Building the best possible Windows XP machine.

[SuperDeadite]

So my lappy is on it's last legs. The LCD is dead, the battery is dead, the CMOS battery is dead, the fan sounds like a jet engine. However, I need an XP machine as newer OS's don't like the 16-bit programs I still use on a daily basis. Many of which are highly specialized for a lot of my retro computer hardware and have no modern version.

So it's time get a new machine. I want to build the best 32-bit XP Pro machine that I can. Mobo/CPU/GPU/RAM suggestions please.

[Udderdude]

Get something modern and run XP in a Virtual PC.

[SuperDeadite]

Will that actually work with 16-bit PCMCIA card readers? Just one example of stuff I still need to use.

[gct]

What I have done with my machine - maybe not modern by today's standards but it's Intel Sandy Bridge + H67:

I have my regular, daily stuff running on a Windows 7 single-boot. I disconnected all my daily hard drives, and plugged in a spare drive and installed XP to it. Then disconnected the XP drive and put all my regular stuff back.

Now whenever I want XP, I just plug in the spare drive via eSATA, and select that as the boot device from F11 or whatever it is. I don't have the XP drive connected all the time, and it doesn't mess up my boot partition.

It's a real XP installation and not a virtual PC - personally I didn't really have a good experience with virtualization, there were still a lot of old games and stuff that didn't like it, but keep in mind that was at least 5 years ago that I last tried.

[Ed Oscuro]

So my lappy is on it's last legs. The LCD is dead, the battery is dead, the CMOS battery is dead, the fan sounds like a jet engine.

Off topic a bit, but the only thing here that's likely to be troublesome is replacing the backlight (unless you mean the entire screen is dead). Main battery might be expensive but shouldn't be a problem, and the rest are easily fixable with a simple teardown and rebuild (fan noise is probably due to stuff clogging it).

About PCMCIA, I think you can use the following chain: USB to ExpressCard -> ExpressCard to PCMCIA adapter. I might just try that out someday to play around with my WAVjammer...

[ZellSF]

Windows 7 32-bit supports 16-bit programs almost as well as Windows XP does (I haven't found any differences yet). I would test it before deciding to stick with XP and I second the suggestion of dual booting if you have to. Also, VMware seems to supports PCMIA so other VMs might too.

If you can get all your 16-bit software running in a VM then that would be ideal, since then you could use 64-bit Windows and your important applications wouldn't be tied to a specific OS.

[Astraea FGA Mk. I]

What is your budget? You could just put together a capable desktop PC and dual boot into XP, or as others have suggested run it virtually in Windows 7.
It kind of sounds like you want a dedicated XP machine using either older parts or budget parts that have the required attributes, as it wouldn't need much power for your usage.
I tend to over-shoot these sorts of things and buy something rather premium that is capable of exceeding my requirements.

Perhaps get a micro-atx mobo and case and a budget/consumer model gpu and cpu, it will look nice, take up less space and exceed your requirements for just a few hundred dollars or less.

*edit* If you like the sound of the above solution get this sexy case
http://www.corsair.com/en-us/obsidian-s ... tx-pc-case

[Obiwanshinobi]

3D accelerator might be the trickiest part to choose right. Last year I put Gainward Bliss 7800 GS+ (AGP 512 RAM) in my XP machine as I wanted something pretty high-end for AGP. Chose nVidia, because I'd like to keep Crimson Skies playable (without fan-made patch it's all glitchy and the patch is only for nVidia hardware).
Having played maxed out Republic Commando for hours, I can tell the card does the job (just the kind of game I needed a beefier video card for). But then King's Bounty: Armored Princess crashes. The original Dungeon Siege crashes. We're talking blue screen here. Tried different drivers (the latest on nVidia page are no good at all), always coming back to the OEM that came with the card (most reliable).
I've kept Radeon 8500 on shelf, so I can always resort to a few years older high-end, but swapping graphics cards like that would be bothersome.

[SuperDeadite]

The main purpose of the machine is for a lot of old homebrew programs used in conjunction with X68000, FM Towns. I also still use Smart Media cards for MIDI files on a weekly basis, which XP sucks with, but I have a safe work around for them.

I just want to build an XP machine that should last for years to come, and I want to do it properly, hence the money is not such a concern. I'm just way out of the loop on CPUs and stuff. My old lappy has one of the very first Centrino Duos to be sold if I remember right. I can always get a modern system for more daily use, just after spending hours upon hours downloading stuff from Vector and reading page after page of Japanese readme files, I'm quite happy with my setup, and really don't want to have to go through it all again with an OS I'm not familiar with.

For PC games, Unreal Tournament is still fun, and I think Wheel of Time is the most demanding game I own. lol.

