Why Kojima fails

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Skykid
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Why Kojima fails

Post by Skykid »

I'm an aggressive critic of entertainment media, can't help it. I'm also a staunch believer that Hideo Kojima's talents and legacy are pretty fucking overrated to say the least. This isn't necessarily because of his games, but all the bumph they come wrapped in. My primary criticism: no editing ability.

In today's interview with Eurogamer the following was put to him, a wonderfully perfect question and most certainly the one I would have asked, probably in harsher tones:

"I tell him my view on the matter is based on a quote by Roger Ebert: "No good movie is too long and no bad movie is short enough," and apply the same principle to cut-scenes. This being the case, I suggest that some of Metal Gear's cut-scenes are too long to convey what they need to."

His response:
Kojima wrote:"Ultimately, it's what I believe," he says. "It comes down to what I think. If I think it's too long, I cut it short. That said, of course we rely on focus groups, on monitoring, on testing. I try to get all the information that I can. But another thing that's very important is we always need to regulate how much information we give to the player. How much are we stacking the player with information? And for cut-scenes - especially for briefing - it's kind of necessary."
This paints a thousand words. I know some of you like his lead-weighted, forty-minute self-indulgences and OTT personal meme waving, but for me whatever cinematic good he managed with the likes of Snatcher has been drowned from MGS2 onward. There's great stuff in there, but I can't abide all the endless twaddle you have to sit through to see it.

His answer illustrates that he doesn't actually know when something is too much. He has focus groups and feedback, and doesn't pay attention. His story lines make little to no practical sense: they're verbose in the criminal. If you've ever looked at the MGS series files and tried to draw sense of the timeline activities, it's akin to pulling fingernails out.

I think it's a shame, personally - he certainly has some vision - but I'm really, really happy clarification for this came from the horses' mouth.

Just to note: I'm not discussing the MGS games. I've already made my feelings clear on that. It's just about Hideo as a celebrated creative.

Full interview here:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014- ... deo-kojima
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Cagar
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Re: Why Kojima fails

Post by Cagar »

So, what?
You made a thread about you disliking Kojima, or one of his interview answers to be specific?
I dislike the cutscenes too, btw.
But what's your purpose with this thread?
To spread shit about Kojima?
The thread title, "Why Kojima fails" is also kind of inaccurate as he most certainly hasn't "failed"
except for your tastes apparently
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Re: Why Kojima fails

Post by Bananamatic »

kojima world order
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Re: Why Kojima fails

Post by Skykid »

Thanks for that intelligent response cagar. You can troll this forum without even trying, it's awesome. :lol:

Not sure why any clarification needed really, but:

His response is interesting. I waited forever for someone to ask this specific question and suggest a failure in his ability to compose a successful narrative. His answer is really telling, and fascinating imo.

Of course my suggesting a failure isn't in a commercial sense, are you just being daft or what?
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Re: Why Kojima fails

Post by KAI »

He's trying to tell a ("complicated") Sci-fi story using an action game. He's not failing, he's just using the wrong media.
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Re: Why Kojima fails

Post by Skykid »

KAI wrote:He's trying to tell a ("complicated") Sci-fi story using an action game. He doesn't fail, he's just using the wrong media.
Then 2 questions:

- Isn't using the wrong medium a schoolboy error that constitutes a failure?

- You then agree that he fails to form a successful narrative because he's using the wrong media to tell it?

If the answer to both of the above is yes, then we're in absolute agreement.
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Re: Why Kojima fails

Post by Sly Cherry Chunks »

You are one smug git, Skykid.

Can't say I don't agree though. I dropped MG series after the first playstation one, which was drivel.

I want to love ZOE because of the great visuals and setting - but the gameplay and story are barely noteworthy. I only played 2nd Runner last year too. What a horrific disappointment. Might still buy the toys though.
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Re: Why Kojima fails

Post by Kaiser »

I think the biggest fault of Kojima is that he doesn't opt for something different in MG series by himself, something unrelated to the clusterfuck he created past 15 years. I understand Konami wants him to keep on making MGS games but come the fuck on, we don't need anything after MGS4 to KEEP DIGGING the same fucking story in different time periods. We know how it starts, we know how it ends. MGS2 has to be one of biggest piles of confusing shit i've ever seen, no wonder it took SO MANY hours of cutscenes in MGS4 to explain, because Kojima felt HAD to explain though it didn't make any sense. It all boils down to "Nanomachines, son" and "12 old men ruling the world", really.

IMO cutting all the chains and letting him write some fresh MG universe material not related to anything else would work best.

