthusiastic group of people around me while I work on the design can only make the game better!

I think you should try to play the games in the genre during your off-hours. Something that isn't Sine Mora/Radiant Silvergun/Ikaruga.

[japtor]

I bet the office could use a candy cab if you don't have one already. Stick in a decent shmup and play whenever you walk by for "research". Also make a leaderboard for an implied office high score competition.

[murquiel]

He should probably try a bunch of non-Cave-style doujin games as part of his research as well.

[ColloBollo]

I think you should try to play the games in the genre during your off-hours. Something that isn't Sine Mora/Radiant Silvergun/Ikaruga.

Actually I can play during on-hours too, so let the suggestions rip! What do you think I should play?

[Zerst]

I've submitted a request to join the group.

[Acid King]

I think you should try to play the games in the genre during your off-hours. Something that isn't Sine Mora/Radiant Silvergun/Ikaruga.

Actually I can play during on-hours too, so let the suggestions rip! What do you think I should play?

Dodonpachi, Armed Police Batrider, and Dragon Blaze. They're all emulated in MAME and are excellent games with unique scoring mechanics and gameplay styles, as well as different types of bullet patterns.

[GSK]

Actually I can play during on-hours too, so let the suggestions rip! What do you think I should play?

People are gonna recommend a whole ton of games for you to play (and probably a whole bunch of games to avoid, too) but what really matters is authenticity--in other words, if you don't enjoy or understand the games we recommend, don't front about it for the sake of trying to establish credibility in the eyes of hardcore fans, because people will call bullshit in a second.

[nasty_wolverine]

Actually I can play during on-hours too, so let the suggestions rip! What do you think I should play?

People are gonna recommend a whole ton of games for you to play (and probably a whole bunch of games to avoid, too) but what really matters is authenticity--in other words, if you don't enjoy or understand the games we recommend, don't front about it for the sake of trying to establish credibility in the eyes of hardcore fans, because people will call bullshit in a second.

and then sine mora will happen again...

[ColloBollo]

and then sine mora will happen again...

Can you elaborate on that?

[BareKnuckleRoo]

and then sine mora will happen again...

Specifically, Sine Mora is a game that looks pretty, but it's a horrible attempt at making a modern shmup where all of its fancy gameplay mechanics are half-assed ripoffs from more competently made games. The time = life thing was done in WispLisp (an amusing little kusoge) and honestly isn't much fun in either game, the slowdown mechanic is straight outta Omega Fighter/Espgaluda 1 & 2, the bullet reflect was better done in the Giga Wing series, you can't custom remap your controls, they didn't have autofire implemented properly (default speed is way too slow, there's no cap on how fast you can shoot via tapping so the game gets broken with a rapid controller, button tapping is supposed to be dead for a reason in modern shmups). Basically, it wanted to mesh together a ton of cool mechanics, but it stripped the special abilities of any scoring mechanics and even punishes your score for using any of them (unlike Omega Fighter/Espgaluda/Giga Wing where your abilities are integral to scoring well, but can be reserved for safety as well).

Early in the thread, people were seriously hyped for it (myself included) because it frankly looks gorgeous, and they namedropped games like Battle Garegga as inspiration, had a well-known composer do work for it (but his musical style does not work for the game, IMO). Around page 15, game gets released, and people lost their shit when they realized it was a mess. The game itself looks like they blew their budget on graphics with almost no time spent actually playtesting the thing since there's many sloppy elements they have that frankly you don't see in modern shmups. Case in point: in Espgaluda, when you go into slowdown, in addition to your meter at the top of the screen, a bar appears over your character that shows you exactly when your time slowdown power is about to run out. In Sine Mora, the slowdown meter is way at the top right of the screen only, a place that's extremely dangerous to shift your eyes to when you're dodging in a thick cloud of bullets.

Frankly nothing you make could be as bad as Sine Mora unless you also have rare 'joke' powerups that induce cutscene death via a falling piano. It's unique to Sine Mora and it's possibly the stupidest thing I've ever seen in a shmup.

[nasty_wolverine]

why sine mora is bad for your mental health

you forgot to mention they had a rep in the forums taking feedback from the "hardcore", who then suddenly disappeared when the shitpile was launched. So there was never a consideration for a patch to make the game playable. ideal HD gfx shovelware.

[ColloBollo]

Thanks for all the info guys! I appreciate it.

[mastermx]

One of the best ways to learn about the genre. Is to play a shmup to death. Try going for the one 1cc. And once you have it, go for score. Dependent on skill, this can take days or even months. But you start to understand why the people here love shmups so much. It's because the games are crafted with every little detail in mind, it has been play tested thoroughly. People think shmups are easy and fast to make. But the good shmups have had hours dedicated to their development and it shows.