[ZellSF]

I wouldn't put a lot of money into something you're going to only use for legacy applications.

[cools]

If I was doing this I'd buy a couple of spare machines identical to what you have, except working and in good condition, keep them stored, and take a couple of HDD clones. Should be peanuts by now.

And get a more modern machine for day to day use.

[ED-057]

I want to build the best 32-bit XP Pro machine that I can. Mobo/CPU/GPU/RAM suggestions please.

Answer is entirely dependant on your definition of "best." Here it sounds like you are considering a desktop PC but you also mentioned a laptop and PCMCIA cards, so it is not entirely clear. (BTW, I have seen PCI cards which provide a Cardbus slot for desktops, although I have not used one.)

I have tried running Windows inside a VM and was not impressed. It's easier to just use another machine, and any old Pentium III can run XP.

[ZellSF]

A VM might be harder initially, but once you set it up you can run it on any computer easily (you don't have to find hardware that works well with a certain OS), you can back it up easily, run it multiple places easily etc.

If you want access to your legacy applications for many years to come, it's definitely the method I would recommend.

(I know this doesn't apply to games, but the legacy applications he's talking about aren't games).

[Ed Oscuro]

I don't think it's completely clear to SuperDeadite, so I'll say it: Windows Virtual PC is not guaranteed to be compatible, and doesn't have support for DirectX / Direct3D, and it won't provide hardware support for some devices. I don't know if that means PCMCIA, but tuners are not guaranteed to be compatible.

Source:
http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/wind ... 415ecdb5fe

As far as running XP, just get a good make of motherboard with polymer caps (basically any of them) and whatever CPU you want. Probably the new Atom / AMD Jaguar (or whatever) CPUs would be okay here, and aiming for a CPU with fewer cores should let you save money. I wouldn't bother getting a terribly recent video card, because I think many of them have dropped support for XP or require updates beyond what is needed (on the other hand, some very old video cards have no updates at all, which could actually be a plus as it means you're working with a known quantity / the only people likely to be issuing updates are enthusiasts).

Make sure your edition of Windows is 32-bit - Windows XP Pro 64-bit doesn't support 16-bit programs anymore.

Windows 7 32-bit supports 16-bit programs almost as well as Windows XP does

I missed this before - aside from 16-bit installers, does it have the video mode support and other stuff necessary to run something like Lucasarts' Outlaws?

Going with Windows 7 would vastly simplify a number of things. At the same time, I'm not sure there are many features of it that would be especially useful in an offline hobbyist computer...the file replace tool maybe, at a stretch.

Edit: Speaking of OS choices, some of the Forum members have had pretty good results running Linux with Wine, or something similar for Windows program support in a free environment. Can't beat that for a hobbyist use.

[SuperDeadite]

I think I'm probably just got start scoping out my Hardoff and find something there, and upgrade change parts as needed. Desktops are fine, I mentioned lappy as it's the only "modern" PC I have, but as stated, no battery and no LCD, so I use an external one and it's really just a desktop at this point.

The biggest issue with my current system is the fan is essentially dead so overheating problems galore in the summer. It's an old HP, and getting to anything besides the RAM/HDD is probably more trouble then it's worth. The optical drive seems to only work 2 out 3 times now lol. Been using this beast since 2006, so it's had a good life at least.

[ZellSF]

I don't think it's completely clear to SuperDeadite, so I'll say it: Windows Virtual PC is not guaranteed to be compatible, and doesn't have support for DirectX / Direct3D, and it won't provide hardware support for some devices. I don't know if that means PCMCIA, but tuners are not guaranteed to be compatible.

I don't think (and don't hope) that anyone is suggesting he's using Virtual PC, as like XP, it's not being supported any longer. I am suggesting he look at the alternatives and try them though, if he's going to have a setup that lasts for years for his legacy applications, it really is his best choice.

I missed this before - aside from 16-bit installers, does it have the video mode support and other stuff necessary to run something like Lucasarts' Outlaws?

Outlaws supports both Direct3D and Glide. Yes it works in Windows 7, and Windows 7 has support for all the video modes XP has.

Good luck getting it to work in XP/Vista/7/8 though: it works the same in all of them but there's a lot of compatibility issues to resolve in all of them. Speaking of Windows 8, that drops support for 16-bit applications entirely and also drops support for 8-bit and 16-bit color modes (it's still there, but emulated which might not play nice with hardware accelerated games).

Going with Windows 7 would vastly simplify a number of things. At the same time, I'm not sure there are many features of it that would be especially useful in an offline hobbyist computer...the file replace tool maybe, at a stretch.

I could list advantages of Windows 7 over XP forever... But they would all be specific to my usage cases so I don't really bother.