Metal Gear Rising doesn't count (as much as I love it) by the way.
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Re: Why Kojima fails

Post by Skykid »

Sly Cherry Chunks wrote:You are one smug git, Skykid.
Thanks. :mrgreen:

But seriously, I'm not sure that's what I was going for here. You and I are in agreement, it's just that I've been a long time drum banging against a tidal wave of praise in the other direction regarding his 'genius', as people like to call it. Kojima is one of the most revered figures in gaming, and I'm not sure what he's really done to deserve that.

Hearing the guy basically admit to ignoring his sources and not being able to discern what's a good editing practice is kind of profound. For me anyhow.
Kaiser wrote:I think the biggest fault of Kojima is that he doesn't opt for something different in MG series by himself, something unrelated to the clusterfuck he created past 15 years. I understand Konami wants him to keep on making MGS games but come the fuck on, we don't need anything after MGS4 to KEEP DIGGING the same fucking story in different time periods. We know how it starts, we know how it ends. MGS2 has to be one of biggest piles of confusing shit i've ever seen, no wonder it took SO MANY hours of cutscenes in MGS4 to explain, because Kojima felt HAD to explain though it didn't make any sense. It all boils down to "Nanomachines, son" and "12 old men ruling the world", really.

This completely. It's really, really bad.

It would be nice to see him let the poor series die peacefully and focus on a new ip. Unfortunately it seems MGS is all he's got.
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Re: Why Kojima fails

Post by Blinge »

K-K-Kojima world order!
Kaiser wrote:
IMO cutting all the chains and letting him write some fresh MG universe material not related to anything else would work best.
Which is why MGS3 is my favourite. Hey, did you notice that guy slinging lightning from his hands in #3? Also notice how it's never been explained in any MGS game? Well guess what: that's okay. That can be left unexplained and the series doesn't suffer for it.

It's possible to agree with Skykid's evaluation of Kojima and still be a devout MGS fan, I know I am. For those who can suspend both their disbelief and critical voice, it's a really rewarding experience to become fully invested and just enjoy the clusterfuck ride. Still, MGS4 took it way too far, it seems Konami didn't let anyone edit his script at all.

Peace Walker was a step in the right direction; with most of the dialogue taking place in optional "briefing" tapes that the player can listen to at their leisure.

You're not a lone voice, Skykid, I see plenty of anti kojima sentiment in my internet trawling
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Re: Why Kojima fails

Post by Skykid »

Blinge wrote:
You're not a lone voice, Skykid, I see plenty of anti kojima sentiment in my internet trawling
Well I'm rarely privy to it.

For me I always try to look past the clusterfuck of the narrative to jist enjoy the experience, as you said, but it becomes intrusive because it's thickening in confusion rather than coming clear.

I went into MGS4 with good intentions, and enjoyed it as much as possible, but by the second half it was utterly obscene. And the ending... I think I let out a sigh of dissapointment about half way through, and then sat through the next hour shaking my head until the credits rolled.
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Re: Why Kojima fails

Post by trap15 »

I agree pretty wholeheartedly with Blinge on this. I really liked MGS1 and 3. Not so much 2, but I think that may be more because I don't really like Raiden.

But holy fuck MGS4 is a goddamn train wreck. The ending in particular makes me really angry because the last fight is really great :?
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Re: Why Kojima fails

Post by drauch »

Sly Cherry Chunks wrote:Can't say I don't agree though. I dropped MG series after the first playstation one, which was drivel.
Same here. While I do enjoy the first one, I've already had enough. I've watched friends play all the others and I have no desire whatsoever. So glad this forum isn't completely loaded with staunch Kojima worshipers. Seems like the rest of the world/internet has their head up his convoluted ass.
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Re: Why Kojima fails

Post by Blinge »

drauch wrote: . So glad this forum isn't completely loaded with staunch Kojima worshipers.
Can't imagine shmup fans are that enamoured with long cutscenes...
..speaking of Konami - I almost burst a blood vessel with impatience during that minute long gradius V cutscene, every time. Once i managed to take a piss in that interval, even washed my hands! :mrgreen:
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Re: Why Kojima fails

Post by Cagar »

Skykid wrote:Thanks for that intelligent response cagar.
No, thank you for making this thread about your opinion on Kojima's answer to some interview question :lol:
You could've at least made this as "Official MGS-thread" or something and hide your opinions in there, but making a whole thread just because you're upset about Kojima's videogame-philosophies seems selfish.
Sly Cherry Chunks wrote:You are one smug git, Skykid.
This was pretty much my point. This forum isn't your personal blog & newsletter-place, dude :?
If everyone made threads about their own interests and opinions, this place (like any other forum) would be hell.

and something on subject:
I can't take the MGS-universe or story seriously, no matter how hard I try. The Japponeese humor makes my immersion-meter completely empty.
Also, cutscenes suck, and Kojima.
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Re: Why Kojima fails

Post by Jonathan Ingram »

MGS2 is Kojima's crown achievement that stands far above anything else he has ever done. Thirteen years after its release, there's still nothing on the market that could challenge its boldness and audacity in denying the existing conventions and shaping the story according to its own rules and them only without an ounce of regard for the player's sentiments and convictions.