I would say try and 1cc dodonpachi. After that, try all the suggestions on this forum. Play all atleast once. Get a knack for what makes them tick. How they affect the player's emotions.

Most of us here are avid gamers. I love all genres of gaming. But we dedicate and pay homage to shmups for many different reasons. I am excited to see developers like you take an interest in actually asking the hardcore what they like. Previous developers have killed the genre because they did not understand this. Granted It remains somewhat a niche, I feel it has potential. But that does need to be explained to the casual so they appreciate it.

Sine mora flopped by the standards here. But it did do one thing right. It appeased the mass market. You should aim for the appeal of sine mora, without the game breaking problems of sine mora. Others might not notice these issues. But veterans will. And that will give a game a short life span.

[trap15]

DDP sucks, don't bother with it. Play Flying Shark.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Sine Mora's mass market appeal consisted of its being pretty. That's about it; the mass market doesn't play shmups which is why we're never surprised by reviews complaining Giga Wing is too easy to credit feed (not realizing you miss a stage that way) or Deathsmiles takes only 30 minutes to 'beat'. The average gamer doesn't play shmups seriously, if at all. Shmups frankly don't seem like a particularly profitable genre to develop for.

But then a lot of Konami's older NES offerings are remembered fondly, so maybe something that appeals to 'retro' fans and keeps its mechanics simple while just offering a lot of characters Parodius style would sell well. Who knows?

[Illyrian]

You're seriously going to tell him to 1cc dodonpachi as his first attempt? Are you mental!?!?

Look at my signature. It's a list of shmups you can play as a total beginner. Skip Touhou and play Blue Wish Resurrection. It's forgiving enough with the number of hits you can take, has some really nice attack patterns, destroyable boss parts and a pretty nice soundtrack!

Just my idea anyway. Steer clear of any shmup on MAME. If you're like me you'll find them frustratingly difficult as a total beginner.

[mastermx]

I'm not saying he could on his first attempt. If you read my post properly, I said dependent on skill level it could take days or even months to 1cc a shmup. More specifically I said "try" and 1cc it. I have fun that way. To try and overcome an obstacle and slowly see the amazing progress you can make. This mentality helped me find this forum. If you don't try to go for the 1cc you just end up credit feeding. And credit feeding is the worst way to learn about the genre imho.

Now that you mention it though. Blue wish resurrection is the best thing to first start off with. It helps too that's it's free and it's just so customizable.

[XoPachi]

Why shouldn't he play Ikaruuuuuga?

Frankly nothing you make could be as bad as Sine Mora unless you also have rare 'joke' powerups that induce cutscene death via a falling piano. It's unique to Sine Mora and it's possibly the stupidest thing I've ever seen in a shmup.

Wait...WAT?

I was NOT aware of this. That actually fucking happened?

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Yep - there's a Youtube vid of it somewhere. Not sure how often it appears but it sounds like it's very rare, a small bluish, nondescript powerup triggers it and gives an achievement for it. Your plane stops, the HUD vanishes, you can't dodge or avoid the piano if you accidentally trigger it. It's not like Gradius where you can usually recover from a mistaken speedup use or accidental use of Oh!? in Parodius. You get it, you die, same as a normal death.

Vid here: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M4uLRVS_DLk

Based on comments it looks like it's rare but it can drop from enemies multiple times in a game like any other powerup (random powerups suck for various reasons).

[spadgy]

Hey ColloBollo - I'm just going to be a boringly particular mod and move this thread to our development section (of course, when there's stuff to talk about aside from development input, feel free to set up a separate thread in Shmups Chat!

And I'll sign up to give feedback too!

Also, have we met through work ColloBollo? I used to be editor of Develop magazine for a good while until recently; I met the team doing a Toki Tori game, maybe at a Dutch Game Garden party at GDC year or two ago? Maybe just at GDC? Maybe somewhere else? Maybe through Allesandra?

EDIT: Thread moved, and I've signed up!

[Ghastly]

I'm pretty new to the more hardcore side of shmups, but if a noob's perspective is of any use, the games that led me to develop a more serious interest in the genre include Bangai-O Spirits, Galaga, Galaxian, Space Invaders, Space Invaders Extreme, Asteroids, and more recently, Kokuga, Shoot the Bullet and Grind Stormer/V-V.

I don't know if that does you any good, but those were my gateway drugs to lurking these forums and sucking at hardcore shmups.