[SuperDeadite]

So I've been looking around. Here in Japan computers still cost quite a bit more than in the West for some odd reason, but shipping a system still makes it cheaper to buy locally. So I found an old Dell Optiplex for sale. Core i3, 4gb RAM, 500gb HDD. Has 2 PCIe slots 1 is a 16x if I ever really need to get dedicated GPU. Comes with Windows 7 Pro installed, but includes the original Dell XP Pro Recovery Disc, so if 7 gives me issues, I can also just get a different HDD and install XP Pro on it easily. Comes from a real store with a solid warranty, about $450.

Thoughts? Again this isn't for modern games. If it can run Half-Life 2 and Doom 3 I'll be quite happy with it.

[Ed Oscuro]

GPUs that can run DOOM III effectively at Ultra settings should be quite cheap even with a local bump-up in prices.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Hasn't Far Cry (the first one) been the ultimate benchmark for XP systems? Oh, I'm sure some games are more demanding (Gothic 3?), but - for instance - H-L2 on Steam already can't run on my CPU (faster than the one I played it on back in the day) and I can totally see Valve disabling XP support just because. Then I suppose something like modded Mount & Blade can hog all resources you throw at it. Then on PC where Doom 3 maxed out is playable in 1280x1024, Secret Weapons Over Normandy is anything but (on a CRT I happily resort to 640x480, but the game predates Doom 3 quite a bit).
(I think Doom 3 on highest settings demands at least 512 MB's worth of graphical RAM and the speed of memory may matter too.)

[SuperDeadite]

Ok so I decided on my hardware and have ordered that. I'm still on the fence about the OS though....

One of my most loved programs is Yamaha SOL, there is no replacement for it. The program was only released in Japan, however it does have English and chooses based on Window's language, which is helpful, as there are tons of options I still don't fully understand even in English. Here's the problem, being in Japan, Window is of course the Japanese version. (My old lappy is from the US) Windows 7 Ultimate is the only version with language switching.... XD

So either dish out for Ultimate, or dual-boot XP Pro and cheapest Win 7 I can find.

[Ed Oscuro]

Ultimate's language switching...ehh...there are definitely programs out there that will not play nicely with this, even with Applocale and "Run As Administrator in Japanese Locale." Now, probably some of these cases are tricky Japanese games of questionable moral content that are designed to refuse playing on non-Japanese OSes - so probably not any concern to you at all. But be aware that Microsoft seems to have left some loopholes in there, and the langugage switching still requires a reboot (and fucks up your non-unicode but English installers with strange mojibake-polluted install instructions, for example, until you switch back).

[SuperDeadite]

Currently, I run XP Pro USA version with it set to Japan for non-unicode programs, but English as default language. All Japanese software works fine, and I still get Windows to use English for everything that supports it, only Japanese only programs run in Japanese.

Now the question is, how does Win 7 Ultimate handle language switching? If I pick up the local Japanese version can I set it to display everything in English when the software supports it? If it works the same way, then I'm probably fine with Win 7 Ult + XP Mode. However if this won't work, I'm probably better off going dual-boot with real XP Pro.

[Ed Oscuro]

That has always been mysterious to me. Look here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_7_ ... ite_ref-52

It sure looks like Microsoft wants you to believe that you can't switch between languages. I sprung for Ultimate partly for this reason - but I honestly can't say what difference it has made, not having tested this functionality out with other versions.

[SuperDeadite]

Yeah according to Microsoft's help pages, language switching only works in Ultimate/Enterprise.

Anyone know how this affects XP Mode though? If you run Win 7 Pro (no language support), does XP Mode still have language options inside it as real XP Pro would?

[Ed Oscuro]

XP Mode isn't affected - and on top of that, I've been able to install both English and Japanese versions of the XP Mode installer (which is actually Virtual PC with a bundled-in hard drive image and maybe a couple other things). It does have some compatibility problems still, but probably nothing that would harm the programs you're talking about possibly trying to run in it (that wouldn't work from the regular Windows 7 installation). However, if Windows 7 32-bit won't run something, I'm not so sure XP Mode would.

[ZellSF]

Yeah according to Microsoft's help pages, language switching only works in Ultimate/Enterprise.

Anyone know how this affects XP Mode though? If you run Win 7 Pro (no language support), does XP Mode still have language options inside it as real XP Pro would?

XP only allows you to change locale. System language is always restricted to the XP version you have. There's nothing preventing you from installing the version of XP you're using now in another VM to make sure you have the correct language version of it.

Windows 7 Ultimate and Enterprise also allows you to change system language, which is different from locale entirely. It's possible to change this in other versions of Windows 7, but it's not supported by Microsoft (possibly risky and against the EULA).

You can change system locale in all versions of Windows. This is what you change with applocale.