MGS4 failed at explaining anything about MGS2, because it's an entirely self-contained story that wasn't meant to be explained or continued. Postmodernism, which MGS2 is the brightest example of, isn't really meant to be explained in clear cut terms.
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Re: Why Kojima fails

Post by Skykid »

drauch wrote:Seems like the rest of the world/internet has their head up his convoluted ass.
Well holy shit. I really thought it was just me, especially on this forum. Whenever I've alluded to as much in the past it's usually been against a firing squad.

Personally I don't think MGS series are actually great games. Good concepts often spoiled by outdated control mechanisms, but driven by some admittedly enjoyable set-pieces and cool characters (bar Raiden - the first of Kojima's major examples of misunderstanding his audience.)

I do really like PSX MGS though. The controls were actually appropriately designed for the time and it's generally succinct. There's a little too much girth in the codec conversations but the pace is good enough to keep the hits coming, the tension in check, and the action flowing from one cool cliché to the next. A bit like Snatcher.

The cutscenes are cinematic and don't outstay their welcome by 30 minutes, and the story, although still convoluted, is crystal clear in comparison to its successors.

I tend to think brevity is a virtue, which is why the series now feels so irrecoverably bloated.

But then, this interview shines a light on all these things. I feel like Kojima is a marginally talented movie director with far too big a budget to play with, surrounded by too many yes men to take stock of good advice.

@Cagar, give it a rest man. It's just a talking point ffs. Forums are about opinion and subsequent discussion, so let's do so without your silly sniping.
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Re: Why Kojima fails

Post by Skykid »

Jonathan Ingram wrote:MGS2 is Kojima's crown achievement that stands far above anything else he has ever done. Thirteen years after its release, there's still nothing on the market that could challenge its boldness and audacity in denying the existing conventions and shaping the story according to its own rules and them only without an ounce of regard for the player's sentiments and convictions.

MGS4 failed at explaining anything about MGS2, because it's an entirely self-contained story that wasn't meant to be explained or continued. Postmodernism, which MGS2 is the brightest example of, isn't really meant to be explained in clear cut terms.
It's a hopeless and unutterable narrative failure of the most catastrophic kind: thinking it's clever certainly doesn't make it so.

Hideo Kojima is a wannabee trying to apply ridiculous philosophical/artistic aspirations far beyond his ability to a medium where it simply doesn't work. Shoehorning in seventy-five completely bewildering wrongs will never make a right.

I read a several page essay someone linked to ages ago on MGS2's "meanings". It was like sifting through several pages of someone interpreting total crap with more total crap. Kojima can't just go from ripping off popular, highly commercial Hollywood material, to being a respected artisan by way of incomprehensibility!

I respect your ability to think, but with this I vehemently disagree. Kojima is no Kubrick or Welles, he has neither the aptitude or ability to keep focus, and MGS2 is not at all successful in what it thinks its trying to do. Who really cares about postmodernism and existentialist philosophy in their stealth action gaming when it's so remarkably cocked up and tryhard?

Do not read into that man's convolutions. You'll just end up convincing yourself there's something of value, and that's exactly what he's hoping for, less you notice that it's actually all just well-executed, poorly written drivel.
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Re: Why Kojima fails

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ChurchOfSolipsism wrote:I'll make sure I'll download it illegally one day...
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Re: Why Kojima fails

Post by nosorrow »

The only game of his I played is the memorable Snatcher - it's also one of my favourites.

The only other I'm interested to try out - in English - is Policenauts. Too bad it has never been re-released on an official platform. The Metal Gear games have never appealed to me, even the NES ones. The idea of stealth in video games bores me to tears, but to each their own.
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Re: Why Kojima fails

Post by Edmond Dantes »

Kaiser wrote:no wonder it took SO MANY hours of cutscenes in MGS4 to explain, because Kojima felt HAD to explain though it didn't make any sense.
You do realize Kojima only did MGS4 because he was getting death threats, right?
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Re: Why Kojima fails

Post by Ed Oscuro »

As I said in the non-Shmup, non-FPS, non-NES and Genesis action miscs game thread, I've been playing through my first Metal Gear since Solid on the PSX, in the form of Peace Walker for the PSP.

Some of the usual memes that drive me up the wall were there at the start (WOW I'M JAPANESE. WOW MY NAME MEANS PEACE TOO!) but that was actually an early outlier, of the missions I've played so far. Some missions have too many cutscenes to skip through for replays, but a number of these probably shouldn't be replayed anyway (i.e. the first APC battle, which can jack up Amanda's wounds status big time...didn't see any reason to capture that model of LAV instead of the BTR you can get a while after).

Snake's "I'm an..." moments were rather funny, I thought. The discussion about his camera reminded me a little bit of Christopher Walken in Dogs of War (though Walken's character made sure to at least have a zoom lens, albeit a too-small one). Yes, being able to develop a '90s Walkman (the WM-EX88) seems pretty strange, as do plenty of other things.

Anyway, I'm not yet alienated from the idea that Kojima might shit the bed with this one's story, but we'll see - it's been a lot better in that respect (mainly low-key) than I had thought it might be.

If there is something that annoys, it's probably the sense that the games are starting to eat their elders. If there was a Metal Gear game set in the 1600s, there'd be a Metal Gear in it, no matter how improbable. The Vocaloid stuff is cute though.
Skykid wrote:Hideo Kojima is a wannabee trying to apply ridiculous philosophical/artistic aspirations far beyond his ability
This applies to every artist ever (even Socrates got in a dig about this). You also don't want real philosophers trying to write a story, either...for example, Judith Butler has introduced many fascinating ideas to philosophy, but even fellow philosophers have a hard time understanding her writing.
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Re: Why Kojima fails

Post by Edmond Dantes »

Honestly most of what I would say on this topic has already been said by this guy (Part 2 especially goes into how outside influences played to the dwindling quality of the MGS series) and various articles on The Snake Soup.

Seriously, watch that.
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Re: Why Kojima fails

Post by trap15 »

Nintendo Saturn wrote:The only game of his I played is the memorable Snatcher - it's also one of my favourites.
The plot and setting are pretty much entirely ripped from Blade Runner/Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep. So it says a bit about Kojima's writing :P
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Re: Why Kojima fails

Post by drauch »

trap15 wrote:
Nintendo Saturn wrote:The only game of his I played is the memorable Snatcher - it's also one of my favourites.
The plot and setting are pretty much entirely ripped from Blade Runner/Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep. So it says a bit about Kojima's writing :P
And the android design is clearly from Terminator.
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Re: Why Kojima fails

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trap15 wrote:I really liked MGS1 and 3. Not so much 2, but I think that may be more because I don't really like Raiden.
I also really liked MGS1 and 3, as well as MGS2 (I did like Raiden), Metal Gear 2 on the MSX, and VR Missions. I've argued the strengths of those games with Skykid before.

But I'm going to do that today, because I've been playing Policenauts.

My save file tells me I'm more than five hours in. More than five hours of mind-numbing tedium. Imagine Star Wars if everything needed to be explained...

Uncle Owen: What I really need is a droid who understands the binary language of moisture vaporators.
C-3PO: Vaporators, sir?
Uncle Owen: Devices that collect moisture from the air. Since this whole planet's a desert, water can be sold for a modest profit. I also use it to grow small amounts of vegetables and mushrooms.
C-3PO: And droid, sir?
Uncle Owen: It's actually short for android, though most droids don't have a man-like appearance. They're robots designed for specific tasks to assist people. Shouldn't you know this crap, since you're a droid?
C-3PO: Yes, sir, and my first job was programming binary load lifters, very similar to your vaporators in most respects.
Uncle Owen: Binary load lifters?

Your setting isn't that weird, Kojima. It's a space colony. You don't need to tell us why some plants have metal plates on them and some don't.
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Re: Why Kojima fails

Post by Some-Mist »

Sly Cherry Chunks wrote:I want to love ZOE because of the great visuals and setting - but the gameplay and story are barely noteworthy. I only played 2nd Runner last year too. What a horrific disappointment. Might still buy the toys though.
I love ZOE2 :/
I actually got chills from the intro when
Spoiler
dingo is on the brink of death

actually, the only titles I thoroughly enjoyed from Kojima are Snatcher and ZOE2. I played through MGS1, MGS2, MGS3, MGS4, and MGS:PW, and although they are definitely worth the playthrough, I'm not really the biggest fan.
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Re: Why Kojima fails

Post by Strider77 »

This thread is bait... Just let it die. I've been sucked in before.
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Re: Why Kojima fails

Post by ColonelFatso »

I ended up quite liking ZoE and the 2nd Runner (a little bit less due to excessive length and gimmicky boss battles), but it was DEFINITELY not for any narrative element. I couldn't bring myself to like even a single one of the characters and the plot seemed highly contrived and distanced from any sort of nuance or even plausibility whatsoever.

But the pace of play and the look and feel of your typical boss battle? That's the stuff of legends.

Have not played any Metal Gear games. They don't really seem my type.
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Re: Why Kojima fails

Post by replayme »

Strider77 wrote:This thread is bait... Just let it die. I've been sucked in before.
Read Skykid's original statement. Went back to looking forward to the new Metal Gear...